The number zero was invented in Ancient Pakistan

[LaBong]

Why dont you read up on what we are saying instead of making false assumptions? Around 95% of modern Pakistanis are native and they are the natives of Indus Valley. Partition history is another shared chapter in the subcontinent and nobody is denying this. Indian Sindhis and Punjabis from the Indus region have every right to claim Indus Valley origin and history. But the remaining 97% of Indians have nothing to do with the Indus region.

We are not using modern borders to define Indus Valley, but the provinces and people who have always lived off the Indus rivers. Ancient Pakistan is just another word for this region because it is based on this region and its people.

So why calling them ancient Pakistani? Call them ancient Punjabi or ancient Sindhi or ancient Gujarati.

Like rest of India don't have a claim on IVC(although whole north India is a continuation of IVC), rest of Pakistanis have no claims at all. Come to think of it, rest of North Indians have more claim on IVC than rest of Pakistanis!

 

[LaBong]

People seem to forget that there was an east part of Pakistan as well. Pakistan was/is an idea, not a specific geographic region.

 

[KS]

Why dont you read up on what we are saying instead of making false assumptions? Around 95% of modern Pakistanis are native and they are the natives of Indus Valley. Partition history is another shared chapter in the subcontinent and nobody is denying this. Indian Sindhis and Punjabis from the Indus region have every right to claim Indus Valley origin and history. But the remaining 97% of Indians have nothing to do with the Indus region.

And where did you hit upon the magic number of 97 %...How do you know the previous posters were not included in the 3% and how can you guarentee me that all the Pakistani posters here are native to that land and not migrated form India during partition or before that.

C'mon.....how long can you go back in history ?

We are not using modern borders to define Indus Valley, but the provinces and people who have always lived off the Indus rivers. Ancient Pakistan is just another word for this region because it is based on this region and its people.

Sorry to burts your bubble - there is nothing called Ancient Pakistan.Pakistan as an entity came into being on 14 th August 1947.

These arguments are just as specious as white Australians claiming every achievement of the native aborigines just because today they happen to inhabit their land.

 

[Pagla Dashu]

India was also created after partition in 1947. This is a real fact.

Just a minor correction. It was Pakistan that was _created_ through partition. The Republic of India inherited the British India. That is why Pakistan had to apply afresh for its UN membership while India got the seat that British India held and accordingly continues to be considered as the founder member of UN, even though Republic of India didn't exist when UN was created. Now, go figure.

There is no India of a thousand years ago. India didnt exist before the British rule. I really cant understand these silly arguments where India is as old as the oldest relic found on the subcontinent. You seem to think the Indian subcontinent is your nation.

Forget Indian subcontinent, even the Republic of India is not a nation in classical sense. So no need to paint that herring red. But yes, India has existed even couple of thousand years ago - not as a homogeneous political entity but as a geographical entity which later assumed this geo-political identity that it is today. That the region east of Indus had a distinctive geographical identity is attested by several foreign scholars who visited this region during those times, as part of any conquest or on purely scholarly pursuit. This geographical identity, 'India', was latter borrowed to create a political identity once the foreign invaders decided to set shop in this region.

Its not rocket science you see. All you have to do is pick up a few books on history and flip through the pages. When I say 'books on history' I mean books of history not some work of fiction masquerading as history

Indians can only claim the history of their people. This does not include the Indus Valley and I think most Indians realise this, hence all the mass migration theories and vague IVC towns in India etc.

If you are saying it, it must be true.

Ancient Pakistan is a geographic region also known as Indus Valley (land of the Indus river). It is not a political concept.

Au contraire, Pakistan is an out and out political concept and the geography that Pakistan occupies has a very distinctive geographical identity and it begins with the letter 'I'. Pakistan never existed as a concept prior to early part of 20th Century and certainly not physically prior to 14 August, (or is it 15 August?) 1947.

There was no 'ancient' Pakistan. There was only ancient India.

 

[UnitedPak]

So why calling them ancient Pakistani? Call them ancient Punjabi or ancient Sindhi or ancient Gujarati.

Like rest of India don't have a claim on IVC(although whole north India is a continuation of IVC), rest of Pakistanis have no claims at all. Come to think of it, rest of North Indians have more claim on IVC than rest of Pakistanis!

I have said this a million times before. There is no evidence of a mass migration from the Indus Valley to North India. This is purely an Indian belief. Who were the original north Indians if this mass migration took place?

People seem to forget that there was an east part of Pakistan as well. Pakistan was/is an idea, not a specific geographic region.

Why derail an argument? We are talking about the Indus region and the fact that Pakistanis are native to this region. Bengalis are another matter.

And where did you hit upon the magic number of 97 %...How do you know the previous posters were not included in the 3% and how can you guarentee me that all the Pakistani posters here are native to that land and not migrated form India during partition or before that.

30 million Punjabis in India + a few million Sindhis. Or has this number grown? Give or take a few percent then. We are dealing with majorities as there will always be exceptions when Indians can only bring the partition argument to the table.

Sorry to burts your bubble - there is nothing called Ancient Pakistan.Pakistan as an entity came into being on 14 th August 1947.

These arguments are just as specious as white Australians claiming every achievement of the native aborigines just because today they happen to inhabit their land.

Back to square one. It has been said more than a million times that we are talking about the geographic region and not the political one. Call it Indus Valley if you have a problem with Ancient Pakistan.

Australia is another bad example which proves you are completely clueless. Pakistanis are the natives of Indus Valley. I cant help if you think we are Turkic or Arabs.

 

[KS]

Back to square one. It has been said more than a million times that we are talking about the geographic region and not the political one. Call it Indus Valley if you have a problem with Ancient Pakistan.

Australia is another bad example which proves you are completely clueless. Pakistanis are the natives of Indus Valley. I cant help if you think we are Turkic or Arabs.

You cant prove it.....There are more than enough historical evidence to prove IVC was infact a proto-Dravidian civilization and guess where Dravidians live today - South India.

So in absence of absolute,irrefutable proof this just becomes a shared civilization.

PS: By your same logic how can Pashtuns,Balochis etc can lay claim to the IVC ...? At the most it can be Sindhis and Punjabis.

 

[Pagla Dashu]

I have said this a million times before. There is no evidence of a mass migration from the Indus Valley to North India. This is purely an Indian belief. Who were the original north Indians if this mass migration took place?

Asko Parpola, Gregory L. Possehl, Michael Witzel, Steve Farmar, Frits Staal , G.F.Dales, just to name a few, are probably not Indians.

 

[UnitedPak]

You cant prove it.....There are more than enough historical evidence to prove IVC was infact a proto-Dravidian civilization and guess where Dravidians live today - South India.

So in absence of absolute,irrefutable proof this just becomes a shared civilization.

PS: By your same logic how can Pashtuns,Balochis etc can lay claim to the IVC ...? At the most it can be Sindhis and Punjabis.

Pashtuns live around the north Indus rivers and have lived there for thousands of years. Gandhara encompassed all of North Pakistan and Eastern Afghanistan in what are Pashtun majority lands. Gandhara grave culture emerged around the same time as the IVC died in the same area nonetheless.

The Dravidian theory is baseless as IVC language has never been deciphered.

Asko Parpola, Gregory L. Possehl, Michael Witzel, Steve Farmar, Frits Staal , G.F.Dales, just to name a few, are probably not Indians.

The guy above you claims they were South Indian. The others are claiming North Indian. Which one is it? I said there is no evidence because the IVC language has never been deciphered, but that doesnt stop them from proving a Dravidian link. Impressive.

 

[Jade]

I have said this a million times before. There is no evidence of a mass migration from the Indus Valley to North India. This is purely an Indian belief. Who were the original north Indians if this mass migration took place?

Let me quote from the UCLA website about the Aryans pushing Indus Valley people down south of India. Now don't say UCLA is trash

Indus Valley Civilization​

The earliest traces of civilization in the Indian subcontinent are to be found in places along, or close, to the Indus river. Excavations first conducted in 1921-22, in the ancient cities of Harappa and Mohenjodaro, both now in Pakistan, pointed to a highly complex civilization that first developed some 4,500-5,000 years ago, and subsequent archaeological and historical research has now furnished us with a more detailed picture of the Indus Valley Civilization and its inhabitants. The Indus Valley people were most likely Dravidians, who may have been pushed down into south India when the Aryans, with their more advanced military technology, commenced their migrations to India around 2,000 BCE. Though the Indus Valley script remains undeciphered down to the present day, the numerous seals discovered during the excavations, as well as statuary and pottery, not to mention the ruins of numerous Indus Valley cities, have enabled scholars to construct a reasonably plausible account of the Indus Valley Civilization.

The full article can be found by on this link

Manas: History and Politics, Indus Valley

 

[justanobserver]

deleted....

 

[WAR-rior]

my only question is why is nonmuslim population around 5 % and why is hindu population around 1.5 %...when after partition it was around 20%...... ?????

now dont say hindus were impressed by islam and converted.....if that was da case then even 800 yrs of muslim rule in indian subcontinent had 80% of hindu population whereas latin america was COMPLETELY converted to christianity......

there is some reason for this sudden decrease of %......

 

[Jade]

More evidence of Indus valley people being Dravidian from Thapar, Romila.A History of India, vol I. England: Penguin, 1966 and Kosambi, D. D. The Culture and Civilization of Ancient India in Historical Outline. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1965

The twin cities of Harappa and Mohenjadaro, which are the two most famous of the Indian Valley civilization sites, are now in Pakistan; both seem to have been built fully planned, and have identical layouts. Neither changed till near the end of the period. Though there was a long period of gradual decay towards 1750 B.C., the actual end was sudden, and remains unexplained though the evidence suggests that the Indus may have changed its course and floods might have followed. Some cataclysmic event, in any case, appears to have struck Harappa, and the cities and town were emptied of their inhabitants. At Mohenjadaro, the city was burnt and the inhabitants killed, and people who were far less advanced than the inhabitants of the Indus Valley seem to have taken possession of the towns. Thus it is possible to argue that the way was paved for the Aryans by the victory of barbarism over an older and more advanced urban culture.

 

[Jade]

Some more evidence on mass migration of Aryans to Ganges River valley after destroying Indus civilization from Indus River Valley Civilizations

Between about 1500 and 1000 B.C., as the great cities of the Indus region crumbled into ruins, nomadic Aryan invaders from central Asia moved into the fertile Indus plains and pushed into the Ganges River valleys to the east. It took these unruly, warlike peoples many centuries to build a civilization that rivaled that of the Harappans. The Aryans concentrated on assaulting Harappan settlements and different Aryan tribal groups. As peoples who depended primarily on great herds of cattle to provide their subsistence, they had little use for the great irrigation works and advanced agricultural technology of the Indus valley peoples. Though they conserved some Harappan beliefs and symbols, the Aryan invaders did little to restore or replace the great cities and engineering systems of the peoples they had supplanted.

 

[KS]

@UnitedPak

My friend jade has done the honors of providing you the links.PLease go through them. I dont have anything else to add.

 

[Yeti]

Four-part series about the history of mathematics, presented by Oxford professor Marcus du Sautoy.

When ancient Greece fell into decline, mathematical progress stagnated as Europe entered the Dark Ages, but in the East mathematics reached new heights.

Du Sautoy visits China and explores how maths helped build imperial China and was at the heart of such amazing feats of engineering as the Great Wall.

In India, he discovers how the symbol for the number zero was invented and Indian mathematicians' understanding of the new concepts of infinity and negative numbers.In the Middle East, he looks at the invention of the new language of algebra and the spread of Eastern knowledge to the West through mathematicians such as Leonardo Fibonacci, creator of the Fibonacci Sequence.



BBC - BBC Four Programmes - The Story of Maths, The Genius of the East

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