The United States Faces Irreparable Damage in a Cold or Hot Conventional War with China and its Alli

[LeGenD]

The credit for any future and likely victory over China cannot exclusively be claimed by India. Either the credit can be taken by the US alone, or jointly by the US and her allies. If Pakistan joins that alliance, she too will be entitled to a piece of the victory pie. On the other hand, if Pakistan remains neutral, or worse aligns with China, Pakistan will pay a hefty price. So its in Pakistan's own interest not to align with a country that is soon going to be whooped big time.

Picking sides in a Cold War whose outcome is uncertain is a dangerous path to walk IMHO. If WE pick a side and the opposing side WIN, then WE will be in big trouble.

China is a neighboring country and Pakistan has benefitted from its help on many counts. China is also giving CPEC to Pakistan. Your suggestion is not practical.

Pakistan should be the VOICE of REASON and INTEGRATION as I have emphasized earlier in this thread.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

I am strongly anti-China while being a Pakistani Muslim myself.

I missed this earlier. May I ask why?

 

[Cherub786]

This hyena mentality has never served anyone who adopted it. Case in point: India - that's what its "non-alignment strategy" is, a petty, transparent attempt to eat at every table. Word to the wise, hyenas are never rewarded - at best they're ignored by the side they cynically aligned with.

I have a deeper question: what makes you think the Quad (if it exists anywhere beyond paper) is the winning side? What if the hyena picks the wrong side, what happens to it then?

If history is any indication, freedom always prevails over authoritarianism. The US waged a Cold War with the Soviets for decades, and finally the USSR collapsed in disgrace in the late 1980s. Why did the USSR collapse? Because they were not a free country. They were a totalitarian, authoritarian regime with no freedom, no democracy, no human rights and no civil rights. China is the same. The US has the moral backing of the vast majority of humanity that is sick and tired of Beijing's shenanigans.
The US is ten times or more stronger than China militarily. The US allies are powerful too, whereas China's allies are limited and weak. China has logistic disadvantages. If it is cut off by a blockade in the South China Sea, it will have no alternative routes. This is why China is extremely nervous about the continuing build up of US military might in the Pacific. The US has been successful in maintaining a powerful alliance in the Pacific, with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Australia.
Now that India has joined this alliance, China has another huge disadvantage in that in any future war it will be facing attacks on two fronts - one from the Pacific and the other from China's long border with India. So, just like Germany in both World Wars, China will face a two pronged attack from two sides and end up folding.
Another weakness of China is the considerable discontent of her people internally. The people of Hong Kong recently engaged in the largest street demonstrations in human history. The Uighurs and Tibetans likewise hate Beijing and given the first opportunity will start an internal insurrection against Beijing which will only help America and her allies to defeat China quicker and decisively.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Picking sides in a Cold War whose outcome is uncertain is a dangerous path to walk IMHO. If WE pick a side and the opposing side WIN, then WE will be in big trouble.

If your opinion of the Quad and its cohesion is correct, then Pakistan's choice is already made. Suppose the US-India relationship really does develop into an alliance and America sells F-35s to India. Is there some law that states those F-35s can only threaten China or would Pakistan also feel concerned by such a development? If this does come to pass, where do you suppose Pakistan would get its own stealth fighters?

 

[Figaro]

If your opinion of the Quad and its cohesion is correct, then Pakistan's choice is already made. Suppose the US-India relationship really does develop into an alliance and America sells F-35s to India. Is there some law that states those F-35s can only threaten China or would Pakistan also feel concerned by such a development? If this does come to pass, where do you suppose Pakistan would get its own stealth fighters?

Pakistan made its decision as soon as it joined CPEC. In the new Cold War, Pakistan will definitely be on the side of China, just like how Australia would be on the side of the US. Countries like India, Russia, or those in the EU on the other hand would stay in the middle. But honestly, I don't think there will be a Cold War 2.0 because of the huge interconnectivity of economies ... countries were willing to go up against the USSR or US back in the first Cold War because they could make their economies dependent on either country. Nowadays, everyone's economies are dependent on both the US and China.

 

[LeGenD]

@Cherub786

Powerful India can damage Pakistan. Do you understand this? Remember Kashmir?

Pakistan and China being close is a mutually beneficial relationship to both.

Please understand that China is a friendly neighboring country. WE already have problems with Iran, Afghanistan, and India.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

This hyena mentality has never served anyone who adopted it. Case in point: India - that's what its "non-alignment strategy" is, a petty, transparent attempt to eat at every table. Word to the wise, hyenas are never rewarded - at best they're ignored by the side they cynically aligned with.

I have a deeper question: what makes you think the Quad (if it exists anywhere beyond paper) is the winning side? What happens to a hyena if it picks the wrong side?

the first ones to get disposed of will be the backstabbers.

 

[LeGenD]

Members are once again reminded to not flamebait each other.

@Cherub786

Please familiarize yourself with forum rules.

 

[Cherub786]

Members are once again reminded to not flamebait each other.

@Cherub786

Please familiarize yourself with forum rules.

Pardon me, I'm not up to date with the latest internet lingo, so I don't know what you mean by "flamebait".
Your earlier point that Pakistan already has problems with its immediate neighbors and so it shouldn't antagonize China either is answered when you consider that by rejoining the US/Western alliance, Pakistan will have an opportunity to reconcile with India. I also believe regime change is soon coming to Iran, and that will likewise profit Pakistan. As for Afghanistan, the Taliban will soon have a huge say in Kabul's foreign policy, and hopefully they won't forget how Pakistan assisted them. Therefore, prospects of reconciliation of Pakistan and her immediate neighbors are looking good.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

If history is any indication, freedom always prevails over authoritarianism.

I'm sorry to put this so bluntly, but this is a childish, fairy-tale understanding of history. Since humans first settled into agrarian civilizations and formed governments, the mode has been "authoritarian" for 99.9% of the time. The only exceptions (very generously defined) were a brief period in one city-state of Greek antiquity and a few centuries of British parliamentary government. That's it. The other tens of thousands of years were all very authoritarian. If freedom is "prevailing", then it's prevailing by a Bollywood definition of the term.

Why did the USSR collapse?

Because it had a crippled economy and a non-existent national identity since its inception.

The US has the moral backing of the vast majority of humanity that is sick and tired of Beijing's shenanigans.

Would that be the same US founded on the genocide of the indigenous peoples and built by African slaves? That's your yardstick for morality?

The US is ten times or more stronger than China militarily.

There's no sense in which that statement is even remotely true. Perhaps you ought to familiarize yourself with recent PLA modernization.

The US allies are powerful too, whereas China's allies are limited and weak.

I hope you know you're throwing quite a bit of shade on your homeland. How "powerful" the US's allies isn't the issue here - how willing they are to sacrifice their ties to China, and their prosperity along with it, and to be the ground on which a US-China war is fought is.

one from the Pacific and the other from China's long border with India.

That border with India happens to be along the highest mountain range on Earth. India isn't really a land neighbour of China - it just looks that way because most maps aren't in 3D.

Another weakness of China is the considerable discontent of her people internally.

Even if we assume all Uighurs, Hong Kongers, and Tibetans oppose PRC rule (which is far from the truth), they are a trivial proportion of China's population. Take a look at this year's Edelman trust barometer and see which country is most satisfied with its government. The result might shock you.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Pakistan will have an opportunity to reconcile with India.

The only "reconciliation" India will accept is absorbing Pakistan into Akhand Bharat, with Muslims existing forever as untermensch in Hindu-supremacist greater India.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The only exceptions (very generously defined) were a brief period in one city-state of Greek antiquity and a few centuries of British parliamentary government.

Britain was still an imperial monarchy with substantial monarchial powers up until the 1910's. It was brutally authoritarian throughout the Victorian era when the British Empire reached its height.

 

[OIO]

If history is any indication, freedom always prevails over authoritarianism. The US waged a Cold War with the Soviets for decades, and finally the USSR collapsed in disgrace in the late 1980s. Why did the USSR collapse? Because they were not a free country. They were a totalitarian, authoritarian regime with no freedom, no democracy, no human rights and no civil rights. China is the same. The US has the moral backing of the vast majority of humanity that is sick and tired of Beijing's shenanigans.
The US is ten times or more stronger than China militarily. The US allies are powerful too, whereas China's allies are limited and weak. China has logistic disadvantages. If it is cut off by a blockade in the South China Sea, it will have no alternative routes. This is why China is extremely nervous about the continuing build up of US military might in the Pacific. The US has been successful in maintaining a powerful alliance in the Pacific, with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Australia.
Now that India has joined this alliance, China has another huge disadvantage in that in any future war it will be facing attacks on two fronts - one from the Pacific and the other from China's long border with India. So, just like Germany in both World Wars, China will face a two pronged attack from two sides and end up folding.
Another weakness of China is the considerable discontent of her people internally. The people of Hong Kong recently engaged in the largest street demonstrations in human history. The Uighurs and Tibetans likewise hate Beijing and given the first opportunity will start an internal insurrection against Beijing which will only help America and her allies to defeat China quicker and decisively.

You are living in the past, you are ignoring there are more people in the street demonstrating in the US!

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Britain was still an imperial monarchy with substantial monarchial powers up until the 1910's. It was brutally authoritarian throughout the Victorian era when the British Empire reached its height.

I know, I was trying to be as generous as possible by equating "democracy" with a parliament. Even with my ridiculous generosity, the period of "democratic" history is fleeting.

 

[LeGenD]

Pardon me, I'm not up to date with the latest internet lingo, so I don't know what you mean by "flamebait".
Your earlier point that Pakistan already has problems with its immediate neighbors and so it shouldn't antagonize China either is answered when you consider that by rejoining the US/Western alliance, Pakistan will have an opportunity to reconcile with India. I also believe regime change is soon coming to Iran, and that will likewise profit Pakistan. As for Afghanistan, the Taliban will soon have a huge say in Kabul's foreign policy, and hopefully they won't forget how Pakistan assisted them. Therefore, prospects of reconciliation of Pakistan and her immediate neighbors are looking good.

Here: https://defence.pk/pdf/rules/