Time to admit India future World Power

[Bushroda]

WTF ? I just posted an article from an Australian on an Australian news site. The only thing Indian in it is that its about India. Why are people after me ? Its a freakin article. Go sue the writer and stop busting my balls.

I have a funny feeling that half the people commenting on this thread have not even read the article.

Because you are the messenger. The bringer of the evil news

and so you shall be crucified.

 

[Keysersoze]

Because you are the messenger. The bringer of the evil news

and so you shall be crucified.

Yes.......... Here we do shoot the messenger!

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I just think that India just has an inflated image of itself. None of its neighbours will recognize it as preeminent in the region and most consider it a nuisance. This reality is reflected in Howard's approach to India.

 

[Adux]

Really That is why we have Haneef back home, while lots of innocent pakistani's and bangladeshi are toiling in gautanamo bay and other european run prisons....

Wouldnt you jump at the offer of an Indian citizenship.....

 

[Keysersoze]

TIME OUT!!!! CAN WE PLEASE TAKE A BREAK FROM THE MUNSHI VS THE INDIANS THING IN THIS THREAD PLEASE!

 

[Bull]

TIME OUT!!!! CAN WE PLEASE TAKE A BREAK FROM THE MUNSHI VS THE INDIANS THING IN THIS THREAD PLEASE!

He is asking for it, why is that you are not seeing that? his only and only job is to post 10,000 word articles from some bazooka websites.

 

[Adux]

Keyser you are training your guns on the wrong people, I know for certain that you are sane, i also am pretty sure that you can make out a crazy when you see one.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I have posted on other threads that have nothing to do with India. Why all this paranoia?

We all know if it was a straight fight of Munshi vs. India - Munshi would win hands down .....

 

[intruder]

We all know if it was a straight fight of Munshi vs. India - Munshi would win hands down .....

Welcome Munshi the 'terminator'

 

[bhangra12345]

Mr.Niaz,
I agree with most of the points you said in that post, except for a few.

It is called neo-coloniasm, but it works. India is way behind in this. Indian economy has no doubt taken off. Indian pyche is however not quite free of its colonial past. If India wants Security Council seat; all she has to do is to agree to hold an internationally monitored refrendom in Kashmir. Does any one really think that majority of sane Kashmiri muslims would like to live with a talibanized Pakistan???. But India wont agree to it. Even if the worst happens, is it the end of the world??. In simple words India lacks magnanimity, one of the essentials of a world power.

I have never understood this magnanimity principle. This principle has been repeated by both Pakistan and Bangladesh asking India to follow it. I, personally (call me selfish, I dont care) will show magnanimity in cases like to my younger siblings (they should at the same time respect me and not do anything against me) or say to beggars. I will never show magnanimity to a person who tries to get one upon me wherever possible.

Definitely Pakistan is not a beggar state when compared to India. We are just a little better off but thats about it. Is Pakistan ready to come under India's clout and work under that umbrella? No, so where is the question of magnanimity?

If you want to be treated as an equal expect the same equal-equal treatment in all aspects and not ask for magnanimity in some cases. In an equal-equal treatment, if you want something from us, you need to have something which we want. If you dont have anything to give us, we are definitely not running charities here.

I never saw any Indian asking china to be magnanimous and return aksai chin to us?

This doesnt mean that as a Pakistani I would like Indian hegemony.

Without hegemony or dominance in one form or the other, dont expect magnanimity. simple rules of any international politics. I didnt see US giving money to east germany during cold war. All the european countries to which it gave aid under marshall plan were asked/forced to join nato. X wanting a free bie from Y has to come under Y's hegemony. There are no free lunches in this world.

Why was the green revolution start in India? During the PL-480's food aid in 1960s, India was roundly humiliated and was treated as a half beggar. Humiliations were the price India paid for getting food for free.

India definitely has the potential to be a world power but she is long way off. Firstly India has to start economic aid in a big way. Look at Japan, despite having US bases on its soil, Japan invested heavily in the Eastern Soviet Union. For example, India can start with sunbcontracting part of its growing IT business to Pakistan and Bangla Desh. Do you think that If Pakistan was earning $4 to 5 - billion per year from Indian IT hand out, she will refuse handing over Dawood Ibrahim to India, knowing that to decline the request would cost a lot of hard cash and jobs.

Actually this is the problem we are saying to you. Yes, kashmir is a major issue between us. Right now both of us are not finding any middle ground. When we create interdependencies say through economics, we are bound to get to a stage, where emotions will run low. We have given MFN status for Pakistan long-long ago. It was Pakistan obligation, duty, and not something to be giving alms to give us the MFN status to us. But as of today, Pakistan is not fulfulling its commitments on the treaty it signed. Without having this status, trade between India and Pakistan is a non-starter.

Regarding Bangladesh, the less said the better, upto now, I have not understood the reasons why the tatas bid was rejected.

 

[Keysersoze]

He is asking for it, why is that you are not seeing that? his only and only job is to post 10,000 word articles from some bazooka websites.

Keyser you are training your guns on the wrong people, I know for certain that you are sane, i also am pretty sure that you can make out a crazy when you see one.

Gentlemen I am not taking sides on this one merely asking that the differences you guys have do not spill over into every thread.

I would suggest Bull that you take apart the "bazooka" websites in your rebuttals. Attack the message not the messenger.

OR

Let the articles die on the vine. A good way to look at it, is to say that you guys are giving lots of publicity to something you hate....

 

[niaz]

Mr.Niaz,
I agree with most of the points you said in that post, except for a few.


I have never understood this magnanimity principle. This principle has been repeated by both Pakistan and Bangladesh asking India to follow it. I, personally (call me selfish, I dont care) will show magnanimity in cases like to my younger siblings (they should at the same time respect me and not do anything against me) or say to beggars. I will never show magnanimity to a person who tries to get one upon me wherever possible.

Definitely Pakistan is not a beggar state when compared to India. We are just a little better off but thats about it. Is Pakistan ready to come under India's clout and work under that umbrella? No, so where is the question of magnanimity?

If you want to be treated as an equal expect the same equal-equal treatment in all aspects and not ask for magnanimity in some cases. In an equal-equal treatment, if you want something from us, you need to have something which we want. If you dont have anything to give us, we are definitely not running charities here.

I never saw any Indian asking china to be magnanimous and return aksai chin to us?



Without hegemony or dominance in one form or the other, dont expect magnanimity. simple rules of any international politics. I didnt see US giving money to east germany during cold war. All the european countries to which it gave aid under marshall plan were asked/forced to join nato. X wanting a free bie from Y has to come under Y's hegemony. There are no free lunches in this world.

Why was the green revolution start in India? During the PL-480's food aid in 1960s, India was roundly humiliated and was treated as a half beggar. Humiliations were the price India paid for getting food for free.



Actually this is the problem we are saying to you. Yes, kashmir is a major issue between us. Right now both of us are not finding any middle ground. When we create interdependencies say through economics, we are bound to get to a stage, where emotions will run low. We have given MFN status for Pakistan long-long ago. It was Pakistan obligation, duty, and not something to be giving alms to give us the MFN status to us. But as of today, Pakistan is not fulfulling its commitments on the treaty it signed. Without having this status, trade between India and Pakistan is a non-starter.

Regarding Bangladesh, the less said the better, upto now, I have not understood the reasons why the tatas bid was rejected.

Hon sir,

Magnanimity means forgiveness or being generous towards a rival or enemy. Please dont confuse it with charity. Therefore you would never be magnanimous towards a beggar but only towards your enenemy or a sibling who has hurt you badly. This is also part of strategic vision as mentioned by Hon Addux. It has to be onesided else it would be 'quid pro quo' that is a favour in return of a favour.

After WW2 US gave very generous aid to Germany and Japan. Now US firms are investing heavily in Vietnam. France and Germany were bitter enemies for centuries. Now you can cross over from one country to another without even stopping at a check post.

Indian pysche is still its colonial past, some parties such BJP even want to take revenge of what Baber did half a millenia ago!! If India wants to realize its dream of a World Power; she has to be magnanimous to her smaller neighbours. Else India would only be perceived as a bully. It is not being equal, it is about being "more equal" among equals.

Nevertheless, no nation invests heavily in other countries and gives generous aid without some strategic or tactical advantage. US is a super power why??. Only a telephone call made Pakistan do her bidding. This also helps the aid giving country as well. When you give aid or invest in other countries; it opens the doors for marketing your goods in that country, thereby helping your workers thru job creation. Even virtual grants such as PL-480 are in fact a sudsidy to US industry as ony US produced goods will be given. Once a country accepts such a aid, it automatically implies hegemony. Why do you think Mush took action against Lal Mashid ??. Because Chinese President called Mush and asked him to provide better protection of Chinese citizens. Power only means imposing your will on others and best battles or those that are won without firing a single shot.

Your post reflects current Indian thinking. You have to get out this mindset.
India will never become a World Power until such time that it shows one sided generosity. I repeat that I wouldnot want India to be generous as I wouldnt want Pakistan to be indirectly looking up to India. But that is another matter.

 

[bhangra12345]

Hon sir,

Magnanimity means forgiveness or being generous towards a rival or enemy. Please dont confuse it with charity. Therefore you would never be magnanimous towards a beggar but only towards your enenemy or a sibling who has hurt you badly. This is also part of strategic vision as mentioned by Hon Addux. It has to be onesided else it would be 'quid pro quo' that is a favour in return of a favour.

You can be generous to a rival or enemy when you know that the enemy recognises that you are being magnanimous. You are stressing on the point that the higher rival has to be such and such but implicitly you are assuming that the lesser enemy will not take advantage of the magnanimity and try to bite back again.

During the 1971 war for bangladesh independence, did we gain even one inch of real estate? Did we gain any rupee? We had to spend billions for the war and for the refugees. We had approximately 4000 soldiers dead. Did we take any inch of land from the area of bangladesh which we had conquered? No. Was this not magnanimity of the highest order where we sent our soldiers for someone else? But in return what do we get? The vile and hatred from people like Akanda and Munshi. Looking back I just get a feeling we should let these people *** and force the refugees arriving, back into BD and let them face the music from the PA.

After WW2 US gave very generous aid to Germany and Japan. Now US firms are investing heavily in Vietnam. France and Germany were bitter enemies for centuries. Now you can cross over from one country to another without even stopping at a check post.

Yet you gloss over the things which they did. They forced Japan to have a pacifist constitution with complete security under US nuclear umbrella. Without this thing, I can bet that not a single dollar would have gone. France and West Germany were made part of NATO, sir, then they were given dollars. US gave money to west germany not to east germany,

When did france and Germany become friends? When they had the scourge of USSR on them which had half of germany with them. When half of the country is already lost, what is the point in bickering over 1% of lands. Also both france and germany were completely destroyed by WW2. Both of them did not have any energy to fight more. Wait for more 20 years, the EU is already showing signs of weakness. I am not sure about their friendship for future, unless something profound and scary threat to both of them happens.

Indian pysche is still its colonial past, some parties such BJP even want to take revenge of what Baber did half a millenia ago!! If India wants to realize its dream of a World Power; she has to be magnanimous to her smaller neighbours. Else India would only be perceived as a bully. It is not being equal, it is about being "more equal" among equals.

Do you see this talk about being magnanimous and other crap from US? Did they look after Pakistan in 90s when it had no use to US. Again see, the talk about "more equal" or anything like that. If you are "more equal", you are more than him, what the heck is "more equal". This "more equals" are useful for philosophies, not for real life and politik.

Nevertheless, no nation invests heavily in other countries and gives generous aid without some strategic or tactical advantage. US is a super power why??. Only a telephone call made Pakistan do her bidding. This also helps the aid giving country as well. When you give aid or invest in other countries; it opens the doors for marketing your goods in that country, thereby helping your workers thru job creation. Even virtual grants such as PL-480 are in fact a sudsidy to US industry as ony US produced goods will be given. Once a country accepts such a aid, it automatically implies hegemony. Why do you think Mush took action against Lal Mashid ??. Because Chinese President called Mush and asked him to provide better protection of Chinese citizens.

In the telephone call, what did they say? They said "bloody idiot, if you dont agree to us, you will be bombed back to stone age". Only under the threat did Pakistan agree. Actually this suits it, might is right- f*ck all magnanimity.

Power only means imposing your will on others and best battles or those that are won without firing a single shot.

Nice quote, it is without firing a single shot, not without giving a single threat.

Your post reflects current Indian thinking. You have to get out this mindset.
India will never become a World Power until such time that it shows one sided generosity. I repeat that I wouldnot want India to be generous as I wouldnt want Pakistan to be indirectly looking up to India. But that is another matter.

The young generation of India has come to this thinking only because we are tired of our one-sided magnanimity, which took us no where. We have here, on this forum, people talking about bangladesh and pakistan joining against India. Pakistan is a different case. After all we have done to Bangladesh, is it too much to expect from them, just plain goodwill? Nothing more. We could have got all the territory from them in 1971, we dont want it even now. When we give our hands of friend ship to china in 1956 and allowed them to occupy tibet(when we had a treaty to protect tibet), we got 1962. We were the leaders initially of the NAM movement, did it take us anywhere? The moment we were defeated in 1962, all our NAM respect went into the air. When we give lahore bus, the return is kargil. We go into srilanka, which was not our battle in anyway and have more than 1000 killed and what did we get in return? When this is the case, how long do you think this 1-sided MAGNANIMITY to continue. We went and returned Maldives completely back to the government without even staying there for 1 day required. How much more magnanimity can one show to our smaller neighbours? We never ask for bases there. we dont have security agreements with any of them(except bhutan). Yet!! Yet!!

The young generation simply thought this yet is enough.

 

[blitz]

Fear is a more powerful tool than Magnanimity.

 

[blain2]

Fear is a more powerful tool than Magnanimity.

Right but it does not work in the case of Pakistan and India.