The quest of the ultra religious right and liberal left to destroy Pakistan

[Verve]

There are countless fissures among Muslim Ummah. We have killed each other, stabbed each other in back and helped kufaar against each other. These are facts and I am not denying them.

However, wrongdoings of some cannot be attributed to whole community. There were wrong doers among us and there were those who never left the straight path. There were traitors among us and there were those who always stood up against oppressors. Act of some individuals or a percentage of them can not be attributed to whole community. If this community is dead then please tell me why is Quran stating in explicit terms that:

Thus We have made you a medium (just, balanced) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind and the Messenger be a witness over you.

Surah e Baqarah 143

How can dead be witness on other nations?

Who is talking about dead being witness?

However, those (now dead) who started a bidaat and/or a wrongful act will not only bear the sins of their individual acts but also of those followed them in those bidaats and/or wrongful acts!

Nations get the leaders they deserve. Just have a look at the muslim world leadership and the tribal divisions.

Fissures are not only countless but terrible in extent that only a catastrophic event(s) could unite the Ummah. We have to fix our house, Pakistan, first and foremost. It is pointless talking of Ummah until we are strong enough to bring about a positive change. Again, peacemaker role at most.

I hope that after the bloodshed of Pakistanis from the final war with Hindutva India, Pakistanis will learn some valuable lessons and we as a nation will start on the right path. Do away from these cursed sects mullahs and liberals to unite as one.

Pakistan and uniting Pakistanis should be our priority! Ummah for immediate term is us Pakistanis!! For the rest, all we can and should do is raise our voice and that is it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What is the common thing among Baltis of Baltistan and Muhajirs of Karachi. How can they be part of a single nation?

Insofar as -

• African Negroes of Alabama, German migrants in Ohio, Red India tribes in New Mexico, Hispanics in Los Angelese, Italians in New York to Amish Swedes in the Praire with dozen other colours and ethnic following dozen faiths, some no faith all be part of one single nation called America.
• 
  
• Turkish Anatolians, Circassians, Bulgar Turks, Kosawar Muslims, Kurdish Iranics, Arabs be one nation called Turkey.
• 
  
• Tibeto-Ladakhi Bhuddists, Punjabi Sikhs, Muslim Biharis, Bengalis, Dravidian Tamils, Malaylams, Keralites, Christian Nagalanders, Hindu Marathas etc be single nation called India.
• 
  
• English, Scots, Welsh, Ulster Irish, mohajir Indians [British Home Secretary Priti Patel is Indian Mohajir], Pakistani's [London mayor Sadiq is of Pakistani extraction, Black Jamaicans [the boxer Joshua] and dozens of others all be single British nation?

NEWSFLASH. Very few countries on earth are single ethnic, single religion countries. Very few.

 

[Imran Khan]

خدا کی قسم ہم لبرلز تو بس بدنام ہیں ۔ ملا ڈیزل 4 سال میں 44 لاکھ کی سرکاری لسی پی گیا ۔ ہم نے تو 40 سال میں 44 لاکھ کی شراب نہیں پی ہو گی ۔مہربانی کر کے ہمیں رائٹ ونگ سے نا ملایا جائے ہم جتنے بھی برے ہیں اتنے برے نہیں ۔

 

[EasyNow]

You have any argument to support your claim? By the way, who are these Mullahs? Please define them for clarity.



Again, who are these religious loonies? Please be specific.



Please define Pakistani Nation. How is Pakistan a nation? What is the common thing among Baltis of Baltistan and Muhajirs of Karachi. How can they be part of a single nation?

Secondly, self determination for whom? Some Pashtoons, Sindhis and Balochs are also demanding right of self determination from Pakistan based on their nationality.



You are wrong. Every Pakistani is not equal in the eyes of Law. A Non Muslim can not become PM and President of this state. Pakistan's constitution is quite categorical about this issue.

If every Pakistani is equal in the eyes of law than why non Muslims have not been granted the right to become President and PM of Pakistan?

What makes Pakistan or any country a nation is shared history, shared resources, shared languages and shared defence. Every country in the world has diverse groups within it but they get along for the benefit of a secure state.

You are clearly hinting at Islam being the uniting factor in Pakistan - but that is a patently false notion. In fact, religion and statehood cannot co exist without compromising one or the other.If any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims - its a simple test

 

[niaz]

Mullahs and the extreme right-wing of the society were against the partition. Anyone who disagrees should read speeches/articles by Maulana Maudoodi, Maulana Hasan Madani, and Majlis-e Ahrar. Our Founding Fathers were 'Liberal' Muslims but not Communists or 'Ultra leftist. All we need to do is to follow Quaid,s speech of August 11, 1947, in practice.

P.S. People who formed the Communist Party of Pakistan in 1948 were Syed Sajjad Zaheer (The writer) and Syed Abul Mansoor Zaheer Habibullah from Bengal.

 

[Verve]

You are clearly hinting at Islam being the uniting factor in Pakistan - but that is a patently false notion. In fact, religion and statehood cannot co exist without compromising one or the other.If any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims - its a simple test

hahaha .. now a bengali will tell us the uniting factor in Pakistan is not Islam! You tribal people tagged along with muslim majority independent country movement only to be not ruled by a Hindu majority India!

Deen and State have existed in perfect harmony and our beloved Prophet (PBUH) established this state that changed the world to follow.

Mazhabs (sects) and state will have issues and this is the primary reason why all the so called Islamic states have not been successful.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Peace.

As you believe so strongly in the "Ummah", I want to ask you one question. What are you going to do or what do you propose to do when the King of Saudi Arabia floods the holy cities of Mekkah and Medina with indian hindus and sikhs? The same indian hindus and sikhs who vehemently believe in the eradication of Islam. What is the Ummah taskforce going to do about it?:

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

As you believe so strongly in the "Ummah", I want to ask you one question. What are you going to do or do you propose gets done when the King of Saudi Arabia floods the holy cities of Mekkah and Medina with indian hindus and sikhs? The same indian hindus and sikhs who vehemently believe in the destruction and eradication of Islam. What is the Ummah taskforce going to do about it?:


View attachment 699022

I give you one thing you posted the correct image. Pakistan going Saudi way or recognizing Israel to encircle Iran or becoming Indian lackey is all par for the course, joining Saudi led camp... by doing so, they'll dangle the carrots again, fuel available on differed payments perhaps even help in balance of payment and/or trade deficit.
But, by doing so, Pakistan also does what is demanded... leave the Chinese camp, abandon CPEC, forget regional integration i.e. hard borders and finally play the role of spoiler in Iran.
A new world order is taking shape, a new set of either you're with us or against us. As you can see there is no third world anymore, no impartiality. U.S. and China are joined at the hip... a two headed monster but not interchangeable.
Pakistan is way too invested in Chinese camp at this poing to extract itself, besides what's the prize, same old same old as the pecking order is already laid out. On the other hand Chinese side is more rewarding though more dangerous as it will inevitably take Pakistan out of it's former alliances that may go hostile.
Saudi's have no recourse they have a very obvious path, coalition against Iran for a final showdown and a future market in India for their crude. Essentially, India pays for a war against Iran and Israel takes front seat while they sit back and realx.
For those who think things are moving too slow, guess what they've never been this swift. No wonder then that so much groundwork has already been laid basically everything a Biden administration would need... even force it's hand!
A tone and a clear direction has been set in motion before this administration changes hands.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I give you one thing yoi posted the correct image. Pakistan going Saudi way or recognizing Israel to encircle Iran or becoming Indian lackey is all par for the course, joining Saudi led camp... by doing so, they'll dangle the carrots again, fuel available on differed payments perhaps even help in balance of payment and/or trade deficit.
But, by doing so, Pakistan also does what is demanded... leave the Chinese camp, abandon CPEC, forget regional integration i.e. hard borders and finally play the role of spoiler in Iran.
A new world order is taking shape, a new set of either you're with us or against us. As you can see there is no third world anymore, no impartiality. U.S. and China are joined at the hip... a two headed monster but not interchangeable.
Pakistan is way too invested in Chinese camp at this poing to extract itself, besides what's the prize, same old same old as the pecking order is already laid out. On the other hand Chinese side is more rewarding though more dangerous as it will inevitably take Pakistan out of it's former alliances that may go hostile.
Saudi's have no recourse they have a very obvious path, coalition against Iran for a final showdown and a future market in India for their crude. Essentially, India pays for a war against Iran and Israel takes front seat while they sit back and realx.
For those who think things are moving too slow, guess what they've never been this swift. No wonder then that so much groundwork has already been laid basically everything a Biden administration would need... even force it's hand!
A tone and a clear direction has been set in motion before this administration changes hands.

You have given an excellent reason as to why Pakistan shouldn't recognize Israel and I totally agree with you wholeheartedly.

OFF TOPIC But I believe that soon the Palestinians will fully recognize Israel and submit to all their demands. In the next 10 to 20 years, whatever is left of Palestine will cease to exist. Unfortunately it's game over for them.

 

[Verve]

There is no restriction and I can claim with full responsibility that same is the view of majority Muslims.

If there are no restriction, why were there 4 masallay in Masjid Al-Haram (they thought back then that this was ijema!)?? Ironically, not a single one chose Muqam-e-Ibrahim(AS)!

Which majority specifically are you referring to? A majority that belongs to a sect or sects or do you actually mean the really small minority that does not believe in any sects whatsoever?

OFF TOPIC But I believe that soon the Palestinians will fully recognize Israel and submit to all their demands. In the next 10 to 20 years, whatever is left of Palestine will cease to exist. Unfortunately it's game over for them.

It's game over for majority of the arab nations.

 

[Mutakalim]

Who is talking about dead being witness?

You were saying that Ummah is dead. So how it can become witness?

However, those (now dead) who started a bidaat and/or a wrongful act will not only bear the sins of their individual acts but also of those followed them in those bidaats and/or wrongful acts!

What does this mean? Does this means that all 1.6 billion Muslims are sinful? I must say its a big leap of imagination, to declare whole of the Muslim world as sinful due to wrongdoings of few.

If we assume that your assertion is correct, still it doesn't negate the concept of Ummah, as established by Quran. As it only makes them sinful, not Kafir.

Fissures are not only countless but terrible in extent that only a catastrophic event(s) could unite the Ummah. We have to fix our house, Pakistan, first and foremost. It is pointless talking of Ummah until we are strong enough to bring about a positive change. Again, peacemaker role at most.

I agree that only catastrophic event can unite us, nothing else. I also agree with your other points. However, fixing our home does not means that we should concede to oppressors and start singing songs of their glory. Fixing home does not means that we should accept Israel like other traitors and help in their oppression. This will be ethically and morally wrong. It will also not give us any strategic benefit and will prove to be a political suicide for any government.

I dont know how our strategic outlook and threat perception can change after conceding concept of Ummah.

Insofar as -

• African Negroes of Alabama, German migrants in Ohio, Red India tribes in New Mexico, Hispanics in Los Angelese, Italians in New York to Amish Swedes in the Praire with dozen other colours and ethnic following dozen faiths, some no faith all be part of one single nation called America.
• 
  
• Turkish Anatolians, Circassians, Bulgar Turks, Kosawar Muslims, Kurdish Iranics, Arabs be one nation called Turkey.
• 
  
• Tibeto-Ladakhi Bhuddists, Punjabi Sikhs, Muslim Biharis, Bengalis, Dravidian Tamils, Malaylams, Keralites, Christian Nagalanders, Hindu Marathas etc be single nation called India.
• 
  
• English, Scots, Welsh, Ulster Irish, mohajir Indians [British Home Secretary Priti Patel is Indian Mohajir], Pakistani's [London mayor Sadiq is of Pakistani extraction, Black Jamaicans [the boxer Joshua] and dozens of others all be single British nation?

NEWSFLASH. Very few countries on earth are single ethnic, single religion countries. Very few.

Excellent! Now please enlighten me why 12-15 people left their ancestral home, their properties, their businesses and migrated to Pakistan? Why these people sacrificed their loved ones?

 

[Mutakalim]

What makes Pakistan or any country a nation is shared history, shared resources, shared languages and shared defence. Every country in the world has diverse groups within it but they get along for the benefit of a secure state.

Baltis and Muhajirs dont have similar history, they also dont speak similar languages and also didn't shared any resources before partition. They belong to different races. Baltis have more in common with Uighurs of China than with Balochs of Pakistan.

They only share a common defence and that is due to their acceptance of Muslim nationhood. Shared defence is not the reason, it's the result.

Baloch, Pashtoon and Sindhi nationalist are not ready to accept benefit of a secure state with Punjabis.

In fact, religion and statehood cannot co exist without compromising one or the other.

Maybe, according to Christian experience.

If any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims - its a simple test

The visa regime is just for management and security purposes. Nonetheless, millions of Afghans are living in Pakistan, without visa.

 

[Mutakalim]

Mullahs and the extreme right-wing of the society were against the partition. Anyone who disagrees should read speeches/articles by Maulana Maudoodi, Maulana Hasan Madani, and Majlis-e Ahrar.

You are forgetting the role of Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, Jamaat Ali Shah, Pir of Manki Shareef and other like minded individuals. Claiming that all Mullahs were against partition is factually and logically absurd, to say the least.

Should I quote speeches of Muhammad Ali Jinnah and other Muslim league leaders who were acting like Mullahs and in some instances more right winged than Mullahs themselves. The whole narrative of Muhammad Ali Jinnah revolved around communal differences.

Our Founding Fathers were 'Liberal' Muslims but not Communists or 'Ultra leftist. All we need to do is to follow Quaid,s speech of August 11, 1947, in practice.

Our founding fathers adopted a narrative which was poles apart from western liberal thought. It is not that, Quaid only spoke on August 11, 1947, not before that and not after that. On countless occasions he presented the communal narrative of Muslim league.

Why should we follow a single speech and neglect the whole narrative of a personality?

What are you going to do or what do you propose to do when the King of Saudi Arabia floods the holy cities of Mekkah and Medina with indian hindus and sikhs? The same indian hindus and sikhs who vehemently believe in the eradication of Islam. What is the Ummah taskforce going to do about it?:

Jihad against infidels and their followers.

 

[Mutakalim]

If there are no restriction, why were there 4 masallay in Masjid Al-Haram (they thought back then that this was ijema!)?? Ironically, not a single one chose Muqam-e-Ibrahim(AS)!

Placing four Mussalas in Majid e Haram was not Ijma. I dont think anyone claimed that. This action of a regime and some individuals can not be acceptable, at all.

Which majority specifically are you referring to? A majority that belongs to a sect or sects or do you actually mean the really small minority that does not believe in any sects whatsoever?

I am referring to Sunni majority. They are being taught in their textbooks of theology that they can offer prayer behind anyone. It is the accepted and recognized principle of Sunni Islam. If large number of individuals are not highlighting this fact then its their fault.

 

[EasyNow]

hahaha .. now a bengali will tell us the uniting factor in Pakistan is not Islam! You tribal people tagged along with muslim majority independent country movement only to be not ruled by a Hindu majority India!

Deen and State have existed in perfect harmony and our beloved Prophet (PBUH) established this state that changed the world to follow.

Mazhabs (sects) and state will have issues and this is the primary reason why all the so called Islamic states have not been successful.

Deen and state have existed in perfect harmony? Nonsense- Just look at Pakistan's history for 1 decade before even mentioning the countless rebellions in Islamic history. Its arguable that military force kept you together more than Deen.

Today you can try to brush aside Bangladesh as a Hindu country because it's the proof against your false narrative - a majority Muslim region voted for an Islamic scholar who led them to secession from the Muslim state.

Abdul Hamid Khan Bhashani - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If Pakistan ever were to split again, it will be a mullah that does it. So don't defend Deen and state too strongly.

And no, mazhabs are not the reason for Islamic states not working. The rebellions existed long before that and I'm sure you know this.