The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

[Always Neutral]

Shooting down an airplane along the IB, when the traditional thing to do would have been to turn it back or force it to land, is a different issue altogether, and as pointed out by those defense attaches, was out of line.

Dear AM,

There in lines the NEUTRAL ANS to this incident.

1. The plane a military intelligence aircraft has no business to be in that 10 km area when an agreement forbids that. Nearly all sources say that it may have even crossed the border. The truth will be known only the aircarft pilot or the Air Traffic controller who was guiding him but to be honest all military pilots have scant regards to such orders and always push the envelope to have some good gossip back in their messes.

2. The Indians should have force landed the aircraft and not shot it down a fact agreed by all DA's. However I think either they botched the operation or the MIG pilot panicked and shot it down.

I think both countries are to blame for this incident and hence no one took it to the International Courts.

Regards

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Yeah Nawaz sharif should come clear about figure of 4000 deaths and elimination of Nothern Infantry division.

NLI was an irregular unit before and during Kargil. After that episode was over, the NLI was made a regular regiment within the armed forces in recognition of their achievements and bravery (2 Nishan E Haiders). If they were destroyed, why would they be incorporated into a regular structure within the military? Obviously they fought well.

Pure garbage over here

 

[Goodperson]

Pure garbage over here

I only suggested NS should come clean on Garbage of his creation.

 

[Muradk]

Dear AM,

There in lines the NEUTRAL ANS to this incident.

1. The plane a military intelligence aircraft has no business to be in that 10 km area when an agreement forbids that. Nearly all sources say that it may have even crossed the border. The truth will be known only the aircarft pilot or the Air Traffic controller who was guiding him but to be honest all military pilots have scant regards to such orders and always push the envelope to have some good gossip back in their messes.

2. The Indians should have force landed the aircraft and not shot it down a fact agreed by all DA's. However I think either they botched the operation or the MIG pilot panicked and shot it down.

I think both countries are to blame for this incident and hence no one took it to the International Courts.

Regards

He did not panic I have heard the tape, Bastard was laughing before he took a shot. and why would he panic did he see 50 F-16 coming for him or what, the Indian pilot was lucky in a way the AT wasn't facing him or he would have blown out of the sky.
No only Pakistan is to be blamed when we have said that any flight near India Navy will use PAF Mirages, They think wearing white uniforms make them smarter wrong. Well what happend was bad, a few years later we did get a change to take that revenge IAF helicopter with the Interior Minister came across the loc, 2 cap fighters could have blown them to hell but PAF didn't. Not shooting it was a big slap on there face.
Yes both of our countries do this on a regular bases still they violate our air space when they see no one is close and we do the same but now the Navy uses Mirages.
Another problem is that the fisher boats from India are basically Intel guys any thing they see they report and that is how our AT got shot down. Now any boat crosses our line we arrest them.

 

[Goodperson]

Another problem is that the fisher boats from India are basically Intel guys any thing they see they report and that is how our AT got shot down. Now any boat crosses our line we arrest them.

Please leave poor fishermen out, fishermen from both countries get similar treatment.

 

[Muradk]

Why would a fisher boat carry full tactical weapons and the RT unit they are using is 10 times expensive that the boat. HUMM ??

 

[Goodperson]

Why would a fisher boat carry full tactical weapons and the RT unit they are using is 10 times expensive that the boat. HUMM ??

never heard about that,

here are some more details and questions from Shooting the Atlantique

D. Suba Chandran
Research Officer, IPCS

An Indian Air Force MiG 21 shot down a Pakistani surveillance aircraft Breguet Atlantique on 10th August, killing all 16 Pakistan personnel on board, for intruding 10 km into Indian territory in the Kori Creek region in Gujarat.
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According to the Indian version, the MiG 21s tried to force the Atlantique to land in India, but the "intruder aircraft turned in towards the MiG 21 in an attack position".According to Pakistan, the Atlantique was unarmed and in a routine training within its territorial limits when it was shot, without any warning, For Pakistan, the fact that the Atlantique was unarmed and the crew consisted of five officers and 11other ranks, most of them trainees and the debris of the plane and all the bodies were found inside Pakistan would seem to support this point.
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Pakistan's version cannot, however be accepted. The Atlantique is proven to be an anti-submarine cum anti-ship maritime surveillance aircraft, capable of delivering Exocet AM 39 missiles that can attack vessels from a distance of 100 km. It also carries nine MK 44 torpedoes, 4 air to surface missiles, 12 depth charges and 14 bombs.
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Secondly, if it was on a routine training mission, why was it flying so close to the international border? Article 2 of the Agreement between Pakistan and India on Prevention of Air space violations, states "Combat aircraft (to include fighter, bomber, reconnaissance, jet military trainer and armed helicopter aircraft) will not fly within 10 kms of each other's airspace". Whether the Atlantique was armed or not it is irrelevant since it is a reconnaissance aircraft and is covered well within the scope of this Article.
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This controversy apart, did the shooting serve India any purpose?
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At the international level, this incident has lowered India's moral stature acquired for its restraint in Kargil. The US, for example criticised that the "shoot down is a whole more serious level of action, inconsistent with the (1991) agreement". The fact that all 16 bodies and most of the wreckage fell within the Pakistani territory, has raised many questions. It is true that the altitude, direction and speed of the Atlantique may have ensured its falling on the Pakistani side, but India's display of a part of the wreckage in New Delhi did it no good. With India not prepared for dialogue and Pakistan continuously calling for it, this incident is bound to increase the international pressure upon India.
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Further, by shooting down the Atlantique, India has helped Nawaz Sharif and his government. There was severe criticism within Pakistan over the way Nawaz Sharif handled the Kargil episode. When the press and the opposition was questioning Sharif's Kargil policy, one missile from the MiG 21 has changed the scenario in Sharif's favour. He cleverly turned the burial ceremony of the Atlantique crew into his advantage. The shooting converted the intruders into martyrs!
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Certain questions have to be answered. India had every right to shoot down an enemy plane that intrudes within its territory. Why was this option not used during the previous eight intrusions during May and July? Why was the matter not taken up at the Headquarters level? According to Article 1 of the 1991 agreement "if any inadvertent violation does take place, the incident will be promptly investigated and the Headquarters (HQ) of the other Air Force informed of the results without delay, through diplomatic channels". Were any investigations of the earlier violations and reported through diplomatic channels?
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Before firing the missile, was there any radio contact between the MiG 21 and the Atlantique? Explaining the events, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tipnis said "as the MiGs moved to jockey into position to order the Pakistani aircraft to follow them, the Atlantique turned northwards towards them with the nose pointed towards Pakistan…(which) was a hostile act as it should have continued flying on the same path and lowered its undercarriage to indicate it had no hostile intentions". But he also did not rule out that the Atlantique was trying to return to Pakistan. Did we exhaust all the alternative options before firing?
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The shooting of the Atlantique has done no good to India butit would improve the prospects of the Bharatiya Janata Party in the coming elections.

 

[Always Neutral]

the Indian pilot was lucky in a way the AT wasn't facing him or he would have blown out of the sky.
.

Dear Muradk,

Thank you for the insight. Are you implying from the above statement that AT has air to air missiles ?

Regards

 

[Muradk]

Dear Muradk,

Thank you for the insight. Are you implying from the above statement that AT has air to air missiles ?

Regards

Sorry I just allergic to bullshit. The Indian version of AT is a total lie, Sorry to say this but this forum has couple of members who know more than others as to confidential reports.
The IAF pilot didn't ask them to land nor did he force them, The Mig never came next to the AT, When Pakistani knew they changed to the frequency so both can talk. The India pilot only said I got you while laughing.

And friend yes AT do carry Missiles 2 on each wing and 2 under the fuselage. Normally the 2 under the fuselage are for Subs. I think there are photos on our forum showing AT carrying missiles. if you cant find let me know I might have 1 or 2.
After attending Red Flag as a guest when I was doing a course I found out that is it a childs play to change coordinates from a sat from above, so the Indian can show 100 photos from the above saying the AT was inside India 20 or 30 miles we all know the true story.

 

[BATMAN]

IAF helicopter with the Interior Minister came across the loc, 2 cap fighters could have blown them to hell but PAF didn't. Not shooting it was a big slap on there face.

With due respect Sir, I don't think friendly gestures may have any impact on Indians.
They are creatures from distant world. The laughing guy whom you heard may be the best of indian breed. Imagine how mean a comon indian would be!
I would say forgiving an indian culprit is a conduct of gross injustice.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Sorry I just allergic to bullshit. The Indian version of AT is a total lie, Sorry to say this but this forum has couple of members who know more than others as to confidential reports.
The IAF pilot didn't ask them to land nor did he force them, The Mig never came next to the AT, When Pakistani knew they changed to the frequency so both can talk. The India pilot only said I got you while laughing.

And friend yes AT do carry Missiles 2 on each wing and 2 under the fuselage. Normally the 2 under the fuselage are for Subs. I think there are photos on our forum showing AT carrying missiles. if you cant find let me know I might have 1 or 2.
After attending Red Flag as a guest when I was doing a course I found out that is it a childs play to change coordinates from a sat from above, so the Indian can show 100 photos from the above saying the AT was inside India 20 or 30 miles we all know the true story.

It's stories such as these that keep our nuclear reactors warm at night.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In this incidence---pak navy was totally at fault. Their actions----just to allow the flight of that plane so close to the border reeked of arrogance, ignorance, a total disregard of the of the threat from IAF and a complete failure to understand and comprehend the threat level to the safety of the airplane and its occupants.

Secondly----the atlantique on its own was living in a dream world----it should never have allowed a fighter to get so close to it to take up a shot. It should have buggered out of the area at the first sign of threat and flown inwards staright away from the boundary line screaming murder.

Bottomline----poor training---poor judgement---poor understanding of the threat level at the boundry line----lack of vigilance in acknowledging the presence of the enemy in due time and taking evasive measures ahead of time---in the end a total disregard of understanding the anger of IAF at the loss of its fighter aircrafts at Kargil.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

You know what happened to the EP3 above China... Normal rule is to guide enemy back. Everywhere. Only lunatics in India are trigger happy... Shame. That plane was attacked from below by IR... Close range. I call that idiots. You might have a different idea but you might wanna analyse pics.

The only lunatics are the Chinese who get themselves bumped on to such a big plane.. Oh common what kind of freakin stunt was the pilot trying to show..


Aww here we go again .. "ANALYSE THIS AND ANALYSE THAT" Pakistan has not come out with conclusive proof with anything ....

What kind of pathetic question is this? I hope you understand what a class was doing with avionics and navigation... Man, I am wasting my time with this moron. Ever wonder why a big group was inside a atlantique? The needed lots of eyes? You do know how big the swam was? And you do know that the parts fell into Pakistan and Indians stole parts just to show? You guys are the worst kind of people.

You do resort to personel attacks don't you .. chickening out when you can't proceeed eh.. Like the AESA argument..

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

those who still dont believe joke-india 04 was rigged are being delusional and are living in fool of paradise.

23 March , has unemployment become rampant in your nation.. Don't people have any other job.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

I didn't compare Kargil with Atlantique, you did, and I did not say that Kargil was 'only an adventure'. One must remember that India did something similar to Kargil in Siachen as well, there has been a history of military conflicts in the disputed region of Kashmir initiated by both sides.

Shooting down an airplane along the IB, when the traditional thing to do would have been to turn it back or force it to land, is a different issue altogether, and as pointed out by those defense attaches, was out of line.

I really don't understand your logic of justifying anything that suits you. Wars happen due to multifarious reasons and gain, what matters is who won and who lost.

If Atlantique incident was something of a show of brutal strength then so be it, whats there to prowl over the issue an justify or to debunk others claim. What matters for India in a larger spectrum is how you could do nothing over it, how you were handicapped to take actions into your own rather then run to ICJ. This is what matters to us, It dosen't matter when Hon Murdak or X-Man talk about beating us or taking revenge, what matters is "What stops you from doing so?" .Winning is not always about equipment, bravado or technology . There are so many ways you can win without even fighting a full war. Atlanique or the subsequent bullying of Pakistan by India(something you guys claim) and the inability of you to stand up shows where the winning side is..

So much for Bravado and jingoism fro both sides...

PS The second paragraph was more rhetorical and general rather then particulaty pointing you

IPF