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THE OTHER COLUMN: Up shitcreek —Ejaz Haider

I apologize for not being fully aware of the account but as I said that these courts are more effective nonetheless as for the events that took place they will need to be looked into once again I apologize I had heard a false account on this from a friend of mine who supports these groups and as I said in my earlier post these people will purge in hell for this and the problems will be looked into. I completely disregard any kind of cruelty but I have lived in Dahran Saudi Arabia and seen this system in some sort of effectiveness.
 
Along with that I would also tell you that in Saudi Arabia when a person was lashed the lashes were treated by a doctor and if they were declared permanent then the lasher was punished I think that if the girl was found inoccent Justice will be served as qsaark revealed with 80 lashes to the one who gave this justice as well as the person who lashed the girl.
 
Here we have members of this forum defending this action in the name of swift justice.
Defending what? I guess I should have put this paragraph in the beginning of my post so people read it before they reach to the 'controvertial' part. I worte "The important thing we have to look into is, whether the girl was punished lawfully or not? Was she presented in the court of Qazi? Whether there were witnesses? Was she given a chance to defend her actions? If answer to any one of these questions is in no, then the people who punished her un-lawfully must be tried and punished accordingly."

The episode as I understand was: A 17 year old married girl was seen coming out of her house in the company of her “father in law” when her husband was not at home......... However no such test was carried out.
There are several versions of the said incident circulating. Another version is that she was a unmarried girl. Some boy or man came to her house for fixing their electricity and was seen by the neighbors and the story goes on.

Here we have a clear case of somebody accused on mere hearsay.
You may be very right here. At this point it is very difficult to say what really happened. What has come out in the media is more confusing and therefore cant be taken to draw any conclusions.

Good heavens Taliban lovers! Is there no limit up to which where you will excuse Taliban’s savagery.
No one is Taliban lover here and no one is supporting them. The way the video was filmed and posted leaves several questions behind. I am a male, 36 years old and in good health. After receiving 40 or 80 lashes, I would not be able to lift myself up from the ground on my own. Whereas in the video, the woman took the lashes, lifted her self up from the ground without any help and went into the house as if nothing had happened. Look at the body language of the woman, can someone say she just received lashes? The matter is already in the Supreme Court; we should wait and see what comes out from that.
 
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I watched ‘Alim on line’ yesterday on Geo TV by Dr Amir Liaqat Hussain where all the renowned Islamic scholars of Pakistan unanimously denounced this action and called it against the Sharia and un Islamic. Here we have members of this forum defending this action in the name of swift justice. What about the basic premise of any law that it is better to let 10 guilty men go free than punish one innocent victim? Incidentally Taliban justice head of Swat was invited but he declined to participate.

The episode as I understand was:

A 17 year old married girl was seen coming out of her house in the company of her “father in law” when her husband was not at home. On the complaints of a neighbor she was arrested and found guilty of being with a ‘non mahram’ alone thus suspected of committing adultery.

Father in law was not tried but only on the girl! No trial took place in the normal sense of the word; no other witnesses were called. Even I, with limited knowledge of Hadith, can say for certain that there can be no “Hadd” applied without four witnesses who swear that adultery actually took place. In the absence of these witnesses one could prove the same in today’s world by presence of the man’s semen thru medical examination. However no such test was carried out.

Here we have a clear case of somebody accused on mere hearsay. I am of grand father age myself; do you mean to say if I am home alone with my daughter in law, I would be suspected of committing adultery! What kind of dirty mind do these people have?

Good heavens Taliban lovers! Is there no limit up to which where you will excuse Taliban’s savagery. Haven’t you guys heard of the famous incidence of ‘necklace’? On such flimsy circumstantial evidence; had there been Taliban Islam, Ummul Momineen Hazrat Ayesha (Razi Allah Taala Anha,) would have been stoned to death! Whereas her innocence was vouched by Allah in a verse.

I am growing despondent about the level of the cruelty and ruthlessness that has crept into our polity. This is not the question of swift justice, neither of Islamic compassion. It is a clear case of people with little or no knowledge of the Sharia interpreting their prejudices and heretic beliefs as the word of Allah and applying it ruthlessly. This is a travesty of justice. If this is Islam, than I am would rather be called a Kafir but I refuse to accept this as Islam as preached by the holy Prophet (PBUH) who is nicknamed as Rahmatul al alameein (Kindest person in all the worlds).

To me Satan has got into people’s hearts that they are defaming the most peaceful religion on earth by interpreting it in the cruelest possible way. Nevertheless, even the Jamaat Islami Amir, Syed Munawwar Hassan has come out in the open by declaring that he likes Taliban and that Taliban rule in Afghanistan is the best gov't he has seen. Is this the level of thinking among the Islamist parties!

Niaz, i am also shocked to say the least when people who claim to represent Islam show their absolutely pathetic grasp on the principles of Islam.
The Pro Taliban attitude of our religious parties is simply there because they lack the moral fiber and conviction in their own cause and want to remain attached to all the parties who are in the power struggle.

To me the worse hypocrites are our current Islamic parties, they just want power no matter what the cost.
Their arrogance in their right to champion Islam is seconded only by their blind ambitions to exert their power on the common folk.

I would like to see people supporting such acts tried in courts and severely punished for for heresy, support of terrorism and treachery to the state.

BTW the most severe punishment in Islam was stoning to death and that was reserved only for those people who publicly and repeatedly committed extremely base/destructive acts which had a cancerous effect on society.
Based on this definition it is the Taliban and their overt supporters who fall in this category!

Our Mullahs/Political Islamic parties cannot get out of their desire to control and target women, wretched beasts most have become, utterly pathetic.
 
I think it is more than their pathetic grasp on the principles of Islam. As you have mentioned and correctly so, these so called Islamic parties have their own agenda and they will go after it at any cost. We all know that these fat-belly Mullahs got rich during the Afghan war. Who benefited most from the Afghan war than these so called Mullahs? and who was affected the most after the Russians left Afghanistan? Again the Mullahs. War in Afghanistan is in their best interest so the cash keeps flowing into their coffers. Now that is all right, we know how hypocrite they are. Question is how to counter their influence?

As my understanding goes, we can't counter their influence by liberalism or secularism. We can't counter their influence by bashing Islamic principles and labeling Shariyat and its punishments inhumane, medieval, and brutal. No way, because deep inside us, we do lean towards the Islamic teachings. Islam is buried deep inside the marrow of our bones, and this is exactly what these so called Mullahs exploit us of.

Fact of the matter is, it is we who are collectively responsible for the power of these Mullahs. When I was a child, my mother made me learn Quran, Hadith, and Behishti Zewar (my family is Hanafi/Deobandi). By the time I reached to the age of 12, I was already aware of the principles of Hanafi Islam. Hence I didn't had to go to some Mullah for guidance. How many of us are taught Islamic Principles during their teens? Even after growing up, how many of us bother to read books to get the true understanding of Islam? rather we find it easy to go to a Mullah and follow his version.

How many of our parents send their intelligent and bright kids to memorize Quran and read Islamic studies? in fact we only send our mentally incompetent kids to Madrassas. What would be the result once these mentally incompetent people would come out from those Madrassas? No one bothered to think about it.

How many prominent Islamic Scholars are invited to join our political parties? Why can’t we have PhDs in Islamic studies in our political parties, and in the armed forces who can counter the power of these Taliban-like elements by their scholarly debates?

This war can never be won by introducing western-style liberalism in Pakistan. We have to provide a better alternative system to the Pakistanis so that they are no longer attracted by the Taliban-style system. If our courts were doing what they were suppose to do in the first place, why would a sane person welcome Taliban Courts? If our Police was doing its job in the first place, why would somebody pay to the Taliban for protection? If our religious Scholars were guiding people in the first place, why on earth people would welcome Talibani Shariyat? And if our Government was running this country as it was supposed to be run in the first place, why the public would welocome Talibani style Government? These things happen and proliferate when there is a vacuum present, take this vacuum out, they'll die on their own.
 
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JK - can u kindly name his ancestral village!

My home village is Hangu situated in Orakzai agency.

It is unfortunately too well known already for sectarian violence and a large scale operation in the district last year against militants angry at the arrest of Riaffudin one of Mehsuds Lts.
 
This war can never be won by introducing western-style liberalism in Pakistan. We have to provide a better alternative system to the Pakistanis so that they are no longer attracted by the Taliban-style system. If our courts were doing what they were suppose to do in the first place, why would a sane person welcome Taliban Courts? If our Police was doing its job in the first place, why would somebody pay to the Taliban for protection? If our religious Scholars were guiding people in the first place, why on earth people would welcome Talibani Shariyat? And if our Government was running this country as it was supposed to be run in the first place, why the public would welocome Talibani style Government? These things happen and proliferate when there is a vacuum present, take this vacuum out, they'll die on their own.

not so!

u may be surprised but it is called Education - Educate your people so that they can make up their "own minds" about "right" or "wrong" and not be duped by anybody (politicians, mullahs or extremists).

its not about western liberalism, it about moderation. after all Islam is a religion about peace, compassion and equality.
 
One Hon Member has proudly declared that he is knowledgeable and of Hanafi Deobandi persuasion. I on the other hand am partial towards Braelvi maslak. IMO Deobandi School is the focal point of extremism and the followers believe in forcing their beliefs down people’s throat thru use of force. All the Deobandi Ulemas were against Pakistan’s creation and the same forces wont worry too much even if Pakistan breaks up.

Majority of people in Pakistan were converted to Islam thru the efforts and personal example of Saints and Pirs (something abhorrent to the Deobandis) and belonged to Braelvi maslak. However, debate about various sects within Islam has been going on for ages and is not going to be resolved in the Defence Forum. As the name implies: it is a forum for the Defence of Pakistan.

IMO implementation of Sharia in parts of Pakistan is putting the survival of Pakistan State at risk. This question had been settled in the system of laws unanimously agreed in the 1973 Constitution. It was the evil and bigot Zia ul Haq who started a parallel system in Pakistan. The only document which unanimously agreed by elected representatives of all the federal units is 1973 Constitution. It clearly states that no law shall be passed which is contrary to the Quran & Sunnah. Why the need of a parallel system?

Why do you think there are two or even three Eids in Pakistan? Because people lie under oath that the moon has been sighted when it was scientifically impossible as the moon was not physically there to be seen! This happens every year. Can we honestly accept such bigots to implement Sharia Laws in the true spirit of Islam? I quote below an article by Dr Ayesha Siddiqa, who has quite rightly mentioned that even Sufi Mohammed will not qualify as a witness if the strict rules of Sharia are applied


Quote.

Many readings of Sharia By Ayesha Siddiqa
Friday, 03 Apr, 2009 | 01:48 AM PST THE students of Jamia Hafsa want nizam-i-adl implemented in the entire country as a way out of the current crisis. They also want Taqi Usmani, their mufti, as chief qazi.

Their demands must have attracted plenty of attention and support, especially from those who feel that the new legal system in Swat is the best possible solution to the conflict there.

Some people support the Sharia in Swat for at least three reasons. First, it is believed that the Sharia alone will give ordinary people in Swat the speedy system of justice that they want. Second, since the Sharia is the demand of the Swat Taliban, they believe that it is a good idea to implement the system there while ensuring it remains disconnected from the rest of the country. Third, imposing the Sharia is not an issue because that’s what is prescribed by the 1973 Constitution according to which all laws have to be in conformity with the Sharia.

But it is worth clarifying that the 1973 Constitution stipulates that all laws conform to the Quran and Sunnah, with no mention of the Sharia. This means that Sharia was not treated on a par with the Quran and Sunnah. This also indicates that the constitution gives the right of interpretation of laws of the state to legislators acting on behalf of the people rather than dogmatic ones of the past.

Those responsible for law- and constitution-making did not depend on the Sharia for both deliberate and inadvertent reasons. There was a conscious decision to keep the state from becoming a theocracy. A theocracy was certainly not the intention of the father of the nation Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Another critical factor pertained to the larger question of which interpretation to apply.

After all, the Sharia is an interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah. A quick reading of Islamic history amply demonstrates that the rulers and the socio-cultural environment of their time equally influenced interpretations by various individuals. For instance, it is said that the Abbasids directly influenced the process of the development of religious laws, during the latter’s codification, to suit their own interests. According to Islamic scholar Tahir Wasti, some of the comparatively minor crimes then were punishable by the state. However, the bigger crime of murder was left out of this categorisation.

In Pakistan, the Sharia debate started under Ziaul Haq whose primary objective was strengthening his power rather than making society Islamic. Unfortunately, there were certain judges who helped the military dictator cheat the entire country by boosting his efforts to have in place Sharia laws that suited his interests. This in itself is indicative of the fact that the Sharia was open to interpretation.

The main purpose of any law is to bring peace and justice to society. A law becomes meaningless if it cannot do so. In Pakistan’s case, as demonstrated by Wasti through his meticulously gathered data on the implementation of the law of Qisas and Diyat in the country, there appears to be a correlation between the imposition of religious laws and increasing crime in the country, especially homicide.Since the law of evidence makes the implementation of Qisas difficult, the state had primarily depended on using the law of Diyat. This essentially meant that a crime like murder, that can have far-reaching repercussions for society at large, was deemed a private matter that could be settled through compromise.

For those, who argue that the purpose of blood money and compromise denote the spirit of forgiveness encouraged by Islam, the implementation of this law in Pakistan proved to be better suited to the interests of the powerful and did not, in fact, reflect a sense of evenhanded justice and forgiveness for all tiers of society. In many cases, the poor and weak were forced to accept a compromise. Interestingly, the system was never strongly challenged by the legal community as a whole, perhaps because a compromise could mean less work while being paid the same fee in the case of some lawyers.

Referring to the peculiar situation in Swat, could one expect any better from Sufi Mohammad and his son-in-law Fazlullah than to implement the Sharia law in a way that suited their interests? The law of Qisas is also problematic because the conditions for a witness cannot be met by most including Sufi Mohammad, Fazlullah and the rest of their crew. It seems quite likely that those people whose loved ones have been murdered by the militants will be forced to accept a compromise in the name of the Sharia.

In fact, the Swati people have little choice in the matter because the state has abdicated the right to administer justice. This is certainly not in line with the instructions of the Quran and Sunnah, which, were these to be implemented in their true spirit, would require a fundamental re-negotiation of the legal regime in Pakistan and all over the Muslim world. Other Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia are not any safer even with the implementation of religious laws by the most powerful. Ultimately, any law has to have the inherent capability to protect the individual and society at large. It is a question of debate whether religious laws in the Muslim world have been able to achieve this.

The writer is an independent strategic and political analyst.


ayesha.ibd@gmail.com

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Many-readings-of-Sharia
 
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The way the video was filmed and posted leaves several questions behind. I am a male, 36 years old and in good health. After receiving 40 or 80 lashes, I would not be able to lift myself up from the ground on my own. Whereas in the video, the woman took the lashes, lifted her self up from the ground without any help and went into the house as if nothing had happened. Look at the body language of the woman, can someone say she just received lashes?

That’s a little dubious I must say. 36 isn't exactly the same as 17 and unless you've been flogged by the same Taliban before you're unlikely to know if you can get back up. Secondly, I've seen other videos of Taliban flogging in Swat with almost the same format and the men there were able to get up, ask for water, and walk to the barn nearby and collapse. We must all be careful about jumping to conclusions; however we shouldn’t look for excuses to simply deny everything we don’t like.
 
The one thing that always gets me about burkha is how come hardly any woman wear it when they do hajj.
 
not so!

u may be surprised but it is called Education - Educate your people so that they can make up their "own minds" about "right" or "wrong" and not be duped by anybody (politicians, mullahs or extremists).

its not about western liberalism, it about moderation. after all Islam is a religion about peace, compassion and equality.
No I wont be surprised because I myself is a teacher and know how much education changes a person. Whoever is in the Government is educated yes or no? are they aware of what is right and what is not? do they always do things which are right for the country? We who are debating on this forum are also educated, why than we think so differently? It is not education that makes one understand what is wrong and what is not, it is the upbringing, one's company in which he move, his habits of reading, and many other factors which give one a sense of right and wrong.
 
That’s a little dubious I must say. 36 isn't exactly the same as 17 and unless you've been flogged by the same Taliban before you're unlikely to know if you can get back up. Secondly, I've seen other videos of Taliban flogging in Swat with almost the same format and the men there were able to get up, ask for water, and walk to the barn nearby and collapse. We must all be careful about jumping to conclusions; however we shouldn’t look for excuses to simply deny everything we don’t like.
You may be right, however, a 17/18 years old FEMALE can be stronger than a 36 year old MALE? I guess time to go back to Medical Physiology books.
 
You may be right, however, a 17/18 years old FEMALE can be stronger than a 36 year old MALE? I guess time to go back to Medical Physiology books...

Now lets not be naive. To say that a 17 year old boy will always be stronger than a 17 year old girl is not very medically accurate. Also it’s not a question of body mass or muscle strength; but in stamina and vigor things are evenly matched I must say. I won't be surprised if a 17 year old girl can march longer or climb a rope faster than a 37 year old. Anyway we can’t attribute weakness on the basis of sex alone.
 
The one thing that always gets me about burkha is how come hardly any woman wear it when they do hajj.

Every Woman wears Burqa what ever sect of Islam she follows. I think that Kasrkin is right I have seen people being flogged before though I have to admit that the person flogging had a Quran under his arm in those senarios and paramedics were near by in those conditions.
 
There you have it - real Islam - and even more incredible, on this forum, tt members assert their approval of such.
 

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