The Reality of US Aid to Pakistan

[Hulk]

This latest controversy appears to revolve around a sum of $6.6 billion given to Pakistan - now this sum matches up with the $6.6 billion in reimbursements given to the government for providing logistical support to NATO and conducting operations in support of NATO.

Moin Ansari explains that pretty clearly in the article in the first post of this thread. Pakistan pays for the logistical support and the cost of operations out of its own pocket, submits the bills to the US, and is reimbursed later. So when the money does arrive, as Musharraf argued, it is Pakistani money, not US - payments for goods and services provided, and since it is Pakistani money, the GoP can do what it likes with it.

Agreed, any reimbursement made for services offered is Pakistan's money. Even if they charge little extra they have the right to do so.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agreed, any reimbursement made for services offered is Pakistan's money. Even if they charge little extra they have the right to do so.

What's 'little extra'? And as I pointed out, the US had questions over 400 million worth of charges, and they ended up agreeing to reimburse those as well after the charges were clarified.

The US has the right to not reimburse any expenses it does not deem legitimate, and in such a massive billing process, no doubt there will be inadvertent errors - that is what accountants are for.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Who told you i am against western good policies and social well fare and justice system, actually they are following islamic principles.

Crisis States Research Centre responsible to announce yearly fail state status , Pakistan is at number 10.I think their judgement is accurate.

I said culture, not policies, kindly read with concentration if you are serious about having a serious discussion. Well if you believe the statements by CSRC good for you, as your attitude & views here about issues of Pakistan are well understood now with this clarification.

Present power and food shortages is due to bad planning of musharaf regime.

He ignored World bank indications and avoided construction of new dams (kalabag) for water and power resourse development , we need cheap power and water for irrigation and industry which was ignored by Musharaf , it was his biggest mistake.

Musharaf bad planning ?? There is more then 3 lac ton sugar in the country, every day sugar mills are being seized with 000s & hundred thousand of sugar sacks, meaning enough sugar is in the country & u blame this on Muharaf ? Hoarders doing is being blamed on Musharaf ?? U really need to get a funny sitcom program for yourself to express such views.

He avoided Kalabagh dam ?? U serious?? I do hope you have read a newspaper in your life, specially when the kalabagh dam issue was hot & do hope you know that the current govt closed that file. Don't think so.

Their is no money for corruption left in banks , so there is no question of recovery.

What the hell money in banks has to do with corruption ?? Such an ignorant reply I have never seen. You sometimes seriously seem to be high when posting such remarks.

Musharaf was provided safe passage in deal , so he is responsible for present corrupt regime.

What are you talking about ?? I am talking about the recent bill in which the graduate condition for eligibility to become a member of the parliament was scratched & now an illiterate can sit in the assembly. U have no clue what you are talking about.

Good story , keep it up

Just that ?? This is the best you can come to actual facts.

Present government have to folow the path of distruction laid by by Musharaf , dont expect any improvement untill we break deal with US done by Musharaf.

What has this to do with Musharaf ?? Do you have any clue what you are talking about here ??

Gen Zia is saheed millat killed by enemy of islam .who are enemies of islam ,itself a long debate.

Good way to finish something when you don't have anything to write something useful

Be ready for more hikes due to deal of present government with IMF.

And you say that the current govt had no time to show any performance. Wow, so thoughtful of you.



Fundamentalist, I have told you before that before coming to this forum & wanting to indulge in some serious discussion, then come with an open mind with a thought to learn something & again telling you to come prepared with some information by reading about problems, solutions, reality, facts so that you can have a useful discussion nor wasting the time of people on this forum who wish to have a serious discussion of thoughts & learn.

Your attitude is just like a Politician, who has the guts to throw allegations but when the time comes to back or listen to counter arguments, either runs away or speaks idiotic & stupids things just like what you have mentioned above. Before talking, should know what you are talking about & have a civilized discussion. Do read about Pakistan & its issues & day to day happening, then plz come & post remarks. Don't waste senior peoples time on childish remarks of yours. Thx

 

[waraich66]

I said culture, not policies, kindly read with concentration if you are serious about having a serious discussion. Well if you believe the statements by CSRC good for you, as your attitude & views here about issues of Pakistan are well understood now with this clarification.





Musharaf bad planning ?? There is more then 3 lac ton sugar in the country, every day sugar mills are being seized with 000s & hundred thousand of sugar sacks, meaning enough sugar is in the country & u blame this on Muharaf ? Hoarders doing is being blamed on Musharaf ?? U really need to get a funny sitcom program for yourself to express such views.

He avoided Kalabagh dam ?? U serious?? I do hope you have read a newspaper in your life, specially when the kalabagh dam issue was hot & do hope you know that the current govt closed that file. Don't think so.



What the hell money in banks has to do with corruption ?? Such an ignorant reply I have never seen. You sometimes seriously seem to be high when posting such remarks.



What are you talking about ?? I am talking about the recent bill in which the graduate condition for eligibility to become a member of the parliament was scratched & now an illiterate can sit in the assembly. U have no clue what you are talking about.



Just that ?? This is the best you can come to actual facts.




What has this to do with Musharaf ?? Do you have any clue what you are talking about here ??




Good way to finish something when you don't have anything to write something useful





And you say that the current govt had no time to show any performance. Wow, so thoughtful of you.



Fundamentalist, I have told you before that before coming to this forum & wanting to indulge in some serious discussion, then come with an open mind with a thought to learn something & again telling you to come prepared with some information by reading about problems, solutions, reality, facts so that you can have a useful discussion nor wasting the time of people on this forum who wish to have a serious discussion of thoughts & learn.

Your attitude is just like a Politician, who has the guts to throw allegations but when the time comes to back or listen to counter arguments, either runs away or speaks idiotic & stupids things just like what you have mentioned above. Before talking, should know what you are talking about & have a civilized discussion. Do read about Pakistan & its issues & day to day happening, then plz come & post remarks. Don't waste senior peoples time on childish remarks of yours. Thx

Totally confused and idealistic approach

You have lack of experience which you will gain with passage of time.

Please consentrate on facts and figures and try to be practical and realistic

I have experience same of your age,grow and learn boy

 

[All-Green]

I have also first hand knowledge , ie personaly know and met great general Gen Hamza (hero of 1971 war), Gen Ghulam Muhammad SSG, Gen latif , Gen Javad Nasir.

Forgive me but i would rather trust my father, uncles and many dozens of acquaintances who all reiterate the same thoughts which i have reflected here, these people were the unit commanders at the time and were more in touch with the pulse of the Army.
My father was a war veteran and was posted in Parachinar area during Afghan War as well, most officers were extremely concerned about the import of extremists from all over the world to fight the Soviets...Also of high risk was the complete freedom given to the Afghans in Pakistan without check and balance...this was something which was seen as a disaster by most of the Army...when the war would have finished, these warriors would be left without a job and without a home since their countries were quite pleased to be rid of them...

The volume of drugs and weapons which infiltrated Pakistan in Zia era were previously unthinkable and unheard of...this was a huge evil which infested Pakistan under the guise of Jihad and Zia did nothing to ensure that Pakistan is protected from such threats...

The green passport gained notoriety because of the Afghan drug runners courtesy the stupid and sheerly disastrous policies of Zia...

Zia has a major hand in the current instability of Pakistan, that is not something concocted it is based on the facts mentioned above...

Who told you that zia damaged army ,please stop this negative propoganda, yes he stopped induction and kadiyanis officers promotions.

You forget his hypocrisy when he committed to hold elections but then went the so called Islamic way and lambasted democracy altogether, it is a case of ideology shift which he perpetrated by using Islam as an excuse to retain his power...the extent to which he went to promote his cause as Islamic was really a disaster for Pakistan...the constitution of Pakistan was not Un Islamic, yet Zia portrayed that we had been kidding about Islam before and only he was the certified expert to take us on a true path...

So Pakistan Army is only for Muslims?
Thanks for clarifying on behalf of Zia, though i cannot digest the fact that the same Zia had no reservation and shame about trying to greet Dr. Abdul Salam on a state level when he got the nobel prize...when as per Zia's own amendments to the constitution...the good doctor could have been punished for breaching the law...

It was funny how Abdul Salam's speech was edited to not show the public when he gave references of the Quran when addressing the gathering at the Nobel award ceremony...
Also funny that as per Zia's constitutional amendments...Dr. Abdul Salam could have been imprisoned for 6 months for calling himself Muslim...still Zia met him because he had to save his face...

Why then meet him if the Kadiyani got a Nobel prize...suddenly he became an equal Pakistani instead of an untrustworthy heretic Pakistani?

Dr. Abdul Salam was a great scientist and a patriotic Pakistani...his nobel prize was called a Jewish and Qadiani conspiracy by some great religious zealots and his lectures in Pakistan could not be held in many places in wake of threats from the very religious parties that Zia nurtured...
If you do not believe me then read about him and what his fellow scientists or his associates from his student and teaching days say about him...we issued a stamp in his name quite recently in 1998 and there was no name of him anywhere in Zia era except for the Tamgha which Zia had to give to save face of Pakistan...shameful when one of the world's biggest physics research facility is in his name...we have ignored him for most part...

Calling Kadiyani's in official documents as Ahmedis was enough to send the message across and to safeguard any damage to Islam...
To enact further laws and SOPs to make everyone in the Kadiyani community feel as if they were being targeted by the state was stupid...Victimizing the Kadiyani officers who were patriot Pakistani's first was not at all something admirable...

And just for the record, Zia era promotions were heavily infused with the prerequisite of politically correct views, most of officers in disagreement with Zia's political takeover of the country were not given a positive rating, especially if they displayed a tendency to do the politically incorrect thing during Marshall Law duty...Anyways i am not saying that no good person was promoted...the point is that many incapable officers stood a better chance over the more capable ones and that had a negative effect on Army...

The current command has adhered to a much more professional promotion criteria as befits Pak Fauj...

What seperate herritage ? Islamic is our religion and culture .I have doubts about your understanding of basics of islam.

Hmmm...another case of calling out the heretic?
You think anyone you do not see eye to eye with is a person with weak Imaan?

Do not jump the gun...Relax and try to understand that there are Muslims who are not Arabs and have their own history and customs which does not negate Islam...why should i feel that Arabs are superior whereas we are all equal in Islam?
Why not focus on the history of my other ancestors who contributed to the culture of the world even though they had not yet seen the light of Islam?
Are we a country just for Muslims or for all people who call themselves Pakistani...in that case would not a Pakistani student wish to learn about all the wonderful things which were carried out in this land of ours without just focusing on our Muslim heroes whom we all love and appreciate?
Why the fear that this will undermine Islam, this will never do such a thing...however Zia wanted to project himself the guardian of Islam in order to retain his power so he went overboard in all what he did...to retain his hold on the country...look at the religious extremism in Pakistan...linking religion to militancy created a backlash that we are still suffering from...thank Zia for it...

Persians respect their Persian ancestors and the good things they did, still they are good Muslims as well...

Zia defeated Russia other wise you are part Russian culture .

Stop listening to Hameed Gul...
Yes we helped tilt the balance but we did not defeat Russia on our own, least of all Zia alone...
US defeated Russia by using Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The entire world got rid of their extremists by sending them off to Pakistan, Pakistan was stuck with the unwanted extremists after the War...
Pakistan got millions of refugees whom our GOP thanks to its great leader went ahead and assimilated into the population without caring for the obvious implications of such a step...
Zia bears the responsibility for leading Pakistan from one threat into a certain trap...the fact that he did not even take some safety measures to at least protect the future of Pakistan from the extremists goes to show that he was entirely incompetent to perceive the threat...a major reason was his cosmetic Islamic requirements...

Economic indicators were not good that is reason Pakistan listed in failed state.

The whole world saw Pakistan become stable economically and here you are with another strange comment...which indicator are you talking about?

After three days army was sent to effected areas , another good example of good governance.

Very cheeky my friend, if a bit below the belt...

More than 80% of PA mountain animal transport perished in the earthquake...the PA was worst hit actually...still they managed to catch up with alternate plans...
PA has always been there during natural disasters and i do not need to quote any reference...
They even repaired your barrages and waterworks for free which other companies were going to charge millions of dollars...this was during the Musharraf era by the way...

Musharaf is responsible for creation of TTP due to his dealS with US
Still you like Musharaf ? Strange

Another one who justifies TTP?
Very sad to see...
TTP has no reason to exist except to terrorize Pakistan...they are not anti US and despite their claims...they do not fight US, they fight only Pakistan...i am surprised that you do not see this simple case of an attempt to pit Pak Fauj against Afghan Taliban...Pakistan should remain neutral in the affairs of Afghans...

Mullah Omar never targeted Pakistan because he knows that Pakistan does not want Afghans to suffer, what Pakistan did was to safeguard it self, however it tried its best to try to mediate and no one can deny that Pakistan was the last country to break ties with Afghanistan and the reason was that our mediation failed...still we did not ever target the Afghans ourselves and we shall not do that...they know this and see US as their primary enemy...
The Afghans did not venture into Russia after the defeated Russian Army, they only fight those who occupy their own soil, with extreme hate...

TTP is the attempt to destabilize Pakistan by using rogue extremists ....
By virtue of the ensuing conflict a very visible campaign has been carried out to brand the Afghan freedom fighters and the terrorists as the same thing...
Another aspect could be to force PA directly to attack the Afghan freedom fighters...which PA should never do since that is the one thing that shall be detrimental to our future stability...
However the fact remains that we have to take on TTP, whether they have a foreign master or not is something we can think about while eliminating them...if they are anyone's lapdogs, killing them will make the master clear about what Pakistan will do to its enemies...let us fight the fight and take the rest in stride...

You see the presence of foreign forces have made the Afghans in the Pashtun belt united with Omar in this fight for freedom...Karzai is hated in these regions as someone who wants to humiliate Pashtuns by giving all power to the Northern Alliance leaders...he is not someone the Pashtuns respect and that is why there is a stiff resistance...this is the reason even US is now showing willingness to talk to the Taliban...

Coming to Musharraf, he was much better then Zia but still a usurper...however he showed acumen and traits which are the hallmark of a good leader...so yes i like him much better than Zia...
Does it mean i say he did not make mistakes...Not at all

 

[TaimiKhan]

Forgive me but i would rather trust my father, uncles and many dozens of acquaintances who all reiterate the same thoughts which i have reflected here, these people were the unit commanders at the time and were more in touch with the pulse of the Army.
My father was a war veteran and was posted in Parachinar area during Afghan War as well, most officers were extremely concerned about the import of extremists from all over the world to fight the Soviets...Also of high risk was the complete freedom given to the Afghans in Pakistan without check and balance...this was something which was seen as a disaster by most of the Army...when the war would have finished, these warriors would be left without a job and without a home since their countries were quite pleased to be rid of them...

The volume of drugs and weapons which infiltrated Pakistan in Zia era were previously unthinkable and unheard of...this was a huge evil which infested Pakistan under the guise of Jihad and Zia did nothing to ensure that Pakistan is protected from such threats...

The green passport gained notoriety because of the Afghan drug runners courtesy the stupid and sheerly disastrous policies of Zia...

Zia has a major hand in the current instability of Pakistan, that is not something concocted it is based on the facts mentioned above...



You forget his hypocrisy when he committed to hold elections but then went the so called Islamic way and lambasted democracy altogether, it is a case of ideology shift which he perpetrated by using Islam as an excuse to retain his power...the extent to which he went to promote his cause as Islamic was really a disaster for Pakistan...the constitution of Pakistan was not Un Islamic, yet Zia portrayed that we had been kidding about Islam before and only he was the certified expert to take us on a true path...

So Pakistan Army is only for Muslims?
Thanks for clarifying on behalf of Zia, though i cannot digest the fact that the same Zia had no reservation and shame about trying to greet Dr. Abdul Salam on a state level when he got the nobel prize...when as per Zia's own amendments to the constitution...the good doctor could have been punished for breaching the law...

It was funny how Abdul Salam's speech was edited to not show the public when he gave references of the Quran when addressing the gathering at the Nobel award ceremony...
Also funny that as per Zia's constitutional amendments...Dr. Abdul Salam could have been imprisoned for 6 months for calling himself Muslim...still Zia met him because he had to save his face...

Why then meet him if the Kadiyani got a Nobel prize...suddenly he became an equal Pakistani instead of an untrustworthy heretic Pakistani?

Dr. Abdul Salam was a great scientist and a patriotic Pakistani...his nobel prize was called a Jewish and Qadiani conspiracy by some great religious zealots and his lectures in Pakistan could not be held in many places in wake of threats from the very religious parties that Zia nurtured...
If you do not believe me then read about him and what his fellow scientists or his associates from his student and teaching days say about him...we issued a stamp in his name quite recently in 1998 and there was no name of him anywhere in Zia era except for the Tamgha which Zia had to give to save face of Pakistan...shameful when one of the world's biggest physics research facility is in his name...we have ignored him for most part...

Calling Kadiyani's in official documents as Ahmedis was enough to send the message across and to safeguard any damage to Islam...
To enact further laws and SOPs to make everyone in the Kadiyani community feel as if they were being targeted by the state was stupid...Victimizing the Kadiyani officers who were patriot Pakistani's first was not at all something admirable...

And just for the record, Zia era promotions were heavily infused with the prerequisite of politically correct views, most of officers in disagreement with Zia's political takeover of the country were not given a positive rating, especially if they displayed a tendency to do the politically incorrect thing during Marshall Law duty...Anyways i am not saying that no good person was promoted...the point is that many incapable officers stood a better chance over the more capable ones and that had a negative effect on Army...

The current command has adhered to a much more professional promotion criteria as befits Pak Fauj...



Hmmm...another case of calling out the heretic?
You think anyone you do not see eye to eye with is a person with weak Imaan?

Do not jump the gun...Relax and try to understand that there are Muslims who are not Arabs and have their own history and customs which does not negate Islam...why should i feel that Arabs are superior whereas we are all equal in Islam?
Why not focus on the history of my other ancestors who contributed to the culture of the world even though they had not yet seen the light of Islam?
Are we a country just for Muslims or for all people who call themselves Pakistani...in that case would not a Pakistani student wish to learn about all the wonderful things which were carried out in this land of ours without just focusing on our Muslim heroes whom we all love and appreciate?
Why the fear that this will undermine Islam, this will never do such a thing...however Zia wanted to project himself the guardian of Islam in order to retain his power so he went overboard in all what he did...to retain his hold on the country...look at the religious extremism in Pakistan...linking religion to militancy created a backlash that we are still suffering from...thank Zia for it...

Persians respect their Persian ancestors and the good things they did, still they are good Muslims as well...




Stop listening to Hameed Gul...
Yes we helped tilt the balance but we did not defeat Russia on our own, least of all Zia alone...
US defeated Russia by using Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The entire world got rid of their extremists by sending them off to Pakistan, Pakistan was stuck with the unwanted extremists after the War...
Pakistan got millions of refugees whom our GOP thanks to its great leader went ahead and assimilated into the population without caring for the obvious implications of such a step...
Zia bears the responsibility for leading Pakistan from one threat into a certain trap...the fact that he did not even take some safety measures to at least protect the future of Pakistan from the extremists goes to show that he was entirely incompetent to perceive the threat...a major reason was his cosmetic Islamic requirements...


The whole world saw Pakistan become stable economically and here you are with another strange comment...which indicator are you talking about?



Very cheeky my friend, if a bit below the belt...

More than 80% of PA mountain animal transport perished in the earthquake...the PA was worst hit actually...still they managed to catch up with alternate plans...
PA has always been there during natural disasters and i do not need to quote any reference...
They even repaired your barrages and waterworks for free which other companies were going to charge millions of dollars...this was during the Musharraf era by the way...



Another one who justifies TTP?
Very sad to see...
TTP has no reason to exist except to terrorize Pakistan...they are not anti US and despite their claims...they do not fight US, they fight only Pakistan...i am surprised that you do not see this simple case of an attempt to pit Pak Fauj against Afghan Taliban...

Mullah Omar never targeted Pakistan because he knows that Pakistan does not want Afghans to suffer, what Pakistan did was to safeguard it self, however it tried its best to try to mediate and no one can deny that Pakistan was the last country to break ties with Afghanistan and the reason was that our mediation failed...still we did not ever target the Afghans ourselves and we shall not do that...they know this and see US as their primary enemy...
The Afghans did not venture into Russia after the defeated Russian Army, they only fight those who occupy their own soil, with extreme hate...

TTP is the attempt to destabilize Pakistan by using rogue extremists ....
By virtue of the ensuing conflict a very visible campaign has been carried out to brand the Afghan freedom fighters and the terrorists as the same thing...
Another aspect could be to force PA directly to attack the Afghan freedom fighters...which PA should never do since that is the one thing that shall be detrimental to our future stability...

You see the presence of foreign forces have made the Afghans in the Pashtun belt united with Omar in this fight for freedom...Karzai is hated in these regions as someone who wants to humiliate Pashtuns by giving all power to the Northern Alliance leaders...he is not someone the Pashtuns respect and that is why there is a stiff resistance...this is the reason even US is now showing willingness to talk to the Taliban...

Coming to Musharraf, he was much better then Zia but still a usurper...however he showed acumen and traits which are the hallmark of a good leader...so yes i like him much better than Zia...
Does it mean i say he did not make mistakes...Not at all

Sir, an excellent analysis & facts presentation, but with regret i say that you have wasted your precious time & energy to make understand the targeted audience who has/have no interest in learning about history or to know about real facts & change their pathetic biased thinking.

 

[waraich66]

=All-Green;512534]

Forgive me but i would rather trust my father, uncles and many dozens of acquaintances who all reiterate the same thoughts which i have reflected here, these people were the unit commanders at the time and were more in touch with the pulse of the Army.
My father was a war veteran and was posted in Parachinar area during Afghan War as well, most officers were extremely concerned about the import of extremists from all over the world to fight the Soviets...Also of high risk was the complete freedom given to the Afghans in Pakistan without check and balance...this was something which was seen as a disaster by most of the Army...when the war would have finished, these warriors would be left without a job and without a home since their countries were quite pleased to be rid of them...

I know you are pro PPP , so your analysis is not neutral .

Remember one thing Afghan Russian war was not just war it was jehad and jehad can never be finished a continouse action against Batil.

Afghan never invited GOP/PA for their help , Zia involved in this war for self servival and protection in which he suceed.

The volume of drugs and weapons which infiltrated Pakistan in Zia era were previously unthinkable and unheard of...this was a huge evil which infested Pakistan under the guise of Jihad and Zia did nothing to ensure that Pakistan is protected from such threats...

The green passport gained notoriety because of the Afghan drug runners courtesy the stupid and sheerly disastrous policies of Zia...

Zia has a major hand in the current instability of Pakistan, that is not something concocted it is based on the facts mentioned above...

Russuian planned to corrupt whole nation with drug and ammunation,i which they failed.
Zia never allowed these things , why should he ? he dont need any US protection or money , he fought and died in Pakistan soil, i salute him.

I dont think Musharaf could ever come to Pakistan.

You forget his hypocrisy when he committed to hold elections but then went the so called Islamic way and lambasted democracy altogether, it is a case of ideology shift which he perpetrated by using Islam as an excuse to retain his power...the extent to which he went to promote his cause as Islamic was really a disaster for Pakistan...the constitution of Pakistan was not Un Islamic, yet Zia portrayed that we had been kidding about Islam before and only he was the certified expert to take us on a true path...

He tried to make Pakistan a true Islamic democratic country and proceed the country in right direction to implement islam completely, which is not simple and easy task , anyhow he performed his duty well, we achieved nuke capability in his tenor what else you want?

So Pakistan Army is only for Muslims?
Thanks for clarifying on behalf of Zia, though i cannot digest the fact that the same Zia had no reservation and shame about trying to greet Dr. Abdul Salam on a state level when he got the nobel prize...when as per Zia's own amendments to the constitution...the good doctor could have been punished for breaching the law...

It was funny how Abdul Salam's speech was edited to not show the public when he gave references of the Quran when addressing the gathering at the Nobel award ceremony...
Also funny that as per Zia's constitutional amendments...Dr. Abdul Salam could have been imprisoned for 6 months for calling himself Muslim...still Zia met him because he had to save his face...

Dr Abdul Salam was qadyani and we have respect for him as for other minorities in Pakistan as per Islamic teachings.

Why then meet him if the Kadiyani got a Nobel prize...suddenly he became an equal Pakistani instead of an untrustworthy heretic Pakistani?

 

[waraich66]

Sir, an excellent analysis & facts presentation, but with regret i say that you have wasted your precious time & energy to make understand the targeted audience who has/have no interest in learning about history or to know about real facts & change their pathetic biased thinking.

You should act like senior member now, grow up man

Personal attack is very easy but to convince some body with positive approach and constructive ideas and references is most difficult .

 

[TaimiKhan]

You should act like senior member now, grow up man

Personal attack is very easy but to convince some body with positive approach and constructive ideas and references is most difficult .

I am acting like a senior & mature person & think with my mind & heart both.

There is no personal attack, its a very honest opinion which is based on facts recorded & seen in the form of posts posted by other members who try to convince some body (with very wrong facts, thoughts & biased approach) with positive approach and constructive ideas and references. And many times its not just difficult rather impossible to convince them, so why wasting more of someone's precious time in trying to keep convincing those members who are among the impossibles. Specially when the other side does not acknowledges a single attempt & even after coming to know they are wrong, sticks to their guns.

 

[All-Green]

I know you are pro PPP , so your analysis is not neutral .

Do you really know that for sure?
My god, you really cannot sustain any argument without doubting my Islam or branding me as pro something...relax man...i am not an agent and i am only on the side of Pakistan...

For the record, i blame Bhutto for 71, I strongly dislike even BB so you can well imagine what my affiliation with PPP would have been...still you think i am pro PPP so i guess you know me better than myself...

Anyways, i have written all what i have researched and what I sincerely believe so that the forum sees things from my perspective as well...the truth is always difficult to digest...

You understanding is absolutley wrong ,Zia performed his duty as per constitution of Pakistan, minorities awarded with medals if they perform for the service of nation.

Regarding your long attempt to refute my argument i would say one thing...Zia was a hypocrite...
when the constitution said that any Kadiyani calling himself Muslim was to be punished then why did he meet with Dr. Abdul Salam and award him the medal?
If he awarded him a medal then that means Zia's Islamic constitution could be flexible...if the Kadiyani in question was privileged enough to win a Nobel Prize...very noble indeed...or should i say nobel?

I am not Kadiyani (before you pin this on me as well) and i agree that they cannot be called Muslims, however Zia went overboard to create his Islamic Pakistan...
Had there been no such law in Pakistan then Zia's meeting and award would have been perfectly normal...since he himself was the chief architect of this law then he is a hypocrite for breaching it...

No body is preventing you to read history of pre islamic era

Thank you sir, now i shall read again without a fear...

You missed my point entirely, this should be part of our syllabus, it will make us stronger and not weaker...

I have been reading Islamic history since i was 7 or 8 and it is one of the most favorite subjects of mine...however the history of this region in which we live in should be taught in its entirety...
My ancestors are not Arabs, they converted to Islam not Arabism and they had their unique cultural flavor which still remains within the guidelines of Islam...no need to censure our history by not teaching our children our heritage in its totality...

Russuian planned to corrupt whole nation with drug and ammunation,i which they failed.
Zia never allowed these things , why should he ? he dont need any US protection or money , he fought and died in Pakistan soil, i salute him.
I dont think Musharaf could ever come to Pakistan.

Ok, Zia did not need US money or protection?
Excuse me but are we talking about the same Zia who was the key Ally of US?
Why do you think he is far superior to Musharraf...because he died in a plane crash?
Hell of a criteria, if you mind my expression...

The drug and weapons are courtesy the unchecked influx of Afghans and god knows who into heartland of Pakistan...do not beat about the bush...this is a fact known to all Pakistanis...
Once the refugees settled without check and balance, the agents amongst them could serve any nation...do not blame the enemies, blame your inept ruler for allowing it to happen...

 

[TaimiKhan]

Answer my only one question , Insurgency started in FATA after US attack in Afghanistan , it is true or not?

And can you tell, if US attacked Afghanistan, why insurgency started in FATA ?? Is FATA & Afghanistan the same ?? Isn't FATA part of Pakistan ?? So shouldn't the insurgency be limited to Afghanistan only ?? Who gave the right to the Taliban to come here & start it ?? The world is saying that Taliban hold 72% of the Afghanistan, why doesn't the Al Qaeda, Taliban or the TTP go there & fight US from this 72% controlled land ??

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------

So we call Benazir a Shaheed as well and forgive all her corruption and her disastrous tenure in the office?
Once again...not a very strong argument my friend...

Will never hear one

 

[All-Green]

Just tested your reaction and suceed in my test.I reached to conclusion

I never said in my post that you are Qadyani , why you are so proactive about qadyanis?

Again , you are little bit confused here , islam and iman is our real strength , we need to protect our iman for our servival.

We have follow Quran and Sunnah for guidance.Islam is our only culture rest is history .

He was in uniform and was on duty , he is shaheed .

Your hero is wanted , wait for his end

There is a difference between an unsuspected political assassination and a warrior embracing martyrdom on the field of battle...hope your vast knowledge of Islam helps you in distinguishing between the two categories...
Had the person in question been of great character i would have called him a Shaheed, in this case i have my reservation about his character as a man and hence my doubt...this is perfectly in line with Islamic principle of Martyrdom...
Rest Allah knows best...and i wish him no ill in the afterlife...

Musharraf is not my hero, if that is what you are implying...we all have to die...so will he...

So had Musharraf died in a plane crash or an assassination attempt when wearing uniform you would say that he would have been a Shaheed?
So Musharraf was a potential Shaheed who narrowly missed Shahadat?
Clearly Shahadat is a bit more complicated than that...and that is what i am saying.

Regarding the Kadiyanis, i have just used their example to present one of the many aspects of Zia's hypocrisy...since i am speaking against Zia you automatically labeled me PPP so i thought of saving you some bandwidth here and letting you know that i am also not a Kadiyani...

So Islam is our only culture?
That is a most narrow view of culture i have heard, Islam is a major part of our culture, culture is formed by all things and even technology impacts culture in a dramatic manner...even mobile phones have become part of our culture...are they Islamic?
I mean Islam will always be 90% of our culture but does not mean we view the 10% as alien culture...also the non Muslims have also contributed a lot to Pakistan and we need to take this into account when writing our school books and our history books...we ignore these aspects and that is what i want to be remedied...

Once again, Islam is in our blood...nobody can take it away...but to be averse to our so called ancient history is not a good thing and makes it seem that all of us are just settlers here in this land and have no affiliation with it prior to Islam, this is untrue...

 

[waraich66]

There is a difference between an unsuspected political assassination and a warrior embracing martyrdom on the field of battle...hope your vast knowledge of Islam helps you in distinguishing between the two categories...
Had the person in question been of great character i would have called him a Shaheed, in this case i have my reservation about his character as a man and hence my doubt...this is perfectly in line with Islamic principle of Martyrdom...
Rest Allah knows best...and i wish him no ill in the afterlife...

Yes , Shadat have levels .You were college boy when he died , how you can judge his character ? just believing on man made stories or analysis , you should see the ground realities and results of his actions.

He was greatest mujahid of last century in whole muslim world.He defeated Russia,built nukes and missiles technology.He was planing to liberate Kashmir .

Musharraf is not my hero, if that is what you are implying...we all have to die...so will he...


So had Musharraf died in a plane crash or an assassination attempt when wearing uniform you would say that he would have been a Shaheed?
So Musharraf was a potential Shaheed who narrowly missed Shahadat?
Clearly Shahadat is a bit more complicated than that...and that is what i am saying.

Shahadat is very simple not complicated ,Allah know better who s shaheed who is not.

Regarding the Kadiyanis, i have just used their example to present one of the many aspects of Zia's hypocrisy...since i am speaking against Zia you automatically labeled me PPP so i thought of saving you some bandwidth here and letting you know that i am also not a Kadiyani...

I cant understand your logic to prove Zia hypocrate, President of Pakistan could not enemy of any monority , for your information Zia's surgen in RMC was Qadiyani.

So Islam is our only culture?
That is a most narrow view of culture i have heard, Islam is a major part of our culture, culture is formed by all things and even technology impacts culture in a dramatic manner...even mobile phones have become part of our culture...are they Islamic?
I mean Islam will always be 90% of our culture but does not mean we view the 10% as alien culture...also the non Muslims have also contributed a lot to Pakistan and we need to take this into account when writing our school books and our history books...we ignore these aspects and that is what i want to be remedied...

Once again, Islam is in our blood...nobody can take it away...but to be averse to our so called ancient history is not a good thing and makes it seem that all of us are just settlers here in this land and have no affiliation with it prior to Islam, this is untrue...

Islamic is progressive religion dont oppose any technological advancement , any culture old or new which clashes with islamic teaching can not be allowed for muslims to perserve or practice .

We have to keep us with in the boundary limit of islam

Any culture prior to islamic period shall not be considered islamic.

For example qawali basically drived from hindu culture and go to grave of sufi baba for manat or murad have links with hindu religion.

Islam is straight forward religion guide us towards Allah who have all powers and control of universe.

Live or dead sufi baba can not give benefit to any one without the will of Allah.

 

[sparklingway]

f) He brought the concept of privatization , which improved
competetion and lowered cost

He brought the "concept" of privatization? Is that a figment of your imagination are you just plain uninformed?

Privatization of State Owned Enterprises went into full gear for the first time in '88 (read history here). It is a highly debatable topic whether privatization is useful for a traditional economic society such as ours and whether liberalization of an economy should necessarily include privatization or not.

As for commando's privatizations, they are the ones marked by the largest amount of corruption ever in the process of privatization in our country. Only profitable SOEs were privatized. National burdens weren't privatized because nobody wants to buy them. Kickbacks ensured the loot sale of SOEs.

Charge Sheet :-
Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM): Privatization was to take place in 2006. A 75% share was given to a consortium of Russian Magnitogorsk Iron & Steel Works, Saudi Arabia-based Al-Tuwairqi Group of Companies and Arif Habib Securities (Arif Habib is a famous Shaukat Aziz henchman allegedly involved in many other financial scandals with his buddy). The SC after a suo moto notice by the CJ declared the privatization null and void deeming it in "bad taste", clearly meaning that there were a lot of dirty hands involved in the matter.

It has been speculated that the worth of the land itself was more than the Rs. 21.75 Billion the industry was sold for.

"Speakers on the occasion pointed out that the Rs300 billion worth concern had been handed over to the private sector parties at a throw-away price of Rs21.75 billion"

"The speakers said that according to the PS finance director, the mills had generated Rs26.1 billion revenue in 2000 and its pre-tax profit stood at Rs 4.85 billion. ... in the year 2004-05, the mills had generated Rs 31 billion revenues and its pre-tax profit was Rs10 billion. He had quoted the tax amount paid to the government at Rs8.9 billion"

"The labour leaders pointed out that present value of the PS land, at the current rate of Rs 20 million per acre, was around Rs92 billion whereas the mills’ other assets had been estimated at more than Rs150 billion"

Courtesy : Dawn, May 25 - 2006

So, this raises fingers. An industry that had pre tax profits of Rs. 10 billion was being sold for Rs. 21 billion, hardly a fifth of its value and even less than the revenue it generates. Gross Profit in 2004-2005 was 189 million USD and a 75% share was being sold for 302 million USD.




Enough said. No further arguments necessary.

(you might not be interested, but here is the complete judgment of the PSM case - CONSTITUTION PETITION NO. 9 OF 2006 (Wattan Party through Versus Federation of Pakistan) & CIVIL PETITION NOs. 345(Pakistan Steel Peoples Workers Union, CBA Versus Federation of Pakistan) & 394 OF 2006(Federation of Pakistan Versus Pakistan Steel Peoples Workers Union)

No further comments necessary.


PTCL : 26% shares sold to Etisalat in 2005 for 2.598 Billion USD. Even after 5 years, 799.3 million USD have not been paid. PTCL's profits have fallen and its in a complete mess. Privatization only brought more troubles. Shiekh CEOs are hated by the work force as they're eating they company down. Don't say that they've brought DSL or any new services as this will show lack of knowledge in this regard. The issue has been discussed on Pro-Pakistani as well.

"At the time of its privatization in 2005, PTCL had posted revenues of 84 billion rupees, with earnings before interest, tax and depreciation of 54 billion rupees and net profit of 27 billion rupees."

"In the four years post-privatization, earnings fell to almost 11 billion rupees, a rate equivalent to a negative growth of 21 per cent per annum. Similarly, the profit margin (based on EBITDA or earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) declined from an average of 71 per cent over the four years prior to privatization to 50 per cent over the four years since privatization"

HBL, UBL : 51% shares of Habib Bank Limited (HBL) shares were sold to the the Aga Khan Fund for Economic Development (AKFED), a subsidiary of the Aga Khan Development Network, on January 4, 2004, for a bid of Rs 22.4 billion. This bid was allegedly less than the estimated worth of the total existing assets of the bank which are reported to have been around Rs 23.7 billion at that time. This does not include the value of more than 1400 branches inside Pakistan and branches in 26 other countries as well

United Bank Limited (UBL) 25.5% share was sold to a Consortium of Abu Dhabi Group (UAE) & Bestway Holdings Limited (UK) for Rs 12 billion (sometimes referred as 13 billion).

"MCB submitted the highest bid of Rs 8.5 billion. Others two submitted bids worth Rs 4.8 billion and Rs 4.5 billion respectively. Therefore, MCB emerged the highest bidder"

Rs 4.5 billion wass the original bid of the consortium to whom UBL was sold later. They were clearly not expecting a high bid from MCB as Shortcut had already promised them the sale. Then the media kicked in and then GoP was forced to accept its "wrongdoings" and corruption.

"State Bank of Pakistan cleared all the three bidders but suggested to the Privatization Commission to ask the participants to improve their bids. MCB was prompt in raising its bid from Rs 8.5 billion to Rs 12 billion and the revised bid was accepted by the Commission"

Later, "Abu Dhabi Consortium sent a fax indicating its intention to match MCB's revised bid" - Clear indication that a massive 8 billion rupees corruption was going to take place (from the original bid) while the final bid is also highly debated. You can sort through only archives and find dispassionate reviews on this.

Hence, the Privatization commenced by the Commando Govt was full of exposed corruption, shady deals and huge kickbacks. Don't claim that it somehow brought investment and these institutions were national burdens which somehow became profitable later on. The corruption does not mean that the money was siphoned by the general but clearly shows that the loot sale of SOEs resulted in the state loosing some of its most profitable enterprises, all under shady deals and huge kickbacks.

Macroeconomics is a complex subject. State economies aren't summarized by writing a six point agenda which is devoid of any logical argumentation, established theory, factual strength, figures and numbers. These simplifying economic stories are great for people who like to avoid uncertainty, ambiguity and contradictions but do not hold any established ground.

No further comments necessary.

 

[usama18]

It Should Go to the Energy Crisis side. Because the Energy Shortages Reaches upto 5000MW as PEPCO chairman say.