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Time for German military to take more active role?

The night march is not a Nazi creation, however, it was a Prussian military tradition. It predates even the rise of the Nazi Party , or even Adolf Hitler.

Let's examine, shall we?

This symbolizes the beauty of German military tradition.


Note: The Prussian Eagle in their banner, compare that to the Imperial Prussian Eagle:

5323860934_766ed27ffe.jpg
Germanys neighbors are very sensitive about this stuff, it may look exaggerated from outside but they have their reasons believe me.

thats why italy is beautiful. We dont allow immigrants among us. They are put in ghettos.
Oh boy such a statement from a half German half Italian, Adolf and Benito would be proud of you. :confused:
 
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I speak for myself, not for evryone. Individualism is something many oriental cultures lack i guess. Italy is safe, secure and in no danger. Give me a reason why i should join military?
let us say there is a war would you join the army ?
 
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Too few soldiers, too little time: the People's Army of the GDR could win West Germany and throughout one week to reach the borders of the Netherlands, according to a former general of the Bundeswehr .
Kalter Krieg: Warum die NVA den Westen erobert hätte - DIE WELT
But this is dateless (to what particular time, moment in history, is his remark referring?) and has NOTHING to do with Prussia...... I've already addressed the issues of available strategic depth and the position of NVA within the context of Warsaw Pact.

Gen. Johann-Adolf Count von Kielmansegg, a German panzer division officer during World War II who became commander in chief of NATO forces in Central Europe during the height of the cold war, died on May 26 [2006] in Bonn. He was 99.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/world/europe/04kielmansegg.html?fta=y&_r=0
 
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After WW2, Germany was in shambles and divided. France, US, UK, Soviet

The Soviets renegaded on their promises to allow democratic processes in E. Europe.

The US pressured the Brits and French to unify the democratic sections of West Germany. The French only accepted after the US threatened to withdraw the Nuclear Umbrella, and the threat of Soviet invasion. Even after, France had to be pressured to allow West Germany to rearm. Easier for Germans to kill Germans, than kill the French.

East Germans have feared the Military and the Security Establishment, those that are still alive to remember the days of the DPR. While Western Germans are more interested in

The Ukraine fiasco has freaked out the Germans. The overly overt US aggressive stance while not having much to lose has sueded Merkel to pursue a more independent policy.

US-Russia Relations
1. US Missle Defense Shield, Russia pissed off they see it as trying to hamper it's Nuclear retaliatory abilities.
2. Crimea, you all know..
3. Oil Prices, Russia sees the US pressuring Arab OPEC to decrease prices.
4. N. Korea, Russia sees the US attempting to completely isolate it. And the N. Korean erratic responses as nonconstructive.
5. Russia-Japan, Russians want those islands it sees the US presence and undesired after WW2 to hand the islands over to the Soviets as a slap to the face.

US-German
1. US supported German rearmament and unification, they felt betrayed when the Germans didn't participate in the Gulf War.
2. War on Terror, US delighted that Germany took active role.
3. Iraq, Germany was leader in opposing the war.
4. Remember MEADs? US-France-Italy-Germany. Frace withdrew, the Italians were useless, and the US decided at the end Patriot was still useful. The Germans? Pissed.
5. US Missle Defense Shield, Germans see themselves as the battleground of any conflict with the US-Russia. Germans Not Happy.
4. Edward Snowden.


The 2015 German Budget gives increased spending for the Military to buy lethal equipment.

edit, im only looking at modern history.
 
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But this has NOTHING to do with Prussia......
I've already addressed the issues of available strategic depth and the position of NVA within the context of Warsaw Pact.


Gen. Johann-Adolf Count von Kielmansegg, a German panzer division officer during World War II who became commander in chief of NATO forces in Central Europe during the height of the cold war, died on May 26 [2006] in Bonn. He was 99.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/world/europe/04kielmansegg.html?fta=y&_r=0
We must ask our German friend @Götterdämmerung . He can know, whose army was better - FRG or GDR. And in general - who are the best warriors, the East Germans or West.
 
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But this is dateless (to what particular time, moment in history, is his remark referring?) and has NOTHING to do with Prussia...... I've already addressed the issues of available strategic depth and the position of NVA within the context of Warsaw Pact.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/world/europe/04kielmansegg.html?fta=y&_r=0

Die Welt: Die Vorteile lagen also deutlich auf Seiten des Warschauer Paktes?
Kielmansegg: Die Überlegenheit des Warschauer Paktes war in vielen Bereichen doppelt und manchmal sogar um den Faktor vier bis fünf so hoch, etwa was die Anzahl der Panzer und Artillerie betraf. Die enorme Aufrüstung konnte aber nur legitimiert werden, indem das sowjetische Feindbild die Nato viel stärker darstellte, als sie eigentlich war. Dafür wurden beim Feind, also der Nato, ganze Großverbände frei erfunden und den eigenen Plänen zugrunde gelegt. Sie haben sogar die Zahl unserer Waffensysteme willkürlich nach oben gesetzt. Die gegenteiligen Aufklärungsergebnisse der NVA wurden von den vorgesetzten Behörden zugunsten der Doktrin von der Offensive einfach unter den Tisch gekehrt. Das war politisch unverantwortlich und militärisch unprofessionell.

The World: The advantages were so clearly on the side of the Warsaw Pact?
Kielmansegg: The superiority of the Warsaw Pact was duplicated in many areas, and sometimes by a factor of four to five so high about what concerned the number of tanks and artillery. However, the enormous armament could only be legitimized by the Soviet enemy, NATO much more represented than it actually was. For so NATO invented all major units freely and their own plans were the enemy is quoted. You can even set the number of our weapons systems arbitrarily upwards. The opposite reconnaissance of the NVA were swept by the relevant authorities in favor of the doctrine of offensive just under the table. It was politically irresponsible and unprofessional military.
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Die Welt: Eine Offensive des Warschauer Paktes hätte also erfolgreich sein können?
Kielmansegg: Wahrscheinlich. Zumindest mit seinen konventionellen Streitkräften. Auch wenn wir das Gegenteil erhofften. Die Zeit war dabei ein entscheidender Faktor. Um alle verfügbaren Kräfte einsatzbereit zu machen, hätten wir mindestens 30 Tage gebraucht, einschließlich der Verstärkungen, die aus England und Amerika hätten gebracht werden müssen.
Die Welt: So viel Zeit hätte die Nato kaum gehabt...
Kielmansegg: ...genau! Der Warschauer Pakt hätte wesentlich schneller mobil machen können, nach 48 Stunden wäre er wohl mit der Masse seiner überlegenen Kräfte zum Angriff bereit gewesen. Bei einem Angriff nach sehr kurzer Vorbereitungszeit hätte eine Planung wie die von Lautsch, innerhalb von sieben Tagen die deutsch-niederländische Grenze zu erreichen, durchaus realistisch sein können.

The World: An offensive of the Warsaw Pact would thus be successful?

Kielmansegg: Probably. At least with its conventional armed forces. Although we had hoped otherwise. The time was a decisive factor. To see all available forces ready, we would have needed at least 30 days, including reinforcements from England and America would have to be brought.

The World: How much time would that NATO had little ...

Kielmansegg: ... exactly! The Warsaw Pact could have done much faster mobile, after 48 hours, he would have been ready to attack with the bulk of his superior forces. In an attack after a very short preparation time would have a plan of how the Lautsch to reach the German-Dutch border, within seven days, may well be realistic.

I.e. had NOTHING to do with Prussians (or even East Germans ) being superior fighters but with NUMERICAL SUPERIORITY, LACK OF STRATEGIC DEPTH, LENGTH OF SUPPLY LINES..

Prussians, aka East.

As indicated, Prussia stretched all the way west to the Netherlands .... i.e. BALONY (epic failure to see history)

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I.e. had NOTHING to do with Prussians (or even East Germans ) being superior fighters but with NUMERICAL SUPERIORITY.


As indicated, Prussia stretched all the way west to the Netherlands .... i.e. BALONY
One of the cores of Prussia - Brandenburg, was just within the GDR.
Preussen-GrKF[1].jpg

And I want to know not the comparison of the Western bloc - East Block, but the force of armies GDR / FRG. In an interview the general Kielmansegg in one place claimed that the army of the GDR was stronger, but later he spoke of the Army of the GDR only as a part of the Eastern Bloc.
 
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Germanys neighbors are very sensitive about this stuff, it may look exaggerated from outside but they have their reasons believe me.


Oh boy such a statement from a half German half Italian, Adolf and Benito would be proud of you. :confused:


No they would not. Its not about race. Its about culture.

let us say there is a war would you join the army ?


No, because it would be a waste for myself. I study flight engineering. I´m very fit because i do bodybuilding but i have not the best eyes. So wasting me as a soldier wouldn´t be the smartest move when i can do so much more in the engineering field. Of course i would be defending my nation. But i don´t think that i would be a perfect ground soldier. One must be honest. And i dont see any danger for italy right now.

egypt is a different matter. You have a much more difficult environment and situation.
 
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No they would not. Its not about race. Its about culture.

It's about contribution to the host nation. I empathize for the Italians and German government in limiting these illegal aliens, many of whom don't know the language not are even skilled laborers. Their very presence only drains the social welfare resources on these nations, which are funded by tax paying citizens or resident aliens.

I'm all for immigration and admire cultural integration. But I am totally agains illegal immigration.

Deportation is a must.
 
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One of the cores of Prussia - Brandenburg, was just within the GDR. View attachment 160405
And I want to know not the comparison of the Western bloc - East Block, but the force of armies GDR / FRG. In an interview the general Kielmansegg in one place claimed that the army of the GDR was stronger, but later he spoke of the Army of the GDR only as a part of the Eastern Bloc.


You ignore one thing. Brothers don´t turn easily against each other. Its doubtful that german soldiers would shot on german soldiers. That is an psychological issue.
 
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One of the cores of Prussia - Brandenburg, was just within the GDR. View attachment 160405
And I want to know not the comparison of the Western bloc - East Block, but the force of armies GDR / FRG. In an interview the general Kielmansegg in one place claimed that the army of the GDR was stronger, but later he spoke of the Army of the GDR only as a part of the Eastern Bloc.
As already indicated, within the WP, the NVA was often the best equipped of all non-Russian WP forces.


The government of East Germany had control over a large number of military and paramilitary organisations through various ministries. Chief among these was the Ministry of National Defence. Because of East Germany's proximity to the West during the Soviet–American Cold War (1945–91), its military forces were among the most advanced of the Warsaw. Defining what was a military force and what was not is a matter of some dispute.

The Nationale Volksarmee (NVA) was the largest military organisation in East Germany. It was an all volunteer force until an eighteen month conscription period was introduced in 1962. It was considered one of the most professional and best prepared military forces in the world.
East Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The manpower of the NVA consisted of some 85,000 soldiers in 1962, climbed to 127,000 by 1967, and remained essentially steady through 1970. In 1987, at the peak of its power, the NVA numbered 175,300 troops. Approximately 50% of this number were career soldiers, while the others were short-term conscripts. Left behind were after German Unification were:
  • 767 aircraft (helicopters, fixed wing aircraft), 24 of which were MiG-29s
  • 208 ships
  • 2,761 tanks
  • 133,900 wheeled vehicles
  • 2,199 artillery pieces
  • 1,376,650 firearms
  • 303,690 tons of ammunition
  • 14,335 tons of fuel and cleaning materials
National People's Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aside from NVA you had :

Border troops, separated from the NVA in 1973 but remaining under the same ministry: an all-volunteer force that at its peak numbered approximately 47,000 men.
After the NVA was separated from the Volkspolizei in 1956, the Ministry of the Interior maintained its own public order barracked reserve, known as the Volkspolizei-Bereitschaften (VPB). These units were, like the Kasernierte Volkspolizei, equipped as motorised infantry, and they numbered between 12,000 and 15,000 men.
The Ministry of State Security (Stasi) included the Felix Dzerzhinsky Guards Regiment, which was mainly involved with facilities security and plain clothes events security. They were the only part of the feared Stasi that was visible to the public, and very unpopular within the population. The Stasi numbered around 90,000 men, the Guards Regiment around 11,000-12,000 men.
The Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse (combat groups of the working class) numbered around 400,000 for much of their existence, and were organised around factories and neighbourhoods. The KdA was the political-military instrument of the SED; it was essentially a "party Army". All KdA directives and decisions were made by the ZK's Politburo. They received their training from the Volkspolizei and the Ministry of the Interior. Membership was voluntary, but SED members were required to join as part of their membership obligation.
East Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bundeswehr was officially established on the 200th birthday of Scharnhorst on 12 November 1955. After an amendment of the Basic Law in 1955, West Germany became a member of NATO. In 1956, conscription for all men between the ages of 18 and 45 was reintroduced, later augmented by a civil alternative with longer duration. During the Cold War, the Bundeswehr was the backbone of NATO's conventional defence in Central Europe. It had a strength of 495,000 military and 170,000 civilian personnel.Although Germany had smaller armed forces than France and the United States, Cold War Historian John Lewis Gaddis assesses the Bundeswehr as "perhaps world's best army".The Army consisted of three corps with 12 divisions, most of them heavily armed with tanks and APCs.
Bundeswehr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The army saw itself explicitly not as a successor to the defeated Wehrmacht, but as in the traditions of the Prussian military reformers of 1807 to 1814 and the members of the military resistance during National Socialism. On 1 April 1957, the first conscripts arrived for service in the army.In total of twelve armoured and infantry divisions were to be established by 1959, as planned in Army Structure I. To achieve this goal existing units were split approximately every six months. However the creation of all twelve divisions did not take place until 1965. At the end of 1958 the strength of the army was about 100,000 men.
The development of Soviet tactical nuclear weapons required the development of a new Army structure even before Army Structure I was fully achieved. To minimize the effects of attacks with tactical nuclear weapons on massed forces, the 28,000 strong divisions of the Heer were broken up into smaller and more mobile brigades. These smaller units were also to be capable of self-sustainment on an atomic battlefield for several days, and to be capable of to move quickly from defense and to attack. The new armoured and mechanized brigades were capable of combined arms combat. Each division was composed of three brigades. The armoured brigades consisted of an armoured infantry battalion, two armoured battalions, an armoured artillery battalion and a supply battalion. The mechanized brigades consisted of a motorized infantry battalion, two mechanized infantry battalions, an armored battalion, a field artillery battalion and a supply battalion. The motorized brigades consisted of three motorized infantry battalions, an anti-tank battalion, a field artillery battalion and a supply battalion. The alpine brigades consisted of three alpine battalions, a mountain artillery battalion and a supply battalion. By 1959 the Heer consisted of 11 divisions of 27 brigades, four Panzer (armoured), four Panzergrenadier (mechanized), two Jäger (motorized), and one Gebirgsjäger (alpine).
At the end of the Cold War the German Army fielded 12 divisions with 38 brigades: six Panzer (armoured), four Panzergrenadier (mechanized), one Fallschirmjäger (airborne), and one Gebirgsjäger (alpine) division. Nine divisions were grouped into three corps: I German Corps as part of NATO's Northern Army Group, II German Corps and III German Corps as part of Central Army Group.The remaining three divisions were part of Allied Forces Baltic Approaches (6th Panzergrenadier Division) and NORTHAG's I Netherlands Corps (3rd Panzer Division), while 1st Fallschirmjäger Division was assigned in peacetime to II German Corps and doubled as general staff for the ACE Mobile Force (Land).
German Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following gives the number of armoured formations and tank strength as of 1981/1982 for Warsaw Pact and NATO member countries. These include formations and vehicles deployed outside Europe, such as in North America or the Asiatic USSR.

German Army
Formations
  • 6 Tank Divisions (Panzerdivisionen)
  • 4 Armored Infantry Divisions (Panzergrenadierdivisionen)
  • 1 Mountain Division (Gebirgsdivision)
  • 6 Home Defense Tank Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzerbrigaden)
  • 6 Home Defense Armored Infantry Brigades (Heimatschutz – Panzergrenadierbrigaden (not complete)
  • 1 Airborne Division (Luftlandedivision)
  • 1,200 M48 A2C/A2GA2
    2,437 Leopard 1 A2/A3/A4
    150 Leopard 2
    770 Kanonenjagdpanzer
    350 Raketenjagdpanzer - - -
    Total: 3,787 tanks
    (Total: 4,907 including Jagdpanzer)
East Germany
As of 1981/82:
Formations
  • 2 Tank Division
  • 4 Mechanised Infantry Divisions
Number of tanks
  • 1,500 MBT T-54 / T-55 / T-72 (further 1600 tanks stored)
  • 120 Reconnaissance tanks PT-76
Total: 1,620+ tanks
Cold War tank formations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can't uncouple the West Germany military from NATO, or the East German military from WP. If you do, based on orbat, the balance is quite clearly in favor of West Germany

nato-afcent-map2.jpg

Western European forces held most of the responsibility for defending the West German border - six of the eight corps sectors. They also hold most of the forces which were deployed or are planned to be deployed from the beginning of the war in the Central Region. Allied ground forces in the 1980s totaled roughly 600,000 men against 200,000 U.S. troops. Allied air forces had more than 1,000 aircraft compared to approximately 300 U.S. aircraft. Allied countries also maintain substantial additional active forces and reserves. Although many of these forces are not officially committed to the Central Region, they presumably would have been used in a NATO war. France, which withdrew from the military alliance in 1966 but still maintains forces which would presumably be used for the defense of CENTAG, is included in these counts.
Three land corridors cut across the Iron Curtain from Warsaw Pact countries into West Germany, which was AFCENT's forward line of defense. The most dangerous avenue, tailor-made for armored thrusts, traversed the North German Plain over first-rate highways and rolling farmlands that facilitated cross-country movement, whereas rough, wooded terrain farther south generally restricted vehicular traffic to the Fulda Gap, which points toward Frankfurt-am-Main, and to the Hof Corridor which heads for Munich.
nato-afcent-map3.jpg
Northern Army Group (NORTHAG) covered the crucial North German Plain with four corps, of which the Netherlands, West Germany, Britain, and Belgium provided one apiece. Central Army Group (CENTAG), in sharp contrast, was positioned on far more defensible terrain and possessed far greater combat power that included two U.S. corps, two more that belonged to the West German Bundeswehr, and a Canadian mechanized brigade in reserve. Defense of the Fulda Gap might best have rested with a single command, but German and U.S. Army formations shared responsibility for that high-speed approach, which straddled the boundary between them. Such maldeployments were militarily unsound, but no adjustments of much consequence took place before the Cold War ended, because exchanges would have weakened defenses while in progress, diplomatic objections
Cold War NATO Army Groups
See also
Northern Army Group (NORTHAG)
Central Army Group [CENTAG]


The Soviet Union used the Warsaw Pact framework to bring its allies into line with its view of strategy, operations, tactics, organizational structure, service regulations, field manuals, documents, staff procedures, and maintenance and supply activities.
By the 1980s, the Soviet Union had achieved a degree of technical interoperability among the allied armies that some observers would consider to be a significant military advantage over NATO. However, the Soviet allies had weapons and equipment that were both outdated and insufficient in number. As one Western analyst has pointed out, the NSWP armies remained fully one generation behind the Soviet Union in their inventories of modern equipment and weapons systems and well below Soviet norms in force structure quantities.
These deficiencies called into question NSWP capabilities for joining in Soviet offensive operations against NATO and indicated primarily a rear-area role for the NSWP armies in Soviet strategy.

Within the Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union decides which of the allies receive the most up-to-date weapons. Beginning in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Soviet Union provided the strategically located Northern Tier countries, East Germany and Poland especially, with greater quantities of advanced armaments. By contrast, the less important Southern Tier, consisting of Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, received used equipment that was being replaced in Soviet or Northern Tier forces. In the mid- 1970s, overall NSWP force development slowed suddenly as the Soviet Union became more interested in selling arms to earn hard currency and gain greater influence in the Third World, particularly in the oil-rich Arab states of the Middle East. At the same time, growing economic problems in Eastern Europe made many Third World countries look like better customers for Soviet arms sales. Between 1974 and 1978, the Soviet Union sent the equivalent of US$18.5 million of a total US$27 million in arms transfers outside the Warsaw Pact. Moreover, massive Soviet efforts to replace heavy Arab equipment losses in the 1973 war against Israel and the 1982 Syrian-Israeli air war over Lebanon came largely at the expense of modernization for the East European allies. In the late 1980s, the NSWP countries clearly resented the fact that some Soviet Third World allies, including Algeria, Libya, and Syria, had taken delivery of the newest Soviet weapons systems, such as the MiG-25, not yet in their own inventories. The Soviet Union probably looked at a complete modernization program for the NSWP armies as unnecessary and prohibitively costly for either it or its allies to undertake.
MILITARY TECHNOLOGY AND THE WARSAW PACT
 
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The Germans need to reform their constitution as well. I don't see why our German Brothers should remain benign.

They have always been a proud, and powerful military nation. Long have the Prussian Army been an idol of foreign armies.

Germania needs to awaken again.
Careful there...last couple of times that any sort of awakenings happened thereabouts we ended up with millions dead, radioactive mushrooms in Japan, the whole world feeling sorry for the jews, collapse of great empires and whatnot.

italy is the best country in the world. Nowhere its more beautiful
Ahem...have you seen Pakistan ?
 
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