The Pilot Factor

[Donatello]

I certainly doubt it..
If you are aware of the PG's performance in HM'10.. then you might be aware of what different kills were awarded to it and how.
The BVR training does not detract from the traditional WVR.. more so.. the introduction of high-agility and dual seeker IR missiles has the PAF revising its WVR tactics..
but lets not get carried away with this romance..
The PAF is now at a distinct disadvantage in equipment.. and the training is no longer going to make up for it.

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

Somehow I had a feeling that the jingoistic tone of this article would invite jingoism from the Opposite side as well.
apparently of the worst kind as well.. ,,,

Yes, but the fielding of AWACs and more JF-17s (Maybe j-10s) in the next 1 to 2 years will radically change that..

 

[SQ8]

Santro / notorious eagle,

would you gentlement please kindly shed some light on the high mark performance---I am not privy to the results. Thank you.

What can be said that is strictly not classified..
is that the PG demonstrated the ability to engage and defeat the F-16 repeatedly in WVR in 1vs1 and many vs many engagements, much to the chagrin of the F-16 pilots who considered themselves the best in the force. There is another aspect which I cannot state on an open forum.

Yes, but the fielding of AWACs and more JF-17s (Maybe j-10s) in the next 1 to 2 years will radically change that..

That is a very optimistic time table..
As I stated before.. the graph for the PAF is not rising as fast it is for the adversary..
And now there is another potential adversary who sits 30 to 40 years ahead of you in terms of combat doctrine..
a force that is responsible to quite an extent for the standards of excellence that the PAF has strived to maintain.

In other words folks..
The reason the PAF was as good as it was.. is as good as it is.. is due to the United States Air Force.
Like it or not..
We owe them a LOT to what we are today..
Those WWII vets.. with tons of expertise and knife edge combat doctrine's are what allowed the PAF to literally embarrass the IAF in 65.. despite making huge blunders.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I certainly doubt it..
If you are aware of the PG's performance in HM'10.. then you might be aware of what different kills were awarded to it and how.
The BVR training does not detract from the traditional WVR.. more so.. the introduction of high-agility and dual seeker IR missiles has the PAF revising its WVR tactics..
but lets not get carried away with this romance..
The PAF is now at a distinct disadvantage in equipment.. and the training is no longer going to make up for it.

---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------

Somehow I had a feeling that the jingoistic tone of this article would invite jingoism from the Opposite side as well.
apparently of the worst kind as well.. ,,,

Just about the last part of your post; is'nt that true? And the author certainly is no "Aeronaut" that will afford him some greater credibility. Apart from the fact that our Windy friend found something (that is supposedly) from 2002. Maybe he was looking for the historical section along with Cataphracts and the IVC. So Jingoism only begets Jingoism.

But Santro, many of your points make sense, though you and I have to use euphemisms sometimes.

 

[SQ8]

Just about the last part of your post; is'nt that true? And the author certainly is no "Aeronaut" that will afford him some greater credibility. Apart from the fact that our Windy friend found something (that is supposedly) from 2002. Maybe he was looking for the historical section along with Cataphracts and the IVC. So Jingoism only begets Jingoism.

But Santro, many of your points make sense, though you and I have to use euphemisms sometimes.

As I mentioned .. it was a jingoistic article with some half truths and correct speculation.
But that cant be helped.. tell me, how many of us who are not overtly emotionally charged and blinded by either "Jai Hind" or "Pakistan Zindabad" will sit down and write all of this.
Those that do write such and do it with unbiased focus are usually targets of scorn and accusations of traitorhood.

One person on this side was A/C Sajjad Haider.. whose book I recommend to all Indians who are interested in one of the most unbiased accounts of the wars between us.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

As I mentioned .. it was a jingoistic article with some half truths and correct speculation.
But that cant be helped.. tell me, how many of us who are not overtly emotionally charged and blinded by either "Jai Hind" or "Pakistan Zindabad" will sit down and write all of this.
Those that do write such and do it with unbiased focus are usually targets of scorn and accusations of traitorhood.

One person on this side was A/C Sajjad Haider.. whose book I recommend to all Indians who are interested in one of the most unbiased accounts of the wars between us.

Yes indeed, Air. Cmdre. Sajjad "Nosy" Haider's book is well recommended on the other side of the border as well, though I've not had a chance to read it. Personally, I also do like Air. Cmdre. Kaiser Tufail's analytical approach to air events. Its stuff like that will help at least lesser souls (like myself) to understand (at least some) of the intricacies of air warfare while being served with historical and other facts.

The Jingoes do no service (in spite of their fervent beliefs) to any body.

 

[Windjammer]

According to ?The International Institute for Strategic Studies? (IISS) 2002-2003 Oxford University Press PAF flying hours 210 (page134) and IAF flying hours 180+ (page 130)

Considering that until 2005 the PAF was under sanctions, yet maintained healthy flying hours....in due course it would have at least maintained a status quo if not exceeded on that figure.

 

[SQ8]

On TOPIC folks.

 

[cyphercide]

Besides the debatable assertions,I am surprised that not a word of acknowledgement or appreciation was credited to the USAF that had a prominent hand in making PAF the professional and well cut out unit they are today.

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro,

Thank you for yor answer-----F7PG have always been known to be extremely potent fighter aircraft. There has never been any doubt about that---a few of the problems of this aircraft is its short legs and its weapons list----.

 

[Sapper]

Besides the debatable assertions,I am surprised that not a word of acknowledgement or appreciation was credited to the USAF that had a prominent hand in making PAF the professional and well cut out unit they are today.

USAF and RAF had a great hand in PAF development, but PAF started deviating from USAF/RAF warfare scenarios during early and late 70's. PAF stuck to its GDP phillosophy, while USAF/RAF started believing in dedicated F14/F15 interceptors, dedicated ground support A10/F16, and dedicated B52/B1 bombers. consequently their training plans were no more suitable to be taught and referenced in PAF.

PAF stuck to its GDP (like Israel/France) in entire 80's and 90's and now in 2000's onward we see that every single modern fighter/bomber in every airforce in the world is opted to go back to Multi-Roles as a backbone, so basically GDP. Even the legacy systems like F15/F16/F18s were all converted to be fully multirole, not to mention that all the new designs Typhoon, Rafale, Grippen, F35, Su35, F22 have Multi-Role as their punch line, instead of interceptor/COIN/bomber that was once the mandatory punch line for every new fighter in the cold war.

Times have reversed. RAF only had 8 qualified pilots to be able to carry out bombing sorties with their Typhoons if they so desired to use them in Libya. Thats the state of their affairs, and now they are gettings only 80~100 flying hours on Typhoons per pilot. Thier training is going down the drain, even their trainers have become more expencive to operate than our fighters. Similar is the case with F22 pilots and same thing is worrying lots of USAF top brass while they consider inducting into their airforce the 180 million dollor white elephant named the F35. Now i am not denying that its more capable, but to sustain it for 30 years will force airforce to reduce its acquisition from 2400+ to something like 1800 (or less) in my opinion which will seriously undermine thier planned air dominance. With cost cutting, they will start reducing pilot hours, and the likes of seeing a pilot gaining 3000 hours on Viper under his belt will never be seen on an F35. Mind you there are 220+ USAF pilots with 3000+ hours on Viper, I dont ever see that beccoming a reality for F35.

USAF had been a great great help till they diverted from GDP philosophy, while PAF/IsraelAF stuck with it. Now everyone wants back in, but they will require too much time and effort, and lots and lots of money to regain back their multi purpose pilot doctrine.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[notorious_eagle]

Santro,

Thank you for yor answer-----F7PG have always been known to be extremely potent fighter aircraft. There has never been any doubt about that---a few of the problems of this aircraft is its short legs and its weapons list----.

Short Legs is a problem but its a minor one as the aircraft is primarily used for Air Defence Roles. The aircraft is very maintenance friendly, its turn around rate is much faster compared to the other aircrafts in our inventory and especially those that are present in our adversary's inventory. A higher pilot to aircraft ratio ensures that the aircraft can quickly be refuelled, turned around and launched with a new driver.

Its weapons list is actually larger than what has been published, its not only restricted to the AIM9 Lima . Best to keep the enemy guessing what weapons this aircraft can fire, not sure if i should reveal this capability on this forum but i am sure Santro would know what shots the PG took during HM 2010.

 

[Sapper]

Its weapons list is actually larger than what has been published, its not only restricted to the AIM9 Lima .

Will the papas be upgraded or retired ?

Regards,
Sapper

 

[cyphercide]

Thanks for clearing that up Sapper,

I was rather pointing to the holistic development of the PAF by western allies as compared to the IAF that was done by the Soviet side.By that I mean the whole package consisting maintenance of equipment and spares,aerial warfare doctrines,organization and structure of the force from the ground up etc. and not just training modules on fighters.Would you contend that the PAF is still the more "westernized" force amongst the two?

 

[Windjammer]

What difference did it really make? Pakistan lost face after that war and subsequently lost all wars after that, not to forget respect on the world stage. With all that chest thumping/bravado, what has Pakistan achieved till now? And dont talk about 'potential', no one sees any potential, they all see what you have achieved! We lost a a few battles, but won the wars!

You first post a ridiculous article and try to justify it as the 'real deal'? Its bullocks bandying the same myth of a martially superior race vs the 'weak plant eating Yindoos' - same rotten wine in a new labelled bottle!

This article does no justice to anything PAF. If you really want to discuss the merits and demerits of a particular battle - air, land or sea, it would do a great service to this forum. But it doesnt seem to be your agenda and your visceral hatred of anything India/Hindus comes out through the kind of threads you post and your opinions of various matters. You sir, are pathetic! I wonder if your desi tenants know of this 'side' of yours!

If any thing, it's your nonsensical rants which are both cheap and digressing. After your earlier post, you had the option to walk away but no you still felt the urge to smear the thread with your verbal diarrhoea . As i said earlier, the article was posted to me and i decided to share it... not my assertion and without any form of POV included, but you full of it are too ignorant to notice as such. Since you have proved your low down mentality to even go personal, well, I suggest you take your derelict soul to that zoo called BR, where you will feel right at home and save us from your BS.

 

[Windjammer]

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