Things Anyone Who’s A Liberal In Pakistan Can Completely Understand

[Rusty]

I have been on this forums since about 2011-2012 and in that time I went from being a classical conservative who believed that the state should be run by Islamic "values" to a liberal who is now convinced that secularism is the only way to go.

Why the change? Simple, there is no successful country that is run by a theology. All theological states fail due to dogma and inability to adapt to the times.

My only interest is to have Pakistan survive into the future as a modern state that is on par with the west. That dream is impossible if we create a theocracy.

Look at Pakistan's own history, Pakistan was booming when it was secular, and it went bust when the Mullahs got power.

 

[razgriz19]

I am one of the Libtard in my family and Friend circle , and everything OP mentioned i've been accused of

The problem is our families don't get the opportunity to mingle with all these people of different ethinicity, background, or gender. Most of these people are super nice and we like them because of that. Our families first see them as drinker, black, and gay.
That's the problem. If they don't follow our religion or culture, they're automatically considered bad and us as well for supporting them [emoji17]

 

[El Sidd]

Well, let me just clarify .
I don't describe myself as liberal or conservative . I think I'm a human , a normal human being who can have different thoughts about each things .
A human is not a liberal about everything in the world all the time and he also can't be a conservative about everything in the world .

The things you expressed that liberals have , oh dear I don't give a damn about this all . I don't get into debates about these petty things . You can do and be whoever you like , I've no say in it .. , i font know how do people find time to debate about these unreal things .,. and I don't think this makes me a liberal or conservative.
It just makes me a human and stop categorising every now and then .

You got my vote

 

[Verve]

Our allegiance is with Islam too, just because we don't follow the same version/interpretation of Islam as you doesn't mean that we have our allegiance somewhere else...

And no sir, you of course are not a hypocrite for choosing to live in the west so that you can lead a respectable life and earn Rizq e Halal for yourself and your children. But What you need to understand is that everyone is not as privileged as you are. Not everyone can afford living in the west. Why can't we replace Pakistani rotten system with some similar system so that everyone here too could live a respectable life and earn Rizq e Halal? At least till the time Mahdi or Jesus appears and the mythical Islamic Utopian Kingdom is finally established. Until then we are on our own.

We are not on our own, Allah is there for us. We just need to move towards and submit to Him.

Sir, changing the system to liberal secular will not cure the rot that's set in the society. It will make it worse. This is our core difference.

We have not seen a genuine Islamic social democratic system. Both Jinnah and Iqbal rejected the isms and western democracy system.

And sir, I'm not privileged. My grandparents on both sides were villagers but my grandfather (a pious man, and a labour sailor for the Brits) was very strict on education so my dad finished his metric in his village, then rest to Masters in UK by 70/71. My mom hated UK so all returned to Pakistan in early 70's. My brothers are KEMC educated and you know how tough it is to get in there - no bribes, nothing of sorts, in FSc!

I would call it Allah's rehmat, not privilege. And that rehmat is due to the massive push to education by my grandfather, as it changed the fate of the next 3 generations! My dad used to walk a few miles on clutches (due to foot injury) to go to university on black snow footpaths every day for many months, as my grandfather refused to let him waste a single day of his studies.

As for me, I've not taken any money from my parents to live off after completing my masters. I've worked my way up to where I am now, from first job of data entry paying 'minimum wage of £5 an hour' (same as what a cleaner at McDonald's earned) to six figures. So no, I'm no privileged. Allah has been kind.

And I've lived the life of a liberal many can't even imagine and I'm not going in details. So I can say I'm qualified to know what it does to one and what it leads to. But Allah has pulled me out of it after teaching me a very harsh lesson, and blessed me with far more than before.

Those who think that liberal secular system will make their lives better are living in delusions. Work your butts off instead (take that lesson from Chinese and West instead of their systems), and be thankful to Allah for everything, no matter how tough the going gets. Even the present constitution is decent enough if we have good honest hard working people implementing it. But it is not Allah's prescribed system, foundation is but the building above ground is not.

People make the system. Rotten people running a dying Western liberal secular system is simply suicidal.

 

[pak-marine]

View attachment 397976

Ahahaha .. yeah bik gai hai gormiittt

 

[YeBeWarned]

The problem is our families don't get the opportunity to mingle with all these people of different ethinicity, background, or gender. Most of these people are super nice and we like them because of that. Our families first see them as drinker, black, and gay.
That's the problem. If they don't follow our religion or culture, they're automatically considered bad and us as well for supporting them [emoji17]

and not forget those Buzurg ... they are biggest culprits in the families , buzurgon ne yeh kaha , buzurgon ne woh kaha , aur khud woh kabhi Karachi se bhar nai gae lakin puri duniya ke maashroon ki khaber hoti hai in ko ..

 

[Finer]

I have been on this forums since about 2011-2012 and in that time I went from being a classical conservative who believed that the state should be run by Islamic "values" to a liberal who is now convinced that secularism is the only way to go.

Why the change? Simple, there is no successful country that is run by a theology. All theological states fail due to dogma and inability to adapt to the times.

My only interest is to have Pakistan survive into the future as a modern state that is on par with the west. That dream is impossible if we create a theocracy.

Look at Pakistan's own history, Pakistan was booming when it was secular, and it went bust when the Mullahs got power.

If you look at the history of Golden Age of Islam, they were liberal too. History doesn't teach you that. Those liberal Muslims even warned about the danger of ignorance through the form of conservative mindsets which will undo all the hard work had been for the community to further their research on science, math and all kind of progression.

Unfortunately, the liberal Muslims could only keep conservative dominated group at bay for so long, and eventually, that was no longer possible with the growing conservative community unfortunately. Same is happening in USA now. We are going to understand why the greatest nation in mankind collapses. Let is that be lesson for the future mankind so we don't repeat the mistake but knowing the mankind, it is bound to repeat the mistake unfortunately.

 

[Verve]

If you look at the history of Golden Age of Islam, they were liberal too. History doesn't teach you that. Those liberal Muslims even warned about the danger of ignorance through the form of conservative mindsets which will undo all the hard work had been for the community to further their research on science, math and all kind of progression.

Unfortunately, the liberal Muslims could only keep conservative dominated group at bay for so long, and eventually, that was no longer possible with the growing conservative community unfortunately. Same is happening in USA now. We are going to understand why the greatest nation in mankind collapses. Let is that be lesson for the future mankind so we don't repeat the mistake but knowing the mankind, it is bound to repeat the mistake unfortunately.

The Kingdoms and the rot from them caused the eventual collapse. Add to that the increase of booming illiterate population and selling the religion to illiterates by the 'alims' = present times

Conservatism has nothing to do with the demise. The rot that carried forward and multiplied through kingdoms of times was the primary cause.

Akbar's council of Ulema gave him the idea of Deen-e-Ilahi. Were those Ulema conservatives or liberals would you say to come up with such?

 

[Finer]

The Kingdoms and the rot from them caused the eventual collapse. Add to that the increase of booming illiterate population and selling the religion to illiterates by the 'alims' = present times

That is because of the conservative mindset that imposes restriction on the creativity, progression, science which all of them requires open mindedness to begin with.

Conservatism has nothing to do with the demise. The rot that carried forward and multiplied through kingdoms of times was the primary cause.

Akbar's council of Ulema gave him the idea of Deen-e-Ilahi. Were those Ulema conservatives or liberals would you say to come up with such?

Conservative has everything to do with the demise.

When Islam released, Islam challenged the conservative-dominated-society and successfully eradicated the side-effect of conservative mindsets such as honor killing, inequality, harsh laws that imposes restriction on freedom of speech and expression which Islam dealt that.

Hence the verse in Holy Quran, "To you is your and To me is mine" insinuating that regardless of our opinions, we cannot be forced into opinions against our wills. Nor we can impose our ideology against others and their wills and vice versa. That includes minority-backed blasphemy laws should not imposed against the wills of majority in Pakistan either.

 

[Vazir]

Okay so the words “conservative” and “liberal” have a proper dictionary definition but in Pakistan, we have our own unique way of defining things. This word is highly misunderstood and Pakistanis, on average, HATE anyone who identifies as a liberal.



Here are all the things anyone who identifies as a liberal has experienced, at least once:

1. You are frequently called a “libtard”

Via Imgur
Liberal + Retard = Libtard. People, this isn’t only a really lame word, but throwing around the word “retard” so casually is actually insensitive, not to speak of how offensive it is.

2. It is assumed that you are anti-religion and have zero tolerance for those who follow religion.

Source: We Think Films / Hot Water Bottle Films
No man, being liberal is about tolerating different viewpoints.

3. You also want to spread fahashi, according to the world

Via Tumblr
How is acceptance of letting everyone live life their own way related to fahashi?

4. You often hear things like, “you are supporting a Western agenda”

Source: deenga.com
Can we not?

5. Or that all this is a “yahoodi sazish” and you are a yahoodi agent

Source: ZaynVEVO / YouTube
6. If you’re a woman, then you’re a whore who is the worst thing that can happen to Pakistan

Via Tumblr
7. You also just want everyone to have sex all the time. Tauba taubaaaa

Source: deenga.com
8. Some people also automatically assume that you speak English very well.

Via: Tumblr
I will never understand that logic. Dude, how can my linguistic skills affect my ideology? Mein har zubaan mein equality soch sakti hun.

9. They think that you are supporting the LGBTQ community because maybe you’re a homosexual yourself.

Source: deenga.com
I support animal rights, am I a panda? I support environmental rights, am I a tree?

10. Not to forget the misconception that you are “burger bacha”
Sure, burgers care about other people, okay.

Source: deenga.com
Whatever the **** that means.

11. The number of idiots who tell you to “go to Amreeka if you want to support Western culture” is pretty high.

Via PandaWhale
12. You suffer the burden of taking this mulk towards its barbaadi

Source: deenga.com
lol okay.

13. Sometimes even your own family doesn’t get you so you find your own liberal, fahaash, yahoodi agent family

https://www.mangobaaz.com/liberal-in-pakistan/
@Zibago @The Sandman @Divergent1 @RealNapster @Mentee @haviZsultan

Amen, bratha

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

The Kingdoms and the rot from them caused the eventual collapse. Add to that the increase of booming illiterate population and selling the religion to illiterates by the 'alims' = present times

Conservatism has nothing to do with the demise. The rot that carried forward and multiplied through kingdoms of times was the primary cause.

Akbar's council of Ulema gave him the idea of Deen-e-Ilahi. Were those Ulema conservatives or liberals would you say to come up with such?

When you say Pakistan should have an Islamic system. How islamic are we talking ? Because besides countries with full on shariah law, Pakistan has introduced the most amount of religious laws (out of perhaps any country in the world). Any further than this and it will make major problems for the country. The reason that countries like Saudi Arab can survive with such laws is basically only because they have money and strong allies. Its not in state interest to make laws which will soothe your feelings but instead what keeps them from collapsing.

 

[Vazir]

When you say Pakistan should have an Islamic system. How islamic are we talking ? Because besides countries with full on shariah law, Pakistan has introduced the most amount of religious laws (out of perhaps any country in the world). Any further than this and it will make major problems for the country. The reason that countries like Saudi Arab can survive with such laws is basically only because they have money and strong allies. Its not in state interest to make laws which will soothe your feelings but instead what keeps them from collapsing.

True enough. If the Saudis didn't have US backing them, the Al Saud dynasty would've been thrown out.

 

[Vapnope]

Just curious, how many of the so called Liberal/progressive/whatever here:

1. Iron their own clothes? &
2. Cook proper meals? If proper meal is too much, how about boiling rice perfectly? No, frying an egg?
3. Clean their house or even room?

This is typical of conservatives, they think liberalism is a product of elite class without realizing that its an ideology not built on class structure.
I am a liberal and i do stuff more than you just quoted, that too on daily basis.

 

[Rusty]

That is because of the conservative mindset that imposes restriction on the creativity, progression, science which all of them requires open mindedness to begin with.



Conservative has everything to do with the demise.

When Islam released, Islam challenged the conservative-dominated-society and successfully eradicated the side-effect of conservative mindsets such as honor killing, inequality, harsh laws that imposes restriction on freedom of speech and expression which Islam dealt that.

Hence the verse in Holy Quran, "To you is your and To me is mine" insinuating that regardless of our opinions, we cannot be forced into opinions against our wills. Nor we can impose our ideology against others and their wills and vice versa. That includes minority-backed blasphemy laws should not imposed against the wills of majority in Pakistan either.

I don't agree with a lot of things you say but I am 100% behind you on this.

In the 21st century and beyond there will only be 2 types of societies
Liberal, open minded, and progressive societies where everyone will be equal regardless of their religion, race, gender, etc.

And conservative broken societies that will be hellish and no one, not even the conservatives will want to live in.

 

[Vazir]

I don't agree with a lot of things you say but I am 100% behind you on this.

In the 21st century and beyond there will only be 2 types of societies
Liberal, open minded, and progressive societies where everyone will be equal regardless of their religion, race, gender, etc.

And conservative broken societies that will be hellish and no one, not even the conservatives will want to live in.

Uh huh. And where do us centrists fall???