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Release of Yom Kippur War transcripts opens old wounds

By Eli Ashkenazi
01:49 08.10.10

Avi Ginosar stood yesterday near the Golan Heights monument to Brigade 769 and described the battles he fought during the Yom Kippur War.

"I still see everything before my eyes - the burned tanks, the battles of armor against armor," he said at the 35th annual memorial ceremony for the 72 brigade members killed in the war and since then. "I still hear the reports on the radio. That is when I understood that if we do not stop the Syrians here, then the Egyptians will stop them in Tel Aviv."

Ginosar - who, like his fellow brigade members, remained on reserve duty for seven months after the war - said the transcripts of meetings held by Israel's war cabinet during the first four days of the war, which the state archives released this week, "told me nothing new."

"After all, Hofi had warned that war was about to break out and no one listened," said Ginosar, referring to Yitzhak Hofi, who was in charge of Northern Command at the time. The transcripts confirmed the existence of an intelligence source who provided credible information of an imminent attack.

"I have in me anger that has not subsided to this day," said Ginosar.

Orri Orrr, who commanded the brigade during the war, also said the transcripts weren't that revealing.

"There is nothing new in the documents published," said . "But old news can open up old wounds. There are scars that seem to have healed but are opened anew. We won the battle at a heavy price. There are things that can stay with you for 37 years."

Speaking at the memorial ceremony, Orr said "we must continue to believe and remain determined, but at the same time we must criticize and examine the system every single day."

In addition to brigade members like Ginosar and Orr, dozens of members' families and the relatives of soldiers killed in the war attended the ceremony.

Rita Gershon stood before the memorial with tears running down her face, looking at her brother's name carved in metal.

"The pain that I have felt since his death does not subside, and neither does the anger over the mistakes made then," she said. "Now, in view of the publication of the transcripts of the government meetings in those days, I am even more angry. I understand how ill-prepared we were and how arrogant."

"The pain has been choking me for 37 years now," said Hava Yemini-Polani, whose brother Mordechai was killed in combat on the Golan Heights. "We learned of the failures after the war, but now the anger is greater than ever. Unfortunately, over many years they tried to keep many things quiet."

For some survivors of the 1973 war, just seeing the families of those who didn't make it can bring back harrowing memories.

"Every year it is hard," said brigade member Zohar Yair. "Nineteen men died in my tank. I took the dead out and took on a new crew each time. It is painful to see the bereaved families."

Release of Yom Kippur War transcripts opens old wounds - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
 
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Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War
Nothing has changed in 37 years. Israel has the same arrogant hubris and the same obstinate resistance to any prospect of a peace agreement.


By Gideon Levy
02:12 07.10.10

The act of atonement in which we are engaged over the recently declassified documents from the Yom Kippur War is nothing but a hollow pagan ritual. Suddenly we learn that Golda Meir considered ordering an "insane" operation against Syria and said the world was "contemptible;" defense minister Moshe Dayan called for abandoning wounded soldiers in the field and was thoroughly depressed; and Israel Defense Forces chief of staff David Elazar tended to lie to the public.

We love to indulge in discussing the blunders of 1973, imagining that they belong to the ancient past. All the responsible parties are dead, but the topic is still alive and kicking. The winds of 1973 blow hard today, and nothing has changed. The fact is that today, when each of Golda's pronouncements and Dayan's proposals are headlines once again, nobody remembers another error from this period, a much more critical mistake, by the same gang, made when it squandered the opportunity, in the early 1970s, of reaching an agreement with Egypt. Had a real lesson been learned from the Yom Kippur War, the scandal would have been attributed to this missed chance for negotiations - the same error that is being made today.

In the early 1970s, there was a genuine prospect for peace with Egypt. President Gamal Abdel Nasser agreed to the Rogers Plan, to which all subsequent peace proposals bear a striking resemblance, and even invited World Jewish Congress head Nahum Goldmann to confer with him. Golda blocked the meeting and ridiculed the idea, and Dayan declared, "Better to have Sharm el-Sheikh without peace." The rest is history: Israel always prefers war to peace, and if there is no choice then we'll make peace after a war, never before. Peace with Egypt, the withdrawal from south Lebanon and recognition of the Palestine Liberation Organization, all took place only after blood was shed, never before.

Nothing has changed in 37 years. It's the same arrogant hubris, the same obstinate resistance to any prospect of an agreement, the same failure to recognize that only peace will save us from another defense minister who sinks into an existential depression while warning of an impending holocaust. What's the point of this festival of 1973 war documents and this retroactive dance of death? Why look back, if on the day the settlement building freeze ended the settlers did a remarkably accurate imitation of the dance of arrogance that preceded the 1973 war?

There is no difference between the Plymouth Valiants driven by the lords of Israel in those days, the generals who went to Tel Aviv restaurants where their photographs decorated the walls, and today's torpor. The same drunken blindness is at play, even if the cult of the generals has since been curbed. Nasser sought peace in the early 1970s, and Bashar Assad, Mahmoud Abbas and the Arab League are knocking in vain at Israel's closed door in 2010. We mocked and turned a deaf ear then; we mock and turn a deaf ear now. We have examined photographs from parties in those power-drunk days and failed to find a hint of sobriety, or even a hangover, today. Look at us then and see us today. The fun and games continue, and the state shouts for joy, now as then.

Clip and save the bread and circuses: National Infrastructure Minister Uzi Landau promising power stations on the occupied Golan Heights and Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz promising a railroad on the occupied West Bank, just as Dayan and Shimon Peres promised a "deep-water harbor" at Yamit. It's the same story - the jubilation over natural gas discoveries, the roars of joy over the bulldozers in the settlements, the blunt indifference to world opinion, the apathy to the ills of the occupation, the obsession with trivialities, the gossip columns that bow to the rich and powerful, the small screen that keeps us from knowing what is really happening and the smokescreen of complacency that shrouds it all. Clip and save, and when the next scandal over a failure of leadership arises, in much less than 37 years, once again we won't be able to pretend to be shocked and surprised.

Take the Home Front Command public service message in which a cute soldier tells actress Tiki Dayan not to hurry, she can continue to fry her schnitzels. Listen to the soldier, in her voice: Keep pounding those chicken cutlets, thin, just the way we like, there's nothing urgent.

Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
 
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Nothing has changed since the Yom Kippur War
* Before Yom Kippur Israel asked for direct negotiations, while Egypt asked preconditions.
* After Yom Kippur Egypt agreed on talks without preconditions and peace was signed.
* Today Israel wants direct talks without preconditions with Syria and Palestinians, but Syrians and Palestinians have preconditions...
 
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Before Yom Kippur Israel asked for direct negotiations, while Egypt asked preconditions.
Read this post..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1108504-post56.html

Sadat's initiative is also confirmed by the US national archive, and declassified Israeli documents.

After Yom Kippur Egypt agreed on talks without preconditions and peace was signed.
Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai, years before any negotiations.

Today Israel wants direct talks without preconditions with Syria and Palestinians, but Syrians and Palestinians have preconditions...
Israel officially annexed Golan and Jerusalem, expanding settlements, and publicly announced that no return to pre 1967 borders, closing all doors to peace in the region.
 
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barlevlinewithprisoners.jpg


Two IDF soldiers taken prisoners, behind them a disabled M60 tank near one of Bar-Lev line strongholds.
 
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Read this post..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1108504-post56.html

Sadat's initiative is also confirmed by the US national archive, and declassified Israeli documents.
Their initiative did not include direct negotiations without preconditions.

Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai, years before any negotiations.
During the war Egypt took 1200 km2 in Sinai but lost 1600 km2 in Africa.

Israel officially annexed Golan and Jerusalem, expanding settlements, and publicly announced that no return to pre 1967 borders, closing all doors to peace in the region.
Israel agrees on direct negotiations, Syria refuses.
 
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Their initiative did not include direct negotiations without preconditions.
It did certainly include direct talks between Egypt and Israel without any immediate withdrawal.
US rejected Egypt sovereign rights over Sinai. Kissinger warned Sadat against attempting military actions; saying that even US wouldn't be able to speak with Israel.

Read Egypt's struggle for peace by Yoram Meital, and the Heroic Diplomacy by Kenneth W.Stein.

During the war Egypt took 1200 km2 in Sinai but lost 1600 km2 in Africa.
Straw man argument?!! :undecided:
You said that after the war, Egypt agreed on direct talks without preconditions, I say that Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai before any negotiations. FACT

Israel agrees on direct negotiations, Syria refuses.
Israel officially annexed Golan, that's even worse than any preconditions.
 
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It did certainly include direct talks between Egypt and Israel without any immediate withdrawal.
US rejected Egypt sovereign rights over Sinai. Kissinger warned Sadat against attempting military actions; saying that even US wouldn't be able to speak with Israel.

Read Egypt's struggle for peace by Yoram Meital, and the Heroic Diplomacy by Kenneth W.Stein.
What should I read, and how it will change anything.

Straw man argument?!! :undecided:
You said that after the war, Egypt agreed on direct talks without preconditions, I say that Egypt took more than 10,000 km square in Sinai before any negotiations. FACT
yomkippurwarmapitsvgcop.gif


Red - territory, captured by Egypt - 1200 km2
Green - territory, captured by Israel - 1600 km2

Thats fact.

Israel officially annexed Golan, that's even worse than any preconditions.
So what? Syria was asking preconditions even before the anexation in 1980. Actually itrs not even annexation but extention of laws.
 
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The Arabs - Egypt in particular - achieved a great political and Strategic victory out of the war.
Militarily, the result was stalemate on both fronts, although the Egyptian army achieved its objective, liberated the east bank of the Suez Canal, and did ultimately succeed in forcing the Israelis back to negotiation table.



Palestine problem is still unresolved and Gaza is under seige by both Israel and Egypt .
 
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What should I read, and how it will change anything.
You will find out that most Israeli historians and politicians blame the Israeli government for the failure of Sadat's peace initiatives.

Shlomo Ben-Ami says in the Scars of War, p. 135: "In the winter of 1971, Israel was clearly responsible, and Golda Meir must take the principal part of the blame, for the subversion of a unique opportunity for peace. The rejection of his overture signalled for Sadat the beginning of the countdown to war."

Isn't it ironical that you are the only one who are blaming Sadat?

yomkippurwarmapitsvgcop.gif


Red - territory, captured by Egypt - 1200 km2
Green - territory, captured by Israel - 1600 km2

Thats fact.
The source of your map is the Israeli MFA website. That's fun!

Here are UNEF II maps..

unef2polacy.jpg


IDF retreated behind that black dashed line (Line K) and behind (Line M) in the south, before any negotiations between Egypt and Israel.

So what? Syria was asking preconditions even before the anexation in 1980. Actually itrs not even annexation but extention of laws.
Israel constructed settlements in Golan after 1967, it was virtually annexed even before 1980.
 
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egyptiansoldierswithcar.jpg


Egyptian soldiers on the east bank. Notice the carts. Pulled by two men, these transports greatly assisted in the movement of weapons and matériel on the east bank, while no vehicles had yet crossed.
 
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