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The Road to Kabul Runs Through Kashmir

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And Pakistan wants to keep others at bay just for the hell of it? What is our problem with Russia or Iran? We have no problem. Our sole concern is that the Pak-Afghan border remains intact and if there is a vacuum in Afghanistan, it is not used to stir up Pashtun nationalism and undermine Pakistan's territorial integrity. This is the basic issue. Not something that you are conjuring up here with regards to Pakistan wanting to keep every one at bay and stick its thumb at them after doing so.

Totally agree with you. But there is no denying that Pakistan has the tendency to take Afghanistan as its backyard and out of bounds for other nations.



Before "Pakistanizing" everything there is a need to understand the madrassa concept. Religious indoctrination happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Madrassa network exists in both countries and anyone attending it would learn that if your land is under occupation, then picking up arms is justified. This same indoctrination was a non-issue when the Soviets were in Afghanistan, but now its an issue for very many reasons.

Am sure you shall appreciate we have madrassas here too and yours truly has a working knowledge of the same. May not be in your class, I agree, but I get by. However, at the same time, ISI and CIA extensively undertook a task to modify the teachings imparted in these institutions to channel the lessons towards fighting an infidel in the form of Soviets in Afghanistan. Whereas, till the advent of ISI and CIA on scene, Soviet occupation in Afghanistan was looked upon by Pashtun people as merely another foreign invader trying to usurp their traditional way of life, with these modificattions (led by Pakistan which best understood the religious sentiments here and hence my terming 'Pakistanization') a new dimension was added - that of religious considerations as opposed to tribal way of life.

Before you infer that this is some insidious Pakistani madrassa plot, let me just put this forth. If a Muslim country is invaded, the madrassa teachers would be duty bound to tell their students that its their right and duty to pick up arms and wage a fight against the occupier. They Afghans who are fighting on the part of Taliban get this same message in Madrassas in Afghanistan and in Pakistan if they come to attend it. They usually go to Pashtun-run madrassas, and this is what they are taught. Not because some ISI minder sits there and instigates them, but due to the Islamic obligation to fight against occupation.

I agree. Its an offshoot of 80s policy - that was my clear cut implication.

Its all about interests. India's security interests are woven into the economic assistance to Afghanistan. You can deny it all you want, however if things go the way GoI wants them to, the security considerations will play a very large part in this assistance.

I have agreed we have secuirty interests there .... am not denying it. Have conceeded the same earlier too.

Economic assistance and trade with Afghanistan is nothing new for Pakistan. The cement used in building roads and buildings all over Afghanistan has been sold by cement factories in Pakistan. The Afghan markets are filled with smuggled and imported goods from Pakistan and now others including India. So lets not portray Pakistan as being against economic development in Afghanistan.

All negated by the policy adopted in terms of political objectives desired by Pakistan in Afghanistan - namely having a perceived pro-India regime of Karzai removed and someone of your proximity installed.


You cannot attain all of the above for as long as there are foreign forces in that country. Someone will have an issue with it at one point or another. The above aim is fine actually. Both Pakistan and India should be doing this, however there is mistrust between the two and for as long this remains, both sides will remain suspicious of each others motives and moves.

What we see here is a knee jerk reaction and bogey of being surrounded being raised by GoP. Mistrust is there, but you have blown it out of proportion just because you want to ensure that India is not involved there and any pro-India tilt government is not allowed to function there either. Its fair - only the cost being imposed on Afghani public is not.


Nobody wants further radicalization. However this trend cannot be stopped if the underlying causes of instability are left unresolved.

Contrary to your post here, the fact remains that the large pool of Afghan veterans is a good pool to direct into Kashmir ......


Indians have never arrested a single Afghan or Pakistani Taliban in IoK. So talking about using Talibs as a tool against India is misguided but makes for good propaganda against Pakistan.

we have had plenty of arrests and subsequent termination of Afghanis ... as also somalis, yemenis and few egyptians. And how are they getting there?


As much as you'd like to wish for this, the reality is different.

I wish it was so, but its not. To my costs I know it.


As far as sealing the border is concerned, first seal the LoC successfully instead of complaining about ingresses all the time. Once you have done this successfully, please impart this methodology to both Pakistan and the US/ISAF side so they too can do the same along the Pak-Afghan border. :cheers:

Oh dont you love it when we cry ... stop border crossings and US jumps on you to do so? We actually do love to raise that bogey ...... the actual crossings are miniscule today as the good Gen Musharraf had the courage to take decisive steps in curbing the movement across into Indian side. However, as your security forces increasingly faces internal pressure, you shall be forced to eject these elements that you had so far restrained, into India ..... it serves your objective of their not gunning for you and your being able to maintain peace in your own country and at the same time bleeding India .......


We will clear out just as soon as the Afghans agree to the border between us and them and they assure us that your side will not be causing trouble for us. Since they cannot guarantee either, the impasse exists.

Assurance = Pro-Pakistani candidate leading the country ???



There is nothing overbearing here. What Pakistan is asking is no different from what you ask the BD government for. Last I checked, you did not want BD to host and support anti-India elements. Pakistan is asking and expecting the same from Afghanistan. When we ask its overbearing, when you do it, its just safeguarding your interests. Nice logic!

Agree nice logic and agree to all posted here .... but which elements are anti-Pakistan there? Apart from obviously the Afghani government?
 
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Says a lot about the propaganda fed Indians and the credibility of your claims.

Read about the myth of Operation Topac here: http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/21420-operation-topac.html?highlight=topac

AM

Somehow I knew you would direct me to the concerned thread:rofl:. You think I have not checked it out already?

As for the said Op. lots of literature exists ... which mentions it. Am sure you can check it up .

As for you rebuttal there .... need I say anything about the credibility of the same?
 
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AM

Somehow I knew you would direct me to the concerned thread:rofl:. You think I have not checked it out already?

As for the said Op. lots of literature exists ... which mentions it. Am sure you can check it up .

As for you rebuttal there .... need I say anything about the credibility of the same?

I'm sorry, but did you just suggest question the credibility of my rebuttal with nothing but a pompous one-liner?

This is typically called trolling.

As I said, the fact that you bandy about such rubbish as 'Operation Topac' when it has quite clearly been debunked (and I see no posts from you on that thread attempting to refute my debunking), then the extent to which Indians such as yourself have been brainwashed to believe these myth's is quite obvious.
 
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Theres no way India could expand its trade to afghanistan and CAR untill the outstanding disputes get resolved .. !
Wats more preferable for NewDelhi , the juice or the never ending conflict with Kashmiri freedom fighters..? NewDelhi is yet to decide , wat to give and wat to take ..!
 
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Road to Kabul should run only through the independent, democratically elected government of Afghanistan and through nowhere else.

Why should Afghans suffer for Pakistan's imagined grievances vis-a-vis India?
Only one word " strange ". A country who provide refuge and fought for their freedom . India who support Moscow for all those 8 years of misery. Our society is ruined by our beloved neighbor ..kalashankov and Heroin ...what else....Pak didn't do any harm to Afghan land...but yes we paying heavy toll as of today of this Afghan war. And still facing troubles.
 
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As I requested , think HARD !
the above quoted are 5 individuals who are Afghan, or influenced by Afghanistan Pakhtuns.

All i am asking is 5 points, where the state of Pakistan has made Afghanistan to suffer.

Although I’m not afghan per say---citizen of Afghanistan...but I’m a Pakhtun(origin is Swabi Pakhtunkhaw) but since my blood, culture, language and identity is Afghan and I’m Nationalist i will answer your question.

1- Pakistan is successor of British Raj for Afghanistan. Meaning Pakistan is successor of same enemy that break Afghanistan with infamous durrand line. Indeed Pakistan existence as a country is cause of her elite’s servitude to those dam farangee.
Below is just a small list history of Pakistan ’s security institutions. I can also provide you the history of all pakistani rulers from M Ali Jenah to ZaiHaq to Ayub.


ISI:
ISI was the brainchild of Australian-born British Army officer, Major General R. Cawthome, then Deputy Chief of Staff in the Pakistan Army.

Pakistan Militray:
Remnant of British India army, made up of Indian-Muslims whom have faithfully served British for 200 years... Including but not limited against Iraq , Afghanistan , World War 1 and 2.


Army:
First two Chief of Army Staff of the Pakistan Army where General Sir Frank Messervy (August 15, 1947 - February 10, 1948) General Sir Douglas David Gracey ( February 11, 1948 - January 16, 1951 .


Pakistan air force.
Air force Chiefs
Air Vice Marshal Allan Perry-Keane (August 15, 1947 - February 17, 1949)
Air Vice Marshal R.L.R. Atcherley (February 18, 1949 - May 6, 1951)
Air Vice Marshal L.W. Cannon (May 7, 1951 - June 19, 1955)
Air Vice Marshal A.W.B. McDonald (June 20, 1955 - July 22, 1957)

Naval Chiefs
Vice Admiral J.W. Jefford CB CBE (August 14, 1947 - January 31, 1953)


Thus its established that paksitan is for afghanistan continuation of British raj, the successor of evil British raj that brought death, misery and division on Afghanistan. To get my massage across more effectively let me give you a simple analogy…consider your and your forefathers have lived in a home for thousands of year… a neighborhood bully comes and occupies half of your home, then when he leaves he gives half of your home to his servant who faithful served him. Would you accept occupation of your home by this servant of bully?

2-The fact is Pakistan was created for Muslims primarily of Indian cultural background based on problems and conflicts which pertained strictly with India. What did us Pakhtuns have to do with it? Absolutely Nothing. More over Pakistan would not have emerged as a nation, had it not been for narrow minded and radical “two nation theory” which upholds religion as base for identity! Thus the core of Pakistan existence is based on extremism that consider only Muslims "Pak" (Farsi word meaning clean, pure). Indeed in absent of national coherence in Pakistan, political Islam has been the ONLY means at the paksitani government’s disposal for enduring the life of Pakistan. Thus naturally Pakistani creates and support terrorist in shape of Taliban and naturally Pakistan will do everything possible to radicalization Pashtons society. You need to ask yourself where does the motivation for that extremism ideology comes from? … Deobandi School of Thought? and many others of the type, **** state-funded mufties, and **** State sponsored Mullahs? Where this religious ideology comes from? It is not surprising that all these things are NOT indigenous to the Pakhtuns at all! Pakhtuns being a proud nation/ethnicity with history going back thousand of years do not need a religious identity. In other words the use of religion as a means for acquiring political power either in Afghanistan or in Pakistan. In fact the crisis of identity is with the Panjabi muslim state Pakistan… which needs religion to bind it together in the absence of any meaningful contract between the various groups for a collective well being of all its citizens. This is why the so called islamist groups like Tablighi Jamhat and Jamhati Islam will not enforce “Sharia” and Islamim against regions oldest brothel Hari Mandi just across Badshahi Masjid---1 mile away from their HQ in Lahore but will come to Pakhtun land to preach Islam…This is all politics since Pashtons nationalism is close-fitting with Afghanistan thus political Islam---extremism is a way to weaken and damage Afghanistan.

3-Unforntuantly Pakistan has nothing interim of economy, culture, history, or identity to influences any country (nothing comparing to India..ex Bollywood) thus extremist that are being feed with gas money of those unethical corrupt golf arab states (whom have their own reason---mainly to channel the anger of their people away from them…ex sending them in Afghanistan to fight “jahad” against “kafirs”) are the only and cheapist way to destroy Afghanistan…keep it weak and in check using islam and terrorism as arm of their foreign policy .

4- I suggest you read Gen Kayhani statement a few weeks ago..where he caution about build up of afghan national army.. meaning a strong, secular and stable Afghanistan will be Pakistan nightmare thus Talibi option.

5-The good news is the world is focusing on forcing GOP to betray their own foreign policy and the thousands of orphans they’ve indoctrinated to their sick cause in the guise of religion. Now we all need to realize that Pakhtun Nationalism in Pakistan is not dead. What happened over the years is that the Pakistan conveniently nurtured in its place an Islamic Nationalism, which defied geographic boundaries among Muslims.(radicalization of Pakhtun youth in Pakistani run Madrassa) This way, they entered an alliance with the old Pakhtun yearning for unity with their brethren in their father/mother land—-Afghanistan, while keeping the rest of Pakistan intact…hence the Pakistani invasion of Afghanistan. It was a clever ploy on the part of Islamabad, but it always remained vulnerable to a re-emergence of Afghan(Pakhtun) nationalism. For this reason, the Pakis harassed, murdered, and destroyed any secular and “progressive” Afghan movement, which threatened their Islamist agenda during the war against the Soviet and beyond. Other means were also employed, including the propagation of Pakhtun supremacy over other Afghan minority groups. They did this by causing rifts and alienating their old Afghan allies who happened to be from other Afghan minority groups. Even when Iran had offered to unite groups trained on their soil with those in Pakistan, Islamabad flatly denied them this request. Ironically for Pakistani elite their greatest “victory” that they can boast about owes itself to this shameful exploitation of deprived and brutalized Afghan youths nurtured in their refugee ghettos and indoctrinated in their immoral “madrassahs” so to wage their precious army’s wars against India and Afghanistan.
 
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Only one word " strange ". A country who provide refuge and fought for their freedom . India who support Moscow for all those 8 years of misery. Our society is ruined by our beloved neighbor ..kalashankov and Heroin ...what else....Pak didn't do any harm to Afghan land...but yes we paying heavy toll as of today of this Afghan war. And still facing troubles.

There are some points you forget...

1- According to national security advisor Brzezinski, the CIA's intervention in Afghanistan throw their proxies Pakistan precedes the 1979 Soviet invasion…thus arming of Afghan refugees started by Pakistan not the other way around as you absurdly claim afghan refugees bringing kalashankov to Pakistan. My father who is from FATA tells me that in old days people of FATA did not had modern weapon, in fact in 60s and 70s they used swords for protection. Meaning it was GOP that brought Kalashankov to Pakhtun/Afghan. Moreover Pakistani politician and army generals got fat rich from aid money intended to afghan refugees, PA got modernize from weapon intended to Afghan Mujahdeen. Just look at life style, homes of retired generals …for ex General Babur and General Hamid Gul of Taxila who owns a transportation company under his daughter’s name...where they got the money to have 3 Banglos? Does GOP pay their generals in millions? Or I suggest you read Gen Mushraf's book “In the line of fire” where he clearly state soviet invasion of Afghanistan was God's gift to Pakistan.

2- Heroin-- Opium cultivation was introduced by British Raj and thus it was from Pakistan—“succor of British Raj” that opium made it to Afghanistan and central Asia. Pakistan elite have been profiting from the drug trade as Angreez were at least since the days of the East India Company and the Russell Trust out of which the Skull and Bones was born. Indeed during the CIA proxy war against PDPA rule of Afghanistan, Pakistan encouraged opium cultivation in order to finance their war on Afghanistan. Even today according to NGO AKBAAR(I try to find the report and post it for you) the chunk of profit of drug trade goes to corrupt afghan and Pakistan army generals.



'Mid-1980s: Pakistani ISI and CIA Gain from Drug Production'

www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item= amid80sisici...

ISI role in drug trafficking bared
www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19 970607/15850...

www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s416859.htm

According to experts, the ISI has a track record of political assassination, state-sponsored terrorism, and drug running

3-In fact Afghan refugees is a blessing for Pakistan, for first it source of cheap labor, second the refugees brings millions of dollar to Pakistan almost bankrupt economy. Almost all Afghans I know here in states have family or extended family in Pakistan and each send hundreds of dollar per month to them. More Afghan refugees Afghan carpet weaving bring $600 million dollars annual to Pakistan economy.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-ne...-carpet-export
“The annual export of carpet a couple of years earlier was around dollar 600 million.
Whereas now, he went on to say, the annual production of carpet has dropped to around 10,000 square meters and the export is about dollar 50 million."


4-Afghan refugees are a source of unlimited income for corrupt and despicable Pakistan police force... i call them despicable cause they are worst then animal... about 10 years ago...i was visiting Islamabad and this policemen thought I’m Afghan...cause i have afghan feature (I'm tall and fair)..he demanded i give him money... worst back then i could not speak Urdu...and with his broken English he could not understand me... finally i had to wave my American passport so he could let me go... upon inquiring...people told me afghan refugees are great sources of income for pakistani police and its not limited to Islamabad but even in Peshawar...they simply stop refugees and demand money...even those with passport and visa gets abused.
 
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Only one word " strange ". A country who provide refuge and fought for their freedom . India who support Moscow for all those 8 years of misery. Our society is ruined by our beloved neighbor ..kalashankov and Heroin ...what else....Pak didn't do any harm to Afghan land...but yes we paying heavy toll as of today of this Afghan war. And still facing troubles.

:yahoo: i love it when people act victim.... budy..just for record..

1- you forget that NWFP is Afghan soil by historical facts.
2- Afghan refugees got radicalized into taliban in Pakistan Madrassah not the other way around. Dewbandi school has its root in Indo-Pakistan not in central Asian culture of Pakhtuns/Afghans.
3-Taliban do not get their brand new weapon from Tokyo...nor the Japanese arm chief raised alarm about boasting ANA--thus seeing stabilization of Afghanistan as against their interest.
 
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Only one word " strange ". A country who provide refuge and fought for their freedom . India who support Moscow for all those 8 years of misery. Our society is ruined by our beloved neighbor ..kalashankov and Heroin ...what else....Pak didn't do any harm to Afghan land...but yes we paying heavy toll as of today of this Afghan war. And still facing troubles.

You do remember the complete period of time after soviets when Pakistan attacked Afghanistan via taliban proxy and the maheym it unleashed in that country. After thay you have the audacity to play the victim here..The toll Pakistan is paying in my view is for the road it travelled by its own choice. The Kalashankov and Heroin were encouraged by the same taliban that Pakistan nurtured and continues to support against the GoA. The problem is that Pakistan's leaders led pakistan into the strategy of proxy wars to get immidiate benefits against India, while ignoring the long term impact of the same which is being felt by the present generation..
 
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Theres no way India could expand its trade to afghanistan and CAR untill the outstanding disputes get resolved .. !
Wats more preferable for NewDelhi , the juice or the never ending conflict with Kashmiri freedom fighters..? NewDelhi is yet to decide , wat to give and wat to take ..!

Afgnaisnta is not surrounded by Pakistan from all sides. Yes, taking land route to Afg is most economical, but thats not the only way in. The juice is flowing and will continue to. But being held hostage on Kashmir to get land access to Afg is a deal India will simply pass
 
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So, Pakistan is that worst now and Afghan hates Pakistan and its establishment, then why everyone wants Pakistan to help establish peace in Afghanistan?. If Afghanies are so concerned about their motherland, then why they settled in Pakistan and never went back?.
OK, NWFP is part of Afghanistan, then what next, why not merge NWFP in Afghanistan ? . Its because people of NWFP are much more educated and they hates to see Afghanis spitting and chewing " gandarian" in and around Peshawar. So, guys take your theories someone who don't know.
As far as Indian, before and after Soviet invasion, Indian used Afghanistan for anti Pak activity.
Pak has still millions of settle Afghanis in every mohallah and every gali. They don't want to go back Afghanistan. Not because of unstable condition. Now their kids goes in good schools in Pakistan and they are living far better life then any place else.
Bribe in police is common problem, its not just Afghan looking men, its for everyone.
 
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So, Pakistan is that worst now and Afghan hates Pakistan and its establishment, then why everyone wants Pakistan to help establish peace in Afghanistan?. If Afghanies are so concerned about their motherland, then why they settled in Pakistan and never went back?.
OK, NWFP is part of Afghanistan, then what next, why not merge NWFP in Afghanistan ? . Its because people of NWFP are much more educated and they hates to see Afghanis spitting and chewing " gandarian" in and around Peshawar. So, guys take your theories someone who don't know.
As far as Indian, before and after Soviet invasion, Indian used Afghanistan for anti Pak activity.
Pak has still millions of settle Afghanis in every mohallah and every gali. They don't want to go back Afghanistan. Not because of unstable condition. Now their kids goes in good schools in Pakistan and they are living far better life then any place else.
Bribe in police is common problem, its not just Afghan looking men, its for everyone.

That guy is from Pakistan who wrote those comments to you.
 
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