The Ultimate CSD Killer

[mdcp]

India is spending 10 time more than us but earning many hundred times more than us so which on is winning

 

[MilSpec]

I have read the CDS in quite some detail, thus for the enrichment of this debate, i will speak from an impartial point of view.

All my post is based on the conjecture available in the free domain, essentially I don't have a clear picture of what exactly IA actions will be and rightly so. The term CSD well could be just white noise

All good and noble objectives, but they are still punitive strikes and nothing more. PA will still retain the capability to regroup and continue to post a major threat to IA. Unless IBG's lead deep incursions, capture strategic territory and force the PA to slug it out, the objectives in my opinion simply fall short. Anything short of destruction of a huge chunk of PA's War-fighting Capabilities is equivalent to a loss in my opinion.

My opinion is that most controversial aspect of IBG's ground offensive is the final stage of CSD, and most heatedly discussed portion on this forum. The ground offensive can only begin IAF has successfully destroyed the c4i and established air supremacy. keep in mind, IBG progression calls for ground strikes and CAS, few chunk of armors or MBRLs are not the head ache, the net centric ability of PA and PAF, the f16's and other air assets are more important. In other words capture of lahore is pointless, negating sargodha is imperative for IA.
The most important part of CSD in my opinion is not the IBG's and how they perform, but the prelude to the ground operations, The air operations, their surprise, their damage, itself will decide the conflict.

I was under the assumption that the CDS was more based on Desert Storm. Highly mobile units operating in complete network centric environment lead by independent brigades under the command of very capable officers operating under the umbrella of complete air dominance wrecking havoc on the enemy.

In a way yes, but my estimation is that the quality of opposition and technology faced by IA will be much superior and will leave very less wiggle room of India. The smaller and more agile IBG's which will lead the ground operations will be backed up by intermediate reinforcements, and then bigger IBG's will follow with substantial CAS capabilities. All of this is my conjecture btw
The entire idea of what i perceive as the fast moving IBG incursion will be based on net centric warfare with dynamic abilities to regroup and split the Ibg's according to threat available on the ground. Smaller ibgs will need smaller support/refueling/replacement systems, which will be lesser vulnerable to damage. It will pose a logistical nightmare, but the netcentric command centers will be able to handle the requirement.

The problem with light brigades splitting from heavy brigades in our part of the world is a bit different compared to the fluid environment offered in African Deserts. Our part of the world is highly dense and very static especially in Kashmir and Punjab. The only place where fluid battles can be fought is in Thar, but the problem is Thar is not huge and PA's Frontier Units are well dug in. So i am not sure if the concept of splitting light brigades from heavy can be applied to our part of the world.

For most of the kashmir sector I believe it's going to be a air and infantry combat, with very limited armor role in the permissible areas. For most punjab I believe the, larger formations will eventually come into play. When the ground operations start in the plains , it will indeed come up against stiff resistance, and IA will have it's losses, it was never going to be a cake walk in deserts and plain land to begin with. The idea is to open up multiple fronts and engage the enemy, so a few can sneak past in and out flank them.

For arguments sake, lets say that IBG's have penetrated 80km into main land Pakistan. Now What?

Are they just going to sit there and do nothing? IA's supply lines will be under constant bombardment as PA's artillery or even MBRLS will be active, IA will need to further penetrate to cancel these hindrances out. As the IA sits down and starts setting up camp, PA will most definitely regroup and would be looking to launch a counter attack against Indian IBG's which will be exhausted and most definitely short of supplies because tanks are big and they need a lot of fuel to go forward. IBG's will need to continue fighting flanking and encirclement battles in order to stay alive. Thus, this idea of penetration of 80 km does not sound feasible to me, its either go big or go home. Either go all the way or don't go at all, these half attempts won't make much difference.

I do not subscribe to the limited engagement theory, I do believe that idea is to endure highest possible damage to pakistani war machinery in shortest possible time and not capture territories at all. The ground operations will be aimed at squeeze the PA ground assets and keep air interdiction hot. If Pakistani military has a streak of self preservation, it will negotiate, if not it will respond with nuke's. If it does, then the results are unpredictable.

Let me put it to you this way, PA will fire a tactical nuke on an invading Indian Force inside Pakistani territory. If the IA decides to fire a tactical nuke inside Pakistani territory, PA would be well within their rights to escalate it by firing a small ranged (300km) battlefield ballistic missile on IA's Brigade Command and Control. There is no stopping to where this escalation might lead, i pray to God we don't have to find it out.

I cant comment on that,

True, a naval embargo might be feasible but Pakistan can up the ante with PAF launching Harpoon II's at IN's vessels. What will IN do if merchant vessels belonging to China or the US are heading towards Karachi, will the IN board these vessels, tow them to Indian Harbour and try the crew in Prize Courts or not?

Naval escalation is a game I dont think pakistn can win, I am pretty sure you are aware of the tools at disposal, harpoons and chinese missiles at IN will call for bigger damage to PN, which i dont think can sustain a duel with IN.

The problem with conflict is, there is never really any lever that can contain the conflict to your choosing. The other side always has the option to up the ante and your calculations go out of the window. The Germans and the French certainly thought that they would be home by Christmas during World War 1, we all know the rest. If India wants to effectively punish Pakistan, she will have to go all the way and stop thinking from the prism of punitive strikes.

This is where I do hope pakistan sticks to it's age old tradition of it's faulty threat assessment vis-a-vis India, That in my opinion will be the biggest weapon in our arsenal.

 

[Alpha1]

@Armstrong, Sir, humara hathyar sub key samney hey, aub agar kisi ko himat hey tu capability dekh ley.

excelent post! Hidden meaning!

 

[trident2010]

Actually its wishful thinking of Indian armchair Generals that Pakistan cant defend itself in a conventional war for a significant period of time and therefore would resort to nuclear weapons as soon as the first IA soldier crosses the border , such isn't the case ... We have more than enough to defend the motherland in case of any aggression with conventional weapons ... Nuclear ones are reserved for special cases ...

Not necessarily , no ... Strategic nuclear weapons are used as measure of last resort , Tactical nuclear weapons serve as a warning to the invaders that a threshold has been crossed/is being crossed or has a high probability of being crossed ... It isn't the end game or mutually assured destruction , that will depend upon the adversary's next course of action , whether it wants to continue the duel to the point of no return or retreats and saves the lives of billions of people ... It doesn't mean that all conventional resistance is lost because these thresholds are multi faceted and not as simple as you think ... We just have too much at stake because of our geographic disadvantage hence the lower thresholds ...

Yeah a job well done like always ! But you still haven't explained why the Indians haven't dared cross the border since we started developing nuclear weapons ? I mean you have mobilized and backed off in '87 and '02 ... Face the PAF at the skies first to get those objectives met ... Do you think we will be waiting for your unilateral ceasefire or somehow be ready to be invaded and welcome the aggressors at the border ?

Reserve some for RSS terrorists too , dont associate a particular religion with terrorism next time , because there are a plenty in your country too ... and its Nasr ...



No one survives a full scale nuclear war ... So , thinking of living to see the other day after such a conflict is yet another wishful thinking by you ...

Pakistani fanboys are adamant that once the Pakistani armed forces on the backfoot then they use NASR but they conveniently forget the fact that India already have Prahaar in its armory and if there in one attack on Indian soldiers with NASR means four similar attacks on pak forces and given the size of your forces, your game over is ensured. So if there is no strategic nukes involved but still PA/PAF and of course PN will be in ruin. Whatever you do, at last you lose, as you always have.

 

[Icewolf]

@KRAIT

In a way, India was trolled...

Pakistan just puts a nuke warehead on a missile to couter it, while India wastes billions on military..

 

[illusion8]

India tests A 5 an ICBM and soon A 6 Pakistan responds with Ghauri which supposedly failed during tests.

India tests a potent SLBM - infact reveals the 12th test to the media and Pakistan test fires a 60 km missile.


Does that mean Pakistan has achieved parity?

How is that trolling India? if it is then then you can go right ahead and troll some more by test firing Shaheen 1 & 2 when India tests the A 6 and K 4.

 

[Secur]

Whatever you do, at last you lose, as you always have.

Yes, the best case scenario for your country and worst case for the adversary again, nothing more do I see in your post ... Yes we always lost but yet administer 84,000 km2 of Kashmir and around 980 km2 of Rann of Kutch , have deterred the enemy 3 times without firing a single shot , so much for your " game's over " and " always losing at last "

unfortunately my friend...the "tattas" to use those missiles or nukes cannot be manufactured in China

Considering how you haven't dared to cross the border after mobilization in both '87 and '02 and backed off after warnings by Pakistani Generals suffering causalities during the whole episode , I think you desperately need to import some from Russia

 

[Gentelman]

don't know why we are investing on multiple conventional missiles platform...
we should invest in missile defence shield and space program and drones...
if tactical nukes are essential then one project should be progressed..
i.e babur....

 

[trident2010]

Yes we always lost but yet administer 84,000 km2 of Kashmir and around 980 km2 of Rann of Kutch

And we created a new country called "Bangladesh" on the world map from cutting two pieces from your country, and have 100% of Siachen, largest part of Kashmir around 101,300 km2 and 90% of Rann of Kutch is under Indian control. So, Whatever you do, at last you lose, as you always have.

 

[anilindia]

so sunar ki ek lohar ki...

"Agni-V is major strategic defence weapon. Now we want to make Agni-VI which would be a force multiplier," DRDO chief V K Saraswat said.

One missile for one country......

 

[Thorough Pro]

Pakistan fired its first unmanned space mission on June 7, 1962, I guess you were not even in liquid form then.

India tested first Satellite Launch vehicle in 1979.. i hope you were born then !!

Missile tests are not long distance marathons. Every missile has a unique specific role according to defensive/offensive doctrine.

India tests A 5 an ICBM and soon A 6 Pakistan responds with Ghauri which supposedly failed during tests.

India tests a potent SLBM - infact reveals the 12th test to the media and Pakistan test fires a 60 km missile.


Does that mean Pakistan has achieved parity?

How is that trolling India? if it is then then you can go right ahead and troll some more by test firing Shaheen 1 & 2 when India tests the A 6 and K 4.

 

[Secur]

And we created a new country called "Bangladesh" on the world map from cutting two pieces from your country

Did East Pakistan become a province of India somehow ? So what exactly are you so happy at ? Muslims lost land to other Muslims , not you ... Mentioning Siachen , how large is that area and exactly of what strategic influence ? Keep sitting at the cold-hell heights with skyrocketing logistics cost , we honestly do not mind ... We are happy on lower areas with the 1/3rd of what we have in Siachen including the Gyong La pass ... You spend almost 3.5x of what Pakistan does there and it wasn't captured from Pakistan just to set the records straight but just used to be a no man's land ... Just like Pakistan commands Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan ? Or how the Pakistanis forced you to surrender 10% of Rann of Kutch by occupying it first and then authenticating it Internationally ? Or how Pakistan still occupies 6 peaks in Kargil despite the Indian Foreign Minister assurances that " every inch of our land is under our control " ?

 

[trident2010]

seems like this debate has no end and further it rises to trolling.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Norboo]

Ultimate CSD killer??? Typical Windjammer crap!!