The Original Pakistan Could've Been Saved

[salman nedian]

Exactly what I was trying to tell Agnostic Muslim.. Pakistanis see themselves as saviours of Indian Muslims...


Those people born or descendants of those born on the east of Radcliffe's Punjab line and on the west of Bangladesh-India border pre-1947 and who chose to follow Jinnah's 2-nation theory and shifted to Pakistan are the creators of Pakistan.. also called Mohajirs... not Indian Muslims..


an India born Muslim living in India or Those who chose to stay back have no sense of allegiance whatsoever with Pakistan, and they don't have to prove their loyalties to anyone. If push comes to shove I would expect them to fight as courageously as any another Indian in protecting their motherland..

I am a Muhajir and my relatives are still living in India. My Grandfather was a freedom fighter and my family actively participated in Pakistan movement so if some of my family members are living in India they are still the creators of Pakistan and Pakistan will keep raising the voice for their safety and rightly so.

Personally don't you think it "would" disgust you to see that those who are born in your nation have allegiance to its enemies that a nation allows enemies to breed within in their borders.. and I would rather rejoice to see a nation annihilating the enemies breeding within its border..

If you are referring to Bengalis than this shows the role of India in the separation of East Pakistan.

PS: what about the Bihari Muslims (your brothers) being ill treated by Bangladeshis (again your mothers) and why are not they brought to Pakistan (your nation)???

Many Biharis(our brothers) were brought to Pakistan and still I m all for bringing the remaining back. Pakistan has a very big heart when Bangladesh (our brother) was forcefully separated there were no killings of Bengalis(our brothers)in West Pakistan rather we allowed them to choose their place of living still hundreds of thousands of Bengalis(our brothers) are living in Pakistan and we see them as equal Pakistanis.

I think Vinod thought the discussion was about India... (there are bengalis and punjabis in India too)

That’s what I am trying to convey him that grow up and start understanding on which forum he is posting.

the same way you have the "pain" which prompted you to make the statement


in any case I don't think Vinod2070 will disagree too much when i say that there is pain to see people dying and fighting a battle that will never end by means of violence...

Who started all that violence?

 

[Malang]

I am a Muhajir and my relatives are still living in India. My Grandfather was a freedom fighter and my family actively participated in Pakistan movement so if some of my family members are living in India they are still the creators of Pakistan and Pakistan will keep raising the voice for their safety and rightly so.

and if you think your family living in India feels strongly about Pakistan then why do they live in India???

I think they should be arrested for sedition or for being traitors.... and any Hindus or Sikhs or others in Pakistan owing allegiance to India over Pakistan should be arrested and jailed...

If you are referring to Bengalis than this shows the role of India in the separation of East Pakistan.

So you refuse to believe that East Pakistan wanted Independence because of issues with West Pakistan..

To be fair it was teh British which partitioned Bengal almost a century back..

Many Biharis(our brothers) were brought to Pakistan and still I m all for bringing the remaining back.

You are all for?? for 36 years they are living in Ghettos ostracized by the Bangla mainstream society... what have you done for your brothers??

Pakistan has a very big heart when Bangladesh (our brother) was forcefully separated there were no killings of Bengalis(our brothers)in West Pakistan rather we allowed them to choose their place of living still hundreds of thousands of Bengalis(our brothers) are living in Pakistan and we see them as equal Pakistanis.

Lot of your West Pakistani brothers maltreated and killed your East Pakistani brothers in East Pakistan..

That’s what I am trying to convey him that grow up and start understanding on which forum he is posting.

It was an honest mistake even I fell for it..

Who started all that violence?

so we go back to where we started..

the question is not who started the violence but who will bring peace..
not who wants to prove his righteous but who is willing to forgive...
not who started the enmity but who wants to embrace friendship..
not who is wrong but who wants to do the right thing..

 

[Vinod2070]

Hindi is the language of your Country. Urdu is our language. You can only make wrong corrections here we are talking about our Country.

You jumped the gun. Look at the posts again and you will find it was about India, our country.

The thing started from the following quote by you.

The Capital of India is Delhi and UP is the biggest province of India so why any city of UP is not the capital of India?

if one bengali and one punjabi both villagers want to talk to each other which language will they speak???

Because the first line is about India, it was natural for me to assume that it was Indian Punjabis and Bengalis (since Bangladesh is no longer part of Pakistan and the sentence is in present tense).

Keep saying this to them we are not stopping you than why you have the pain?

Keep this fact in mind that Azad Kashmir became the part of Pakistan after independence while Bangladesh didn’t join India.belongs to

No pain at all, dear. I just found it a good advice that I hope the few separatists in Kashmir would pay heed to it as well. It will end the sufferings for a large majority of peaceful people.

Who ever said that Bangladesh should be a part of India. Certainly no Indian ever wanted it. They chose to forego that option when they separated in 1947. In fact its a wonder how they can come as refugees in such large numbers to India now. They should go to the country they chose to be a part of in 1947. We saved them in 1971 and liberated them. Now it is up to them to decide what they want to do. If they want to be a part of Pakistan again, let them decide so.

Practically the only hope for them is to develop good relations with all neighboring countries and especially with India. That can be their only salvation. Else they appear to be a Godforesaken country with more than their fair share of problems and natural disasters. They will be the first to go down if the climate change predictions materialize and they have nowhere to go if they make India their enemy because of stupid politicians and extremist fundamentalists.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

and if you think your family living in India feels strongly about Pakistan then why do they live in India???

I think they should be arrested for sedition or for being traitors.... and any Hindus or Sikhs or others in Pakistan owing allegiance to India over Pakistan should be arrested and jailed...

I don't think Salman at any point expressed anything about being "the savior" of Indian Muslims - what he has indicated is that he has family ties to India, and cares for them. To translate that into "we are their saviors and are fighting in their behest" is completely wrong.

And why on earth are you talking about sedition? First of all, Salman did not mention at any point that those people owed allegiance to Pakistan over India - perhaps only that they care about Pakistan, and participated in the movement for its creation.

Malang and Vindod:

When were India and Pakistan a single nation, and not a colony or part of a forcibly conquered empire?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Vinod:

You mentioned that "facts do not support perceptions" and you yourself throw in one "mis perception" about the status of minorities in Pakistan - that of their low number. I think it would be incorrect to state that without showing that low number is not because of the migration out of Pakistan, similar to the migration out of India. Pakistan's population being smaller than India's would show a much greater percentage change. Also, what percentage of the minorities that did remain in Pakistan were in East Pakistan?

The issue of "history" that is repeatedly brought up is also incorrect to a large extent - I studied under that curriculum, and at no point do I remember being indoctrinated with "Hate Hindus" or any such nonsense. Yes there was an argument made that the Muslim communities that eventually made up Pakistan had to separate to protect their interests, but that does not equate "teaching hatred".

 

[salman nedian]

Correction! It is Hindi.

It is a good habit to read the full discussion and in the right context . your “Victory” indicator indicates opposite of what u are saying.

Any ways get on with the topic.

 

[salman nedian]

and if you think your family living in India feels strongly about Pakistan then why do they live in India???

I think they should be arrested for sedition or for being traitors.... and any Hindus or Sikhs or others in Pakistan owing allegiance to India over Pakistan should be arrested and jailed...

Once I met with a Hindu in interior sindh and his family supported Congress before partition but he is still living in Pakistan and he is not involved in any anti Pakistan activities and accepts Pakistan as his country.

The point is if Muslims are living in India it does not give India a license to kill them and demolish their mosques. Pakistan reserves all the rights to raise voice for their safety.

So you refuse to believe that East Pakistan wanted Independence because of issues with West Pakistan..

Lot of your West Pakistani brothers maltreated and killed your East Pakistani brothers in East Pakistan..

India worked as a catalyst and with their wrong and false propaganda they were involved in the separation same as when you were suggesting me to think all the Bengalis as traitors.

You are all for?? for 36 years they are living in Ghettos ostracized by the Bangla mainstream society... what have you done for your brothers??

We brought many back and Pakistan will bring the remaining back as parties like MQM and Jamaat-e-Islami are trying their best for their rehabilitation.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

guyz, don't worry about the original pakistan. many bangladeshis are starting to see what pakistan has to offer, power. they are starting to realize the pan-islamic dream and pakistan as the beacon for it. the isi has a very strong presence in bangladesh and their influence is spreading. you'd be surprise to find out what bangladeshis think.

 

[mujahideen]

guyz, don't worry about the original pakistan. many bangladeshis are starting to see what pakistan has to offer, power. they are starting to realize the pan-islamic dream and pakistan as the beacon for it. the isi has a very strong presence in bangladesh and their influence is spreading. you'd be surprise to find out what bangladeshis think.

I totally agree with what you just said. I have spoken to many Bangladeshis and I cant help it but to get the feeling that they regret declaring independence. Many of the older Bangalis say they were better off when they were with Pakistan.

 

[Awesome]

I think both India and Pakistan should learn something from Bangladesh, (and that is not being ungrateful ;-) .. ungratefulness is not a virtue)

They have buried their animosity with Pakistan.. India and Pakistan should also bury their differences and accept each other for who they are...

Pakistan should realise Indian Muslims or other minoriteis do not view them as their saviours and neither Pakistan has any onus/God-given right to fight in their stead..

That is a unique view I have heard only from Indian non-Muslims, primarily Hindus.

Pakistan has no savior, protector complex.

The only people under Indian control we are interested in are Kashmiris.

India should realise an average Pakistani has as much hand in causing terror in India, as an average Indian has a hand in demolishing Babri Masjid...

that would be nice. Calling us terrorists and then asking for peace is akin to calling us nasty curse words and then trying to give us a cuddly hug.

as for Kashmir both sho the 2 nation theory (I have tried to explain this in an earlier post).. and can never be solved..uld realise that they have screwed Kashmiris... and it is basically an ideological fight and the ideology they are fighting over is

Again calling Pakistan movement, i.e. Tehreek-e-Pakistan the two-nation theory, is also a more or less an Indian thing. Pakistan was not made with an agenda of putting up a second nation, there were a series of factors involved which resulted in Pakistan.

in the interest of Kashmir bury your differences and forge strong links so that there are greater links and a Union like EU or US-CAnada like relationship can be cultivated which will make Kashmir and Kashmiris united not Pakistani or Indian governed Kashmir.. where Kashmiris are divided...

Let India and Pakistan prove the Divide and Rule theory redundant...

Again, you gotta ask yourself who are India and Pakistan to decide upon what we do about Kashmir. Let the Kashmiris decide.

both should realise that what is portrayed is not always true.. an avg Pakistani or Indian is not a diabolical degenerate devil incarnate as is made out to be... and both follow a culture, belief system in which division is considered a transgression and brotherhood is stressed hence why the need to be hostile or divide (or support separatism)....

Quite obviously true. But that's not a reason enough to bury the hatchet. There are fundamental reasons involved in each of our demands.

Pakistan cannot give up the Kashmir demand and India cannot give up Kashmir to Pakistan.

We do need to find middle ground.

 

[Awesome]

Ahh but we were never one country....

... Excellent pontification. Let's not start with wrong assumptions to begin with.

 

[Samudra]

The issue of "history" that is repeatedly brought up is also incorrect to a large extent - I studied under that curriculum, and at no point do I remember being indoctrinated with "Hate Hindus" or any such nonsense. Yes there was an argument made that the Muslim communities that eventually made up Pakistan had to separate to protect their interests, but that does not equate "teaching hatred"

Agnostic.

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | US concern at Pakistan textbooks

The report adds that in these textbooks, students are taught that "Islam brought peace, equality, and justice to the subcontinent, to check the sinister ways of Hindus." The report adds that "In Pakistani textbooks “Hindus” rarely appears in a sentence without adjective such as politically astute, sly, or manipulative."

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of Curr&TextBooks.pdf

The SDPI report was written by Pakistani Muslims I think.

I was going to quote the report but I think it should be fully read. Sorry friend, the lie that Pakistani textbooks did not speak ill of Hindu's and glorified jihad is not bought anywhere in this gods green earth. You can either acknowledge the error and rectify it or continue teaching your kids to blow up.

I'm sorry to have called you a liar here, but hey, if it can help a kid learn that jihadi isn't something really great as their seniors in school were taught to be....

 

[Malang]

Once I met with a Hindu in interior sindh and his family supported Congress before partition but he is still living in Pakistan and he is not involved in any anti Pakistan activities and accepts Pakistan as his country.

No wonder he is still living in Pakistan.. I wouldn't expect him to behave otherwise. Pakistan is his motherland after all.
that gentleman must be from Shikarpur or Larkana?

The point is if Muslims are living in India it does not give India a license to kill them and demolish their mosques. Pakistan reserves all the rights to raise voice for their safety.

The point is Pakistan has no right to question India over its treatment of Muslims. period. Do you think Pakistan is the saviour of Indian Muslims (from the harsh rule of Hindus)?

Does Pakistan question China over its ill treatment of Muslism, British with its "propaganda" shows on Muslims and Islam? or Russia with its treatment of Chechnya? etc. etc.

India worked as a catalyst and with their wrong and false propaganda they were involved in the separation same as when you were suggesting me to think all the Bengalis as traitors.

please explain I didn't get you..

We brought many back and Pakistan will bring the remaining back as parties like MQM and Jamaat-e-Islami are trying their best for their rehabilitation.

good...
( you are suggesting that your Pakistani brothers are helping your Bihari Muslim brothers escape the harsh rule of your Bangladeshi brothers and come to Pakistan but do you know some of your Sindhi brothers have an objection to it.. and for 27 years your Bihari brothers have suffered at the hands of your Bangladeshi brothers?)

 

[Malang]

I don't think Salman at any point expressed anything about being "the savior" of Indian Muslims - what he has indicated is that he has family ties to India, and cares for them. To translate that into "we are their saviors and are fighting in their behest" is completely wrong. And why on earth are you talking about sedition? First of all, Salman did not mention at any point that those people owed allegiance to Pakistan over India
- perhaps only that they care about Pakistan, and participated in the movement for its creation.

Pakistan reserves all the rights to raise voice for their safety.

-----------

Malang and Vindod:

When were India and Pakistan a single nation, and not a colony or part of a forcibly conquered empire?

when was Sindh and Northern Areas one nation??? It is a feeling of nationalism that counts and can be cultivated.. regional and other differences are there no doubt ..
Nations cannot be narrowly defined in terms of a single ethnicity, region, language, religion etc..
though you can dig up historical texts and say oh Pakistani provinces had different rulers than India hence they were never united in past.. .. one ought to go into more detail than that (and I am not the right person for the job)... I don't think it is not about having one ruler.. it is about your feelings.. Germany was not even a nation till 100 years back...

India as a nation has had lots of regional powers ruled by their regional overlords but there are strings which unite them... India has a unique culture with regional variations and these differences don't serve to divide rather unite all the people..

India was unfortunate that it was never ruled unitedly by powerful Kings for most of its history but it doesn't mean that people thought themselves to be a different nation from one another (aka 2 nation theory) they always sought to assimiliate cultures and differences...

Agnostic you are more intellectual, knowledgeable than me and I don't think I will be able to convince nor do I have the luxury of reading up history and digging up info.. but in the hearts of hearts I like many Indians (and maybe Pakistanis) regard Pakistan and India as 1 nation... the proponents of 2 nation theory and some intellectuals? might disagree but since nationalism is a phenomena not definable hence their opinions matter as much as my own.....
I have nothing more to add to this discussion.. I am not here for debates or one upmanship.. you may have the last word..

 

[Malang]

That is a unique view I have heard only from Indian non-Muslims, primarily Hindus. Pakistan has no savior, protector complex.

Salman seems to suggest otherwise..
though in one-upmanship and in trying to deride the other(on secularism and rights of minorities) I may have got the impression... (from news and forums etc)

The only people under Indian control we are interested in are Kashmiris.

for you to control?
Jana doesn't seem to believe so (if she echoes the view of the article by pank aj misra she posted to corroborate her stance).. Kashmiris are both fed with Pakistan and India..

that would be nice. Calling us terrorists and then asking for peace is akin to calling us nasty curse words and then trying to give us a cuddly hug.

teh same way some HIndus are though of carrying out progroms against Muslims similarly some Indians feel that some Pakistanis are involved in supporting terror attacks against India..
name calling is very old.. either you bring your ego and say why do you call me names. or you be the bigger man and give a hug...

Again calling Pakistan movement, i.e. Tehreek-e-Pakistan the two-nation theory, is also a more or less an Indian thing. Pakistan was not made with an agenda of putting up a second nation, there were a series of factors involved which resulted in Pakistan.

I think one of the core of the theory as Jinnah propounded was that Hindus and Muslims are 2 nations who can't live together in peace since their beliefs and way of life are fundamentally different..

Again, you gotta ask yourself who are India and Pakistan to decide upon what we do about Kashmir. Let the Kashmiris decide.

I have said this.. but since I have also said that it is actually an ideological fight and the giving party will give legitemacy to the other's claim..
further Kashmir as an independent nation will not thrive...

Quite obviously true. But that's not a reason enough to bury the hatchet. There are fundamental reasons involved in each of our demands.
Pakistan cannot give up the Kashmir demand and India cannot give up Kashmir to Pakistan. We do need to find middle ground.

Middle ground involving concessions will require courageous leaders and drive from both sides.. MR. Zaradari has just recently echoed his reluctance on solving Kashmir... neither do I see any Indian or Pak politician(political party) commiting political suicide by giving concessions...

I feel with better relations between india and pak will negate the ongoing nightmare for Kashmiris on both sides and unite them.. (land area statisitics be damned)