Thunder is Rolling

[MastanKhan]

Salam Muhtaram,

Well that is encouraging and if Italian are really serious in this regard, I hope such competition is win win for both parties. We are going to have the desired gear and they have a platform and Money for the and above all as you said, a contract. However, the usual reservation w.r.t. possible tech evaluation or leak to Chinese, would be the most tricky part and if succeeded, I am seeing the gain of trust as well. Also, Leonardo showcased AESA in ideas 2016 along with IRST that seems like bonus yet Chinese option does not bring the same as built-in but could be optional which is not clear yet.

On the same time our Chinese Friends will also be pushing hard and such competition is beneficial and productive for us as well will be attracting more customers for JFT with all such capabilities.

Your analysis, opinion and views regarding these developments, would be helpful as well.

Hi,

I think that we should go with Leonardo---and force them to step up to the plate---. It would be an overall better tactical decision---even for Leonardo---they might be looking at 250--400 JF17's EW packages coming their way---.

But the bottom line over here is commitment from both the parties---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

I think that we should go with Leonardo---and force them to step up to the plate---. It would be an overall better tactical decision---even for Leonardo---they might be looking at 250--400 JF17's EW packages coming their way---.

But the bottom line over here is commitment from both the parties---.

I also think that Leonardo's system will be much better if a good understanding is reached on continuity of making inside Pakistan under license or ToT to ensure the availability

 

[MastanKhan]

I also think that Leonardo's system will be much better if a good understanding is reached on continuity of making inside Pakistan under license or ToT to ensure the availability

Hi,

From a military stand point---my first priority would be to get the top tier system---once that hurdle is crossed---then local production should be brought forward---.

Meaning something like---after an X number of units being produced in the parent country---the next one's would be assembled in the host country---.

Always remember that the selling nation also has a work force---.

For a top tier option---if there is even 1 % chance of the deal not going thru---I would not even bring the issue of TOT of local production at the time of negotiation---.

what i will do is---after they have supplied 50-80 units and we have a very happy relationship and they are looking at another 250-350 units in the future---that would be the time to bring up the issue

That is car sales 101---. The moment we get a hint that the customer is payment oriented and is on a tight budget---we don't enter the warranty and alarm in the monthly payment to get the commitment---.

We agree with the customer on the basic payment---he is mentally an owner---now when he goes into the finance office to sign the contract---the finance manager would bring out the extended warranty etc to add to the payment---.

At that time---the customer is not going to walk out without buying the car---they will either say nay---or they will say yeah---one way or the other---the car will be sold---.

So---basically---get the deal first---TOT and the rest of the B S can be handled later.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hey I heard by 2030 JF-17 second hand spare parts will be available in Sher Shah along with other spares for Mehran, Khyber, and Cultus!!!!

Naaah not really. Ignore me please

 

[CriticalThought]

@Khafee
Ummeed hai keh in masoom aansuon say aap ki hiss-e-mizzah ki waafir taskeen hui ho gi.

Yeh insaan bara 'ajeeb hai. Husool-e-tafreeh ki khatir masoom janon ko bhi dao peh laga deta hai.

 

[Gryphon]

 

[HRK]

JF-17B - Which block does this belong to? 1, 2 or 3?

if these will be produced this year then Blk-II, but its is a common understanding that Blk-II will also have tandem seat version

BTW this was reported by Geo as well few time back:

The Block III version of the JF-17 Thunder will also feature a two-seater cockpit option.

https://www.geo.tv/latest/3867-paf-to-induct-jf17-thunder-block-iii-in-2016

 

[19CavPK]

Or the rumors of 2nd JF-17 crash where Pilot lost conscious most probably due to G-LOC and plane crashed into sea

This comes as a news to me. Only knew of one crash until this.. I hope these are rumors only.

 

[war&peace]

Hey I heard by 2030 JF-17 second hand spare parts will be available in Sher Shah along with other spares for Mehran, Khyber, and Cultus!!!!

Naaah not really. Ignore me please

@Khafee
Ummeed hai keh in masoom aansuon say aap ki hiss-e-mizzah ki waafir taskeen hui ho gi.

Yeh insaan bara 'ajeeb hai. Husool-e-tafreeh ki khatir masoom janon ko bhi dao peh laga deta hai.

Reported

 

[somebozo]

Panzer Rollen In Afrika
Thunder Rollen In Aaasiaaa!

 

[Trango Towers]

Ofcourse JF-17B. as Block III still is not available. same is mentioned by @Windjammer .
Here


So i was [no. i am] asking that how many JF-17B squadrons are planned ? or is it still not "announced" ?

Whole squadrons of 2 seater? Why?

 

[RealNapster]

Whole squadrons of 2 seater? Why?

it was a question. not a suggestion. which have been answered.

 

[aliyusuf]

Apparently there are two contenders for the AESA radar that is to be installed on the JF-17 Block-III, namely the NRIET KLJ-7A and Leonardo-Finmeccanica Vixen-1000ES AESA radars. The decision on which of these AESA radars is to be selected for the JF-17 Block-3 will, in my humble opinion, be based upon the following considerations ...

1) Performance
2) Integration with the existing Chinese subsystems and weapons/armament
3) Access to future upgrades to the radar and the armament
4) Free from future sanctions and hidden kill/switches and Trojans
5) Which radar is more ready at the moment to be installed (because customization and integration take time) so as not to further delay the launch, development and the induction of the JF-17 Block-III.

The Vixen-1000ES scores much better on the performance benchmark. It offers a better detection range of 150km for a 1 sqm RCS target i.e. 224km for a 5 sqm RCS target. It also offers state of the art WFoV of 200 degrees off bore sight. This feature is quite significant because it allows the parent fighter to turn 90 degrees to the original missile launch flight path and still keep on providing MFU to the launched missile till its own active radar switches on. It is quite similar to the performance of the Raven ES-05 on the Gripen-NG. Furthermore it comes mated with a Skyward IRST which is an advantage.

The KLJ-7A is stated to have a detection range of 170km for a 5(or is it 3?) sqm RCS target and has a conventional AESA FoV without any built-in IRST unit like Vixen-1000ES.

Chinese missiles and munitions have been the mainstay weaponry to the Thunder program so far. This provides us access to very nearly the best the Chinese have to offer and further access to future improvements. Same is the case for the KLJ-7A radar. Any future improvements will be available for us to retrofit. Can we say the same for the Vixen? Will we be having access to the future upgrades of the Vixen? Will the Vixen function the same against adversaries whether they be the Indians or western/NATO? Will we be allowed Meteor? Can we just go along with a western only armament if integration to Chinese weapons and subsystems is an issue (for whatever reasons)?
Will we be getting access to future upgrades to the radar and weapons?

Also how soon can the Vixen be made ready for installation in the context of the above mentioned issues. We cannot have further delays on the Block-III.

These are IMHO realistic considerations. Even if we get a favorable outcome on all of the above for the Vixen-1000ES, we should not pin all our stakes on a western vendor. My personal opinion would be to equip 25 of the Block-III planes with Vixen and equip the other 25 with KLJ-7A. This way if the worst of our fears are realized during a conflict or an all out war, it won't be a total show stopper. The KLJ-7A ones will still be 100% effective.

Just my thoughts.

 

[nang2]

1) Performance
2) Integration with the existing Chinese subsystems and weapons/armament
3) Access to future upgrades to the radar and the armament
4) Free from future sanctions and hidden kill/switches and Trojans
5) Which radar is more ready at the moment to be installed (because customization and integration take time) so as not to further delay the launch, development and the induction of the JF-17 Block-III.

What about the cost?

 

[aliyusuf]

What about the cost?

A valid point. But the same company has done business with the PAF in the past regarding the ROSE-I Mirage radar and the F-7P and F-7PG radars upgrade. So, it may not be too painful for the PAF to arrange an easy payment schedule.