The Original Pakistan Could've Been Saved

[Always Neutral]

That is what I am saying that we are humans and we can fight with each other so others should not have problems with that. Others should do their work and should not put their nose in our matters. Simple.

OK U WIN

only if you can quote me a verse from Islam which says

"THOU SHALL KILL TO MAKE UR BELIEFS HEARD"

regards

 

[salman nedian]

OK U WIN

only if you can quote me a verse from Islam which says

"THOU SHALL KILL TO MAKE UR BELIEFS HEARD"

regards

That was a hot up discussion nothing about winning and losing.

What my point was that yes it is also wrong that we fight with each other but we are humans we can fight. The beautiful thing of Islam is that it keep reminding us that we are Muslims and we should not fight with each other and we should remind this to ourselves so that we should not repeat the past mistakes

 

[Always Neutral]

That was a hot up discussion nothing about winning and losing.

What my point was that yes it is also wrong that we fight with each other but we are humans we can fight. The beautiful thing of Islam is that it keep reminding us that we are Muslims and we should not fight with each other and we should remind this to ourselves so that we should not repeat the past mistakes

Dear Salman,

I am sure Islam is beautiful otherwise more that a billion people would not be believing in it. So the problem is not with religion but how people interpret it to their benefit.

As I say sex and religion deserve to be kept in ones bedroom.

Regards

 

[Vinod2070]

Also accepting what the Kashmiris want would immediately negate all the horrors laid upon them.

They should forget and forgive and make a new beginning.

As you expect Bangladeshis to forget and forgive.

 

[Malang]

You want me to condemn the treatment of Biharis and I am saying that yes the treatment of Biharis by Bengalis was bad but it was in 1971 and now the situation is changing (That’s why I was referring to the thread starter’s site in which he showed sympathy and brotherhood with biharis).

I still feel your claim that their situation was bad in '71 and now is changing.. and Bangladeshis feel guilt/remorse for breaking away from Pakistan .. because of Muslim brotherhood is to me sounds a bit fragile..

1. Situation of Biharis in Bangladesh is still not comparable to Bangla Muslims..
2. Their treatment by Pakistani "brothers" was pretty unbrotherly hence their demand and fight for independence (and today if they feel remorse/guilt is because their state has not exactly advanced - speculatively)

so the talk of Brotherhood sounds lofty but ground realities are different...

refer to Always Neutrals posts..

It is a simple situation which is being made complex by you.

I hardly matter in the scheme of things..

AQ is fighting with us b/c they think that we are helping US against them

aren't you? + AQ wants a Shariat state (as per their interpretation of Islam.. they will fight irresp of situation now..)

and Indian installations in Afghanistan are gaining the most of this sad situation they are involved in terrorist activities in Baluchistan.

Speculative.. but then Indian govt is doing a disservice to itself by causing disturbances in Pakistan, a state who is its enemy and is engaged in a proxy war and has an official doctrine of nuking it in case of an attack by any nation..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Samudra:

You are a decent person after all. To be honest I wasn't expecting you to apologize, and thank you for tendering it.

I did indeed read an article about that particular assessment, and for some reason I didn't remember anything about it other than that it criticized certain historical narratives, exclusions and repeated mentions of Jihad and glorification of "Wars" etc.

Again, my own personal experience in the Pakistani system - and I was in it from grade 8 through 12 - never brought up the perception that "Hindus were bad" (though we did of course believe that India was out to undermine us every chance it got - but then I've found Indians believe that about Pakistan too).

I'll have to go through the report, and figure out what the context of most of those "distortions" is. If they were a part of the Urdu curriculum for example, then references to "sly Hindu" etc. would have occurred within the context of "characters" in stories/tales in Urdu, rather than a historical context. It is still a regrettable inclusion, and should be taken out, but it wouldn't necessarily be of as great an impact were it part of the history curriculum. Of course there could be such references within the history curriculum as well, but I can't say until I read the report.

You asked why I made my arguments based on my personal experience with the Pakistani education system? Well why not? What better than the views of someone who has been through the system, as a student (the targets of "propoganda" apparently per the report) to see if that was indeed what was taught.

Also remember that there are Provincial textbook boards, and Federal and provincial education boards - Urdu medium and English medium. I am still not certain, from the cursory look I gave the report, whether it assessed textbooks from all of those, or just the Punjab Textbook board.

PS: I am moving the posts on education to a new thread.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am saying this after reading up quite a bit on this issue, but obviously I am open to being corrected if anyone has better data.

There is no denying that Pakistan is now almost 97% Muslim, so there are hardly any minorities left there. This is a factually correct statement. So what we are really discussing is the reason for this state of affairs, not its veracity.

I have read that all 4 provinces now part of Pakistan had significant Hindu populations (obviously in varying %, NWFP and Baluchistan having much less %). Sindh and Punjab of course had a big Hindu/Sikh population. Lahore was a thriving center of Hindu/Sikh culture and it's economy was dominated by them.

They were certainly much larger than the 1.5% odd that they are now. Now partition and the accompanying violence and migration played a big part in this. But partition happened for both India and Pakistan. And migration took place on both sides. But India did not wipe out it's Muslim population to the same extent. And then let's look at the trend of the minority population (just in Western Pakistan) since 1947, does it tell something about the state of affairs in the two countries?

The idea here is to discuss just the facts and not to derive judgement based on that. To deny the plain facts would not be right.

Its an extremely reasonable way to approach it. If I remember correctly, there was a thread on the issue already. I'll see if I can find it and move the posts over, so we don't end up covering the same ground again. You can go ahead and post your data on this thread though, until I can find the other one.

AM, here I would just recount the story of the diplomat who was called "Hindu Kuttay" by a 5 year old when he went to the home of a Pakistani. This is a well known and published story and many people here would be aware of that.

I don't know your personal experiences but obviously they are not the equivalent of the average Pakistani.

This is not to say that many Indians may not have deeply ingrained prejudices.

That is an extremely regrettable incident. And by no means am I suggesting that prejudice amongst Pakistanis does not exist. My parents are Shia and Sunni - and I have had to listen to slurs from cousins (belonging to one sect), when we were children, directed at the other sect (to which one of parents belonged).

The above attitudes were not taught in school - they were ingrained through parental prejudice. Can our education system help reduce this? Yes it can, by incorporating the reforms Musharraf proposed, with a strong emphasis on human rights and freedom of faith and speech. I am still not convinced (only will be after reading the entire report Samudra linked too) that the education system is necessarily promoting intolerance and violence - but I do think that it isn't doing anything to dampen it.

EDIT: The Thread for discussing the demographic changes in Pakistan is here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...38-partition-estimate-population-changes.html

 

[salman nedian]

I still feel your claim that their situation was bad in '71 and now is changing.. and Bangladeshis feel guilt/remorse for breaking away from Pakistan .. because of Muslim brotherhood is to me sounds a bit fragile..

1. Situation of Biharis in Bangladesh is still not comparable to Bangla Muslims..
2. Their treatment by Pakistani "brothers" was pretty unbrotherly hence their demand and fight for independence (and today if they feel remorse/guilt is because their state has not exactly advanced - speculatively)

so the talk of Brotherhood sounds lofty but ground realities are different...

This is what I had said to Always Neutral

What my point was that yes it is also wrong that we fight with each other but we are humans we can fight. The beautiful thing of Islam is that it keep reminding us that we are Muslims and we should not fight with each other and we should remind this to ourselves so that we should not repeat the past mistakes

You are interpreting me wrongly I m not saying that Bangladeshis feel guilty I have only said that they want brotherly relations with Pakistan and want to forget the bitterness of past this is Islamic brotherhood friend. You are watching things from other perspective but I am optimistic and to me a little ray of hope is a great thing. You always have to take the first run for century. isn’t it?

 

[MOSABJA]

The topic "Original pakistan could've saved"

Should be "Original Pakistan could dtill be formed"

Pakistan and Bagladesh can still be together.

We have common ideology.
common interests
common enemy.
common needs.
common history.
common religion.


We can still have a confederation.

1)We can defend bagladesh .
2)have common currency.
3)Language is not very important.
4) free trade.


For it Pakistan has to be

1)defensively strong.
2)Economically strong .

and POLITICALLY STABLE.
solve our problems.
turn into regional power.

a UNION B/w PAK AND BANGLA IS POSSIBLE.

Benglis now are more inclined towards Pakistan .
Iqbals poetry is getting famous.

 

[salman nedian]

The topic "Original pakistan could've saved"

Should be "Original Pakistan could dtill be formed"

Pakistan and Bagladesh can still be together.

We have common ideology.
common interests
common enemy.
common needs.
common history.
common religion.


We can still have a confederation.

1)We can defend bagladesh .
2)have common currency.
3)Language is not very important.
4) free trade.


For it Pakistan has to be

1)defensively strong.
2)Economically strong .

and POLITICALLY STABLE.
solve our problems.
turn into regional power.

a UNION B/w PAK AND BANGLA IS POSSIBLE.

Benglis now are more inclined towards Pakistan .
Iqbals poetry is getting famous.

Exactly!

But the problem is there is no road map no body in the governments even thinks about it.

 

[mujahideen]

Exactly!
But the problem is there is no road map no body in the governments even thinks about it.

It totally agree with you and someone in the government should really think about this. Mr.Zardari apologized to the people of Baluchistan, it would of been even better if he apologized to the people of Bangladesh and asked them to be apart of the federation again. The Bengalis I think are very open on this issue, but they would want Mujib's 7 point to be accepted. And I personally think if it means keeping the federation together they should be accepted.

 

[MOSABJA]

It totally agree with you and someone in the government should really think about this. Mr.Zardari apologized to the people of Baluchistan, it would of been even better if he apologized to the people of Bangladesh and asked them to be apart of the federation again. The Bengalis I think are very open on this issue, but they would want Mujib's 7 point to be accepted. And I personally think if it means keeping the federation together they should be accepted.

First thing to be kept in mind is that the bengalis would never like to be a Province like the 4 we have.How ever they can or they may agree on a sort of confederation of
Common currency.
Free trade.
joint defence.
Joint foreign policy.

But this too can only be possible if Pakistan gets in a position to benefit Bengalis Greatly.

Right now we are too absorbed in our economic problems,Balochistan,FATA and presence of NATO in Afghanistan.

So re union of pakistan and bangladesh could only be possible if pakistan solves its problems,Makes itself stable,Turn into an economic power be Gwadar port,tapping our coal,gas,oi,copper,gold and also into a military power.

Only then can we expect a sort of union.

 

[mujahideen]

First thing to be kept in mind is that the bengalis would never like to be a Province like the 4 we have.How ever they can or they may agree on a sort of confederation of
Common currency.
Free trade.
joint defence.
Joint foreign policy.
But this too can only be possible if Pakistan gets in a position to benefit Bengalis Greatly.
Right now we are too absorbed in our economic problems,Balochistan,FATA and presence of NATO in Afghanistan.
So re union of pakistan and bangladesh could only be possible if pakistan solves its problems,Makes itself stable,Turn into an economic power be Gwadar port,tapping our coal,gas,oi,copper,gold and also into a military power.
Only then can we expect a sort of union.

I just think they want Mujib's 7 points to be accepted, but even on that they might be willing to negotiate.
The type of federation you stated above is what we need. If we really do look at Pakistan we have 2 very, very autonomious regions they are FATA and another which we say is not a part of Pakistan but in fact it is is Azad Kashmir. I think if we can give these regions autonimy then we surely can workout something with Bangladesh.
I think that some of the Bangalis on this forum should comment on this issue. I would like to here their opinion, we Pakistanis can say all we want but it will be up to the Bangalis to decide what they want.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

unfortunately, OIC, in all of its wisdom, hasn't formed an economic union. if we can't even have unison in that matter, you can bet we are far from a defense pact. however, it's important not to loose hope in Allah.

We must work with muslims all over the world to protect our interests and our way of life. Pakistan already provides a nuclear umbrella to saudi arabia. I've heard from a source that pakistan's army is much larger than the numbers shown.It has 15,000 troops stationed there just in case something happens. Pakistan also used to have troops in Qatar. I've mentioned the potential for our defense industry if we can capture just the muslim markets alone.

My opinion is that perhaps we expand our navy and convince other countries to provide us with naval bases. we can possibly control most of the indian ocean, insha'Allah. Just imagine, how far we would have come?

 

[salman nedian]

I think it’s not all about only economic cooperation and military dominance. It’s about National dignity and moral. Pakistan was made on the name of Islam and it’s really a disgrace on mother land’s face that we are divided. If it is not possible to make a federation than we can at least develop a Union and MOSABJA said that we need to stable ourselves economically I don’t think so that full economic stability is the prerequisite for our union actually the case was different in China-HK case b/c HK was under occupation while Pak-BD are free to take their decisions. I am really hopeful b/c I had talked to many Bangladeshis and the new generation wants to move with Pakistan and it is a natural alliance as well.

Although I don’t have much trust on PPP but one of their manifesto points is “Special relations with Bangladesh” I hope that this will become reality so that we can stand proudly in front of the world that look we were divided but Islam has joined us again (Inshallah).