The Outsider:Jaswant Singh & Gen.Musharrff on India-Pakistan Relations

[PakShah]

The first rule of identifying intellectuals is to see if they ever declared themselves one.
That usually stops the award brigade right there, Zaid Hamid and others ended up with the same problem.

On the topic.. notice how Musharraf stammers through the Kargil section.. lying is never convincing.
And he has to come up with arguments to defend it. Had he been a bigger man, he would admit his mistake and throw another hat in the ring for opponents to the peace hopes from the Indian side.
But then again, there are men.. and there are men.. Jaswant Singh is the latter.

Forget the Kargil escapade. People have moved on from Kargil, its sort of forgotten from the memory now. I think Musharraf should be barred from politics in Pakistan because of his mistakes. He made too many.

You are saying Musharraf is a liar? Well, Musharrad was never model leader for Pakistan anyways.

 

[Azazel]

Well as per the UN resolutions, Pakistan has to completely move its forces out of ***, India can keep some forces and then
a plebiscite would take place. I think we have never removed our forces from ***, so plebiscite is not possible.
If tomorrow we were to move our forces, India will be forced to go with a plebiscite.

Both India and Pakistan don't want any Plebiscite in their side of Kashmir.Because both are afraid this will inspire other separatist movements in their country.Only way to settle this issue is sit down and talk.Keep cultural and people to people contacts alive.If we can't solves this issue today,then leave it and wait for a better,wiser and mature leadership of tomorrow.Don't fight each other over this silly issue and destroy the future of our children.

 

[FarazUSA]

Both India and Pakistan don't want any Plebiscite in their side of Kashmir.Because both are afraid this will inspire other separatist movements in their country.Only way to settle this issue is sit down and talk.Keep cultural and people to people contacts alive.If we can't solves this issue today,then leave it and wait for a better,wiser and mature leadership of tomorrow.Don't fight each other over this silly issue and destroy the future of our children.

Well I am just saying that we do have an option for forcing India to go for a plebiscite.

 

[PakShah]

Both India and Pakistan don't want any Plebiscite in their side of Kashmir.Because both are afraid this will inspire other separatist movements in their country.Only way to settle this issue is sit down and talk.Keep cultural and people to people contacts alive.If we can't solves this issue today,then leave it and wait for a better,wiser and mature leadership of tomorrow.Don't fight each other over this silly issue and destroy the future of our children.

Pakistan is not afraid of doing a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Only India doesn't want to live up to what Nehru said about right of Kashmiris.

Sorry but your logic doesn't make any sense. Leave it for another generation?

We are the next generation after our parents, why leave it for another.

Lets solve it according to just and moral principles. Whats the right thing to do. Well obviously lets ask what the people want --> the Kashmiris.

 

[FarazUSA]

Pakistan is not afraid of doing a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Only India doesn't want to live up to what Nehru said about right of Kashmiris.

Sorry but your logic doesn't make any sense. Leave it for another generation?

We are the next generation after our parents, why leave it for another.

Lets solve it according to just and moral principles. Whats the right thing to do. Well obviously lets ask what the people want --> the Kashmiris.

We did make our case a little weak by supporting Militancy, even if done on a diplomatic level let's say.
The Kargil war specially, did a lot of harm to Kashmir issue for us. As I said above, the UN resolutions are impractical as the geography has changed as said once by Kofi Annan visiting Kashmir and also both countries have tons of other issues to
deal with, the Kashmir issue not being quite relevant.

 

[Azazel]

Well I am just saying that we do have an option for forcing India to go for a plebiscite.

No you don't.No one can force India to do a plebiscite.Especially not by a country like Pakistan.Not after all this years of supporting militancy in Kashmir.You lost most of the Kashmiris after that.Recent surveys showed mass majority of Kashmiris don't want to be a part of Pakistan.That's why Musharraf shut down training camps.

 

[FarazUSA]

No you don't.No one can force India to do a plebiscite.Especially not by a country like Pakistan.

Well India has to abide by UN resolutions if we make up our mind (which I doubt). Even China will be
forced to leave Aksai Chin if the plebiscite were to take place.

 

[Yaduveer]

pakistan and india(excluding MP) are like two enemies, stranded in similar situation, they are enemies but they still have common goal and have common enemy, that is the stranded situation because of these stinking bulldog brits, and the situation is our poverty and education and third world state

we cant just make bombs for billions of dollars will neglect our poverty and other issues

together we will survive, but fallen apart we both will be towards our own death

so i propose, lets be friends, become developed, open up trades, be honest, and when the right time comes, we would settle our scores then

so lets just shake hands for now

I totally agree with you, If India and Pakistan had not problem of Kashmir ab initio , Both India and Pakistan would have relationship like USA and Canada.

The money we had spent on guns bomb and missile could have been used to feed our hungry population.

Who knows both India and Pakistan would have been developed countries in the mean time.

We bought fighter planes and submarines from West, while making them more rich we continue to linger in poverty.

Conclusion: I think that west don't want that Kashmir to settle peacefully otherwise their defence factories would be shut down. We are paying the price for Kashmir dispute and that price has gone in the coffers of west.

 

[Azazel]

Well India has to abide by UN resolutions if we make up our mind (which I doubt). Even China will be
forced to leave Aksai Chin if the plebiscite were to take place.

That was a non binding resolution.It had no clause of mandatory enforceability.So no we don't have to abide this resolution.

 

[Azazel]

Pakistan is not afraid of doing a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Only India doesn't want to live up to what Nehru said about right of Kashmiris.

Sorry but your logic doesn't make any sense. Leave it for another generation?

We are the next generation after our parents, why leave it for another.

Lets solve it according to just and moral principles. Whats the right thing to do. Well obviously lets ask what the people want --> the Kashmiris.

Then go ahead and conduct it.Who's stopping you???
lets see what Kashmiris in Pak administered Kashmir wants???
I meant lets solve other outstanding issues first(which has a solution in sight,but can't be solved because of Kashmir first mentality).And wait for a much wiser future generation of leaders from both countries.That's the only logical solution I can see.

 

[Sashan]

I totally agree with you, If India and Pakistan had not problem of Kashmir ab initio , Both India and Pakistan would have relationship like USA and Canada.

The money we had spent on guns bomb and missile could have been used to feed our hungry population.

Who knows both India and Pakistan would have been developed countries in the mean time.

We bought fighter planes and submarines from West, while making them more rich we continue to linger in poverty.

Conclusion: I think that west don't want that Kashmir to settle peacefully otherwise their defence factories would be shut down. We are paying the price for Kashmir dispute and that price has gone in the coffers of west.

Lets not blame the west for what is happening with Kashmir. Kashmir is a self-inflicted pain by both India and Pakistan. Every generation for the past 65 years has been brought up with emotional BS and now, it is like holding a tiger's tail for both the Pakistani and Indian leaders.

Though there are members who are confident about a positive resolution, I am very sceptical about the resolution of Kashmir and the subsequent peace between India and Pakistan but I would be very glad to be proven wrong. Solving Kashmir issue would mean a political suicide for either one of the countries' leaders - Therefore none of the leaders will make a serious attempt.

 

[PakShah]

Then go ahead and conduct it.Who's stopping you???
lets see what Kashmiris in Pak administered Kashmir wants???
I meant lets solve other outstanding issues first(which has a solution in sight,but can't be solved because of Kashmir first mentality).And wait for a much wiser future generation of leaders from both countries.That's the only logical solution I can see.

India must do it at the same however.

Only one party cannot do it on his side.

It has to be balanced or fair.

Sorry but Kashmir is first. Anyone who says do anything else, is just holding the Kashmir issue hostage to other issues.

Lets not blame the west for what is happening with Kashmir. Kashmir is a self-inflicted pain by both India and Pakistan. Every generation for the past 65 years has been brought up with emotional BS and now, it is like holding a tiger's tail for both the Pakistani and Indian leaders.

Though there are members who are confident about a positive resolution, I am very sceptical about the resolution of Kashmir and the subsequent peace between India and Pakistan but I would be very glad to be proven wrong. Solving Kashmir issue would mean a political suicide for either one of the countries' leaders - Therefore none of the leaders will make a serious attempt.

I disagree with the political suicide. Just solve the Kashmir dispute according to just and moral principles.

Its really all that simple. No need to use the "might is right" philosophy because that is a savage philosophy which leads to never ending conflicts.

That was a non binding resolution.It had no clause of mandatory enforceability.So no we don't have to abide this resolution.

China never accepted the Aksai Chin under British imperialism.

Firstly India has to hold a plebiscite under partition rules, and secondly Nehru agreed to the UN resolutions, so became binding. But for some strange reason Nehru backed off in the last minute. Quite interesting isn;t it.

When you agree with something it becomes binding.

 

[Azazel]

India must do it at the same however.

Only one party cannot do it on his side.

It has to be balanced or fair.

Sorry but Kashmir is first. Anyone who says do anything else, is just holding the Kashmir issue hostage to other issues.



I disagree with the political suicide. Just solve the Kashmir dispute according to just and moral principles.

Its really all that simple. No need to use the "might is right" philosophy because that is a savage philosophy which leads to never ending conflicts.

With this attitude Kashmir issue will never be solved.Both sides have to make compromises.If you don't have the mentality for that then don't talk about it.

 

[PakShah]

With this attitude Kashmir issue will never be solved.Both sides have to make compromises.If you don't have the mentality for that then don't talk about it.

Umm...no..thats not right. The side which is supporting justice has no need to compromise on any issue.

The "Might is Right" philosophy will only cause more conflicts.

And please don't tell how to talk about it. IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO SOLVE THE ISSUE ACCORDING TO JUST AND MORAL PRINCIPLES, WELL THEN ACCEPT PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO FIGHT FOR JUSTICE.

CAN'T ACCEPT THAT, WELL THEN WHAT TO DO. ANYONE SUPPORTING INJUSTICES IS A CRIMINAL.

I have to go. It has been interesting to talking to the Indians here. Apparently they want to follow "might is right" philosophy, which is indeed a dangerous philosophy.

Okay have it your way, then I;m afraid conflict is the path Pakistan and India will have to take, since Pakistan is taking the moral stance and should follow it.

Since this is all about justice.

 

[SQ8]

Forget the Kargil escapade. People have moved on from Kargil, its sort of forgotten from the memory now. I think Musharraf should be barred from politics in Pakistan because of his mistakes. He made too many.

You are saying Musharraf is a liar? Well, Musharrad was never model leader for Pakistan anyways.

4500 troops dead is forgotten????
India is beating the drums of some 160 people for the past five years.. and you are willing to forget 4500 deaths?
India has taken hundreds of security officials to task for letting a few young men who did not cost more than a $100000 to train and has taken measures to make sure it does not happen again.. it has gone beyond paranoia and obsession(which is a little loony.. understandable but loony).
And you arent even willing to hold people accountable for 4500 of your fathers/sons/brothers?? Who were abandoned to be massacred by the enemy?

Why do you think you are in this mess Mr Intellectual? its because you never hold any lessons to heart.
Its easy to dismiss Musharraf as a liar, Yahya as a womanizer.. ..but it takes courage, it takes humility, it takes HUMANITY.. to admit to a mistake like sending Soldiers on a suicide mission, or pushing the genocide of your own countrymen as an order upon your troops.

You cannot have peace with India tomorrow,a lot of their public and all of their media is like a rabid dog(pardon the analogy..not meant for disrespect) when it comes to Pakistan and everything bad about it.
On the flipside, the Pakistani public has been fed trash upon trash, rhetoric upon rhetoric about Hindu India and its evil designs..
And that mutual hatred, the need to have the better hand, the better gun than each other has pushed billions of dollars.. and I mean BILLIONS of dollars of money from their coffers to the supplies in the east and west.
Money that when spent at critical times, NOW.. would help alleviate problems A LOT FASTER even if they have acceptable budget goals for it. If fixing poverty in India will take ten years, it could take eight with that money.
If promoting education in Pakistan was to take 25 years it could take twenty..

Heck let India go ahead and buy more weapons, and we can buy ours.. the trade alone would add enough money to our coffers and theirs that it would allow for that amount to spend on both weapons and money as long as there was assurance that there were no unfinished issues between us that would incite problems.

And what about Kashmir, do all of you think Kashmiris are stupid to let go of a struggle.. they just found a better way.. and this is not an assessment based on propaganda from either side its based on the testaments of Kashmiris.
Right now, their focus is on making their lives better.. and getting more freedom.
If they cannot have independence then they will try for greater autonomy and they know they can force even the Indian puppets to push for it. There is still support for the movement in Kashmir and its widespread.. and the movement and those young men that hold its banner today have moved on from Guns and Grenades.. they see the solution as education , as taking over all power reins from external forces within the government they have now.. and raising the issue through the world WITHOUT an India or Pakistan speaking for them.
And it is working, even within India.. and outside of it. Pakistan is no longer needed to wave the banner and breed cobra's to strike...although those snakes are coming back for us..

Let there be old grudges, and we can keep the arms focused still.. but still keep them at levels that would ensure defense but not be an undue burden.. it would keep suspicions.. but not paranoia.
Moreover, with all that immediate worry gone.. there would be lesser justification for us to bow down to the US and anybody else's demands on any moves they make for the resources in this region.

The intellectuals on both sides like Jaswant Singh recognized that and knew that.
They recognize that while our differences may not end at once, unless we begin ending them.. we will be exploited by these external powers just as they have done to us since they set foot on "OUR" soil some 500 years ago.

Its our problem, we will solve it our way. We fight, we talk, we bicker.. but we do not need therapy from the proverbial Hannibal lecters of the world.