The two faces of ‘Muslim’ Modernists

[Hell hound]

False logic. Unlike Roman Catholism and other religions, for the last 100 years the Muslim clergy generally speaking don't have any real power or influence. If they did, they would be ruling Pakistan. Their role is blown way out of proportion.

try changing blasphemy law or do you forget qadri's funeral or lal masjid saga or should i remind you hafeez center qadiyani boycott bro these are just few cases don't try to swipe the mullah problem under the rug they are here and they do control the masses.

 

[jamahir]

In places like china and now france muslims r being forced to compromise , so migration from these places most likely are a must.

ha ha.

so funny that when the saudi member, @al-Hasani ( though not a friend of mine ), has made a few posts about how the burqa is not part of pre-saud muslim culture and when recently a egyptian politician has derided the burqa as being of a certain jewish sect, and both the saudi pdf member and the egyptian politician being of arab lands, here is the south asian member, luffy 500, trying to be more arab than the arabs.

luffy is not a comfortable muslimc( one who is in peace with islam ).

If u contact a islamic scholar he can give u a better answer.

ghanta scholar !!

they are deviants and active or potential cia agents like you.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

try changing blasphemy law or do you forget qadri's funeral or lal masjid saga or should i remind you hafeez center qadiyani boycott bro these are just few cases don't try to swipe the mullah problem under the rug they are here and they do control the masses.

They don't control the masses but the mases are sympathetic towards them for good reason. Love them or hate them, one thing is for certain is that whenever a calamity befalls Pakistan or the most poor and desperate need help with anything, the so called "Mullahs" or religious parties are the first on the scene to help them for free. They are sincere and caring of the poor and vulnerable. Wheras the so called liberal elite of Pakistan are too busy trying to find ways in how to become white western people and how to praise them. They also have a disturbing and deep hatred of the poor and vulnerable in Pakistan.

 

[Hell hound]

They don't control the masses but the mases are sympathetic towards them for good reason. Love them or hate them, one thing is for certain is that whenever a calamity befalls Pakistan or the most poor and desperate need help with anything, the so called "Mullahs" or religious parties are the first on the scene to help them for free. They are sincere and caring of the poor and vulnerable. Wheras the so called liberal elite of Pakistan are too busy trying to find ways in how to become white western people and how to praise them. They also have a disturbing and deep hatred of the poor and vulnerable in Pakistan.

i think it was army who was there.these mullahs just show their face in those event with small donations(huge portion which is already eaten by them during collection phase) while army do the heavy lifting.
and pls give me reason why would any Pakistan loving Pakistani will stand with deash but here we have mullah burka and his whores openly pledging allegiance to isis and indoctrinating the youth against pakistan. but hey we should be thankful to him because he fed and sheltered few boy and girl and ignore the radicalizing process by him bro say what you want but truth is that mullahs heart still ache for ttp and doing good deed doesn't cover for your bad deeds.

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

This is just sad, just mention Secularism and Islam in the same sentence and you all start judging each other like a bunch of rabid animals. Then you will turn around in another thread and say only God can make such judgments.

There's a word for that but I forgot it.


You now have my permission to make your excuses and 'buts'.

 

[Psychic]

after 60 years with Islamists like Ayub Khan who adopted an Islamic resolution turning Pakistan into an Islamic republic

Renaming the country after under immense public pressure makes one an islamist...

The argument that Pakistan is not an Islamic state is either a canard, a direct lie or a convenient excuse told to ensure a system in favor of the average arrogant mullah-where they have power over the masses.

An Islamic state does not mean a state having a bunch of Islamic laws to deal with moral vices whilst totally relying on the Western political-economic system.

Ayub Khan who adopted an Islamic resolution turning Pakistan into an Islamic republic and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Zia made it a hell for minorities other than dictating who should drink alocohol and destroyed the cinema/tv industry of Pakistan with mullahistic movies and breaking tvs

Our TV drama was at it's peak during Zia's time. Wake up bro!

They have failed according to mullahs on this forum for 60 years, how they plan to make Pakistan Islamic now?

According to the secularists of this forum, they have failed to make Pakistan a secular state for 60 years, how they plan to make Pakistan secular now?

When nations pay attention instead of state building on how long the paichan of my shalwar is or how long your beard is it is bound to be disaster.

The truth is there is no real consensus on things like whether beards are compulsory for men or hijab compulsory for women and they want to implement Islamic law. I am telling you in 60 years the mullahs weren't happy, in the next 60 years they won't be either with the current system, no matter how sugar coated it is to appear Islamic there is no pleasing the mullah until humanity goes back to living in caves

We are not talking about beards or niqab or the length of our painchas. We are talking about an Islamic Political-Economic and social system.
Islam is not only about laws for moral vices.

The rest of your post is about what only the extremists do. Nothing to do with an Islamic state. Many people in jeans and T-shirts go to the mosque and pray without any mullah telling them what to do...Don't paint everyone with the same brush.
You people will even curse the mullah who speaks about inter-sect harmony because for you, him being a mullah is a crime serious enough for him to be cursed and blamed for every ill of the society despite the fact that the society is run by those who have no stake in religion.

I think a bigger threat to us is that Islamic countries produce less than their population of total gdp in the world while jews produce twice or thrice as much.

Who's stopping these practically secular "Islamic" countries to compete with the Jews? Blame religion for that as well...how convenient.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Renaming the country after under immense public pressure makes one an islamist...

View attachment 304115​

An Islamic state does not mean a state having a bunch of Islamic laws to deal with moral vices whilst totally relying on the Western political-economic system.

Our TV drama was at it's peak during Zia's time. Wake up bro!

According to the secularists of this forum, they have failed to make Pakistan a secular state for 60 years, how they plan to make Pakistan secular now?

We are not talking about beards or niqab or the length of our painchas. We are talking about an Islamic Political-Economic and social system.
Islam is not only about laws for moral vices.

The rest of your post is about what only the extremists do. Nothing to do with an Islamic state. Many people in jeans and T-shirts go to the mosque and pray without any mullah telling them what to do...Don't paint everyone with the same brush.
You people will even curse the mullah who speaks about inter-sect harmony because for you, him being a mullah is a crime serious enough for him to be cursed and blamed for every ill of the society despite the fact that the society is run by those who have no stake in religion.


Who's stopping these practically secular "Islamic" countries to compete with the Jews? Blame religion for that as well...how convenient.

He Should Read Shahab Nama

 

[babul]

my simple understanding is , there some so call Muslims those who very much shy of there identity as a Muslim . so they
identify themselves as a liberal Muslim its mean there name and identity remain Muslim but there thought and thinking become like those Christian who believed there is god someway in haven but he must not come and interfere my daily life .

 

[haviZsultan]

Renaming the country after under immense public pressure makes one an islamist...

View attachment 304115​

An Islamic state does not mean a state having a bunch of Islamic laws to deal with moral vices whilst totally relying on the Western political-economic system

The question is what will satisfy you? What do you want? How much more religion should be pulled into the constitution, into the state legislation to make you feel satisfied. The answer is this satisfaction may never arrive.

I am also in favor of a more unique system for Pakistan but the role of religion is already inflated in Pakistan. What more do you need other than an entire ministry of religious affairs. The only next step is to become like Afghanistan during the Taliban era. Do you want that?

Our TV drama was at it's peak during Zia's time. Wake up bro!

According to the secularists of this forum, they have failed to make Pakistan a secular state for 60 years, how they plan to make Pakistan secular now?

Wrong, the drama industry began its first decline during Zia's time.

We are not talking about beards or niqab or the length of our painchas. We are talking about an Islamic Political-Economic and social system.
Islam is not only about laws for moral vices.

Yet we haven't answered or received consensus from all muslims on the necessity or not of niqab or the length of the painchas. We can't agree on such a small thing then how can we adopt Islamic legislation for more important things?

Islam is not about laws for moral vices, true. It is about using our own imagination and our own thinking to develop better solutions for state craft and governance. If Allah is trying to tell us something with the fact that majority of muslim countries are in abject poverty and produce not even barely their share of supposed gdp per capita by population then it is this. To think for ourselves and find a sound solution to the great magnitude of our problems. That should open us up at least to talk about secularism.

Mullahs ruling societies hasn't worked. It did not work in Afghanistan neither has it worked elsewhere.

The rest of your post is about what only the extremists do. Nothing to do with an Islamic state. Many people in jeans and T-shirts go to the mosque and pray without any mullah telling them what to do...Don't paint everyone with the same brush.
You people will even curse the mullah who speaks about inter-sect harmony because for you, him being a mullah is a crime serious enough for him to be cursed and blamed for every ill of the society despite the fact that the society is run by those who have no stake in religion.

This has nothing to do with who prays or not. A secular system is not like that in France where niqab is banned or Netherlands where minarets are banned. A secular system allows freedom for all including those in jeans and t shirts or shalwar kameez who wish to pray. It also does not take the right of christians to celebrate christmas like the right is taken in Brunei and Somalia.

Who's stopping these practically secular "Islamic" countries to compete with the Jews? Blame religion for that as well...how convenient.

I don't blame religion for it. But I do blame the lack of progressiveness and lack of imagination of the current generation of muslims. Blaming muslims and blaming Islam itself are 2 different things. I blame muslims who are disingenuous and cannot think of better solutions other than applying their version of religion (each person interprets religion differently) onto everything. Allah wants us to think for ourselves I believe. Not impose half cooked laws like blasphemy and other laws that are meant to suppress others.[/QUOTE]

 

[I.R.A]

Ramon Davis aur Sharukh Jatoi kaisey bachey?

In both those cases who failed whom? Who twisted the law? Be realistic and tell me who failed? Mullahs? Muslims of Pakistan? State of Pakistan? Or the families that suffered? Do you really think such cases have seen closure and there won't be any more justice? The rulers and people involved won't be asked why they failed in doing justice? There will be that day and on that day the ranks, the VIP statuses and wealth one had won't matter. No amount of blackmailing the families would work everyone would have to answer.

I objected because you had called something draconian that is clearly explained in Quran, you should clearly blame the state of Pakistan that fails every time in providing security and justice to its citizens.

The argument that Pakistan is not an Islamic state is either a canard, a direct lie or a convenient excuse told to ensure a system in favor of the average arrogant mullah-where they have power over the masses. Even going by the Islamists theories if they say Pakistan is not Islamic with its blundering forward with blasphemy law and hudood ordinance and a field of religious affairs then the question arises that after 60 years with Islamists like Ayub Khan who adopted an Islamic resolution turning Pakistan into an Islamic republic and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Zia made it a hell for minorities other than dictating who should drink alocohol and destroyed the cinema/tv industry of Pakistan with mullahistic movies and breaking tvs then the question is if none of these could Islamicize Pakistan to the point where these mullahs want then how can we expect after 60 years they will be able to adopt Islam. They have failed according to mullahs on this forum for 60 years, how they plan to make Pakistan Islamic now?

When nations pay attention instead of state building on how long the paichan of my shalwar is or how long your beard is it is bound to be disaster. Let me qoute there is nothing wrong in the search of a secular system or a system that governs our country better or decides its leaders on merit rather than theological prowess. The prophet was asked whether crops were to be planted in a certain way he forbade it. Then when he heard the crops planted in the Prophets way had led to poor harvest. The prophet admitted his advice did not benefit the farmers. The point is think for yourself too. I think a bigger threat to us is that Islamic countries produce less than their population of total gdp in the world while jews produce twice or thrice as much.

Allah created us so that we could use our brain, our own logic to decide the system of our governance or in the Prophets case, their own way of pollinating crops. Everything is not about pulling in religion. We have to keep thinking of a strategy to pull us out of the rampant corruption (moral and actual), poor management of the state, and internal divisions.

The truth is there is no real consensus on things like whether beards are compulsory for men or hijab compulsory for women and they want to implement Islamic law. I am telling you in 60 years the mullahs weren't happy, in the next 60 years they won't be either with the current system, no matter how sugar coated it is to appear Islamic there is no pleasing the mullah until humanity goes back to living in caves

@Zibago @Psychic @hinduguy @jamahir @SecularNationalist @User @Luffy 500

Pakistan is not an Islamic state neither it is an Islamic society. This won't change no matter how much secularism, liberalism, conservatism, modernization we bring to this country.

No state or society can be Islamic unless it strictly understands Quran and implements the system Quran advises.

 

[Zibago]

In both those cases who failed whom? Who twisted the law? Be realistic and tell me who failed? Mullahs? Muslims of Pakistan? State of Pakistan? Or the families that suffered? Do you really think such cases have seen closure and there won't be any more justice? The rulers and people involved won't be asked why they failed in doing justice? There will be that day and on that day the ranks, the VIP statuses and wealth one had won't matter. No amount of blackmailing the families would work everyone would have to answer.

I objected because you had called something draconian that is clearly explained in Quran, you should clearly blame the state of Pakistan that fails every time in providing security and justice to its citizens.




Pakistan is not an Islamic state neither it is an Islamic society. This won't change no matter how much secularism, liberalism, conservatism, modernization we bring to this country.

No state or society can be Islamic unless it strictly understands Quran and implements the system Quran advises.

This is loop hole and the families pardoned them by taking crores in blood money my opinion is that families should have no say on murder cases no pardoning for killers

If loopholes are closed more killers will face justice

 

[I.R.A]

This is loop hole and the families pardoned them by taking crores in blood money my opinion is that families should have no say on murder cases no pardoning for killers

If loopholes are closed more killers will face justice

The families were pressured into taking blood money and pardoning the culprits. State was fully supporting the case of killers, what do you expect a father who has young girl(s) in this pathetic society would do? The victory gestures made by that idiot boy were a slap on the face of this so called Islamic society, country, its rulers and people.

 

[Zibago]

The families were pressured into taking blood money and pardoning the culprits. State was fully supporting the case of killers, what do you expect a father who has young girl(s) in this pathetic society would do? The victory gestures made by that idiot boy were a slap on the face of this so called Islamic society, country, its rulers and people.

What if there was no loophole the murderers wouldve definately gone to jail

I stand by my view that law s for rich and powerful its anti poor and is a get out of jail card for people who do honour killing

 

[I.R.A]

What if there was no loophole the murderers wouldve definately gone to jail

Why send killers straight to jail? ................ once the crime is proven hang them if they are not pardoned by the grieving family, or if the family pardons the murderer still send him / her to jail for rest of his life.

I stand by my view that law s for rich and powerful its anti poor and is a get out of jail card for people who do honour killing

That is a State failure ................. so why call something that is explained in Quran draconian and not call spade a spade that state of Pakistan has always failed its poor citizens.

And I stand by my view Pakistan is not an Islamic country and majority of its society is nowhere near what Islam really means ................................. be them secular, conservative, modernists, liberals poor or rich whoever. Incompetence and hypocrisy of the state and society cannot be blamed on Islam.

 

[Zibago]

Why send killers straight to jail? ................ once the crime is proven hang them if they are not pardoned by the grieving family, or if the family pardons the murderer still send him / her to jail for rest of his life.



That is a State failure ................. so why call something that is explained in Quran draconian and not call spade a spade that state of Pakistan has always failed its poor citizens.

And I stand by my view Pakistan is not an Islamic country and majority of its society is nowhere near what Islam really means ................................. be them secular, conservative, modernists, liberals poor or rich whoever. Incompetence and hypocrisy of the state and society cannot be blamed on Islam.

The option of pardoning a murderer is gvery abuse prone it should be removed