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The murder of reason

I'm not a Muslim. To me, Islam is what its claimed adherents do, in context.

Corruption and violence are very popular among Muslims. This may be because of an over-riding credo that success in an endeavor is considered evidence of G-d's blessing, while failed attempts to contest with non-Muslims (including a Muslim who befriends or acts non-Muslim) are considered a test of faith. Yet I'm not sure that has to be the case, or that it's always been that way.

I've been reading an interesting book published in 1943 called, "The Forgotten Ally". The author is very Zionist. He lists many of Britain's clear attempts to undermine the Zionist project and theorizes that British decisions in the Middle East during the 1920-1940s period can be explained by the secret motivation of the British Colonial Office to eliminate added industrial competition to Britain by tricking the Jews out of their promised state and establishing a series of puppet Arab governments. The project involved fomenting murderous violence and limiting education - explicitly including the suppression of reason among the Arabs.

(Note that it was also a staple of colonial rule to set subject minorities at each others' throats, so the occupier could step in to "establish order". Legally, the Brits were not supposed to behave this way under the Mandate - but they seem to have considered the Mandate as a mere fig leaf for continued colonial rule. Even as late as 1947, the Brits tried to dissuade one of their intelligence officers, Audrey Eban, from supporting the independence of Jewish Palestine, tempting him with the prospect of becoming Britain's High Commissioner in Palestine. Eban refused and became one of Israel's leading diplomats, eventually rising to the post of foreign minister.)

Much more openly, British officials opposed the Palestine project by citing their worry about keeping the loyalty of their Indian troops - that is, the Muslims in the Anglo-Indian Army who would later be spun off into the Pakistani Army.

I wonder how much Pakistan's generals who served as officers in Anglo-Indian army picked up from their masters and sought to apply these lessons at home, don't you?
 
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Do they? From my point of view and my own research in Islam they preach shit which is a far cry from Islam itself! When you throw in fatwahs for own interest or coz you are paid to do so ...clearly shows how jahil you are coz that is what the Quran clearly warns people from selling their religion for a price...if these people are "knowledgeable" then they are more jahil than knowledgeable!




I assure you they do plenty of Ijtihad that is how we have people being murdered under laws and rules I had not heard of before! That is also where evidence suddenly is not enough to proof one innocent!


From my point of view they are a far cry from knowledgeable! mind you Jahil is the Arabic word which can be equated to ignorant of the lowest degree...and such people are the ones which cause chaos!

so all in all you are saying is that what these ulema learn in whole tenure is jahalat? because the very basis of their fatwas is fiqh.. isn't it? If you say that what they preach is not based on fiqh then you are making a huge claim and you substantiate it with evidence that such and such fatwa issued is against fiqh. Whether the fatwa is against somebody's very existence or not,,.. every aalim has a sound basis from Quran, Sunnah and fiqh which has been in practice for certain centuries. If you think that certain fatwa was wrong (morally, religiously or otherwise) it means you are denying those past practices as far as fiqh is concerned. Suddenly you become a reformist in Islam and conservative mindset stand against you.
 
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so all in all you are saying is that what these ulema learn in whole tenure is jahalat? because the very basis of their fatwas is fiqh.. isn't it?
these Ulema...most likely :agree:...As for fiqh...If you see these fiqhs...they all arose from Hadith all which are from the Prophet....I dont believe there is only 1 way to do something...As long as it comes within the basics of Islam....there can be 5-10 ways to do 1 thing hence many diff fiqhs each which was selected based on the area where it grew...and it evolved in that area based on the environment as ulema / scholar before did use to do ijtihad and they did formulate the best for a certain environment...of course all is from the Quran...but like I said environment is more important of course and of course whatever you think up should be in par with the quran and not contradicting it...But killing someone is contradicting the Quran....So if that is what they learned...then yes it is all jahalat coz that is what the Quran asks us not do!
If you say that what they preach is not based on fiqh then you are making a huge claim and you substantiate it with evidence that such and such fatwa issued is against fiqh. Whether the fatwa is against somebody's very existence or not,,.. every aalim has a sound basis from Quran, Sunnah and fiqh which has been in practice for certain centuries. If you think that certain fatwa was wrong (morally, religiously or otherwise) it means you are denying those past practices as far as fiqh is concerned. Suddenly you become a reformist in Islam and conservative mindset stand against you.


I wouldnt say it is not based on fiqh but I will say that some fiqhs actually evolved based on the surrounding conditions ...yes I can back this claim...through articles from those who actually studied the history of how Shariah or fiqh evolved...

So if something evolved based on how people lived in Africa and you want implement that in say USA...tell me how can that make sense esp since the culture, practices and daily life differs significantly...

I dont know if these people are learned....for if they were learned they would have placed all possibilities up front and chosen the best example not stick to one that spins in their head!

As for every aalim having a sound basis...well, that can be debated because ordering killing and misquoting the Quran out of context already shows how sound their basis is!
 
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Of course the Arba'a Aimma can be wrong. But are you qualified enough to say that? Do you have the credentials to counter their arguments? Do you have their level of qualification? If you do, or anyone does, then please bring forth the arguments. what you are doing here is asking Muslims to change their religion! That is not the topic of this thread. You are talking about interpreting fiqh. And you have a limit of 1000 years. Why not 1200 years? The aimma arbaá were 1200 years ago, not a 1000 years ago. This shows you do not know about Islamic history.

You are senselessly, deliberately linking the killing, murder today to fiqh of the Arba'a Aimma, without any basis, any evidence, just ad hominem false arguments flying in the air,




I am assuming you follow Ghamidi.

Ghamidi is a reformist. He wants to reform Islam. Make it fit to modern society. I want to ask Mr Ghamidi. What are your credentials? Who is your teacher? And what are his credentials? Where did Mr Ghamidi study from?

The reason for asking these questions about Mr Ghamidi and calling him a reformist Pakistani, is that having seen him on Geo TV and listened to his arguments, I can gather that he certainly wants to reform Islam, but his arguments are utter jahalat.

He does not even understand basic usool of hadith science. He does not even know basic Arabic!

I cannot call Ghamidi an alim. He is ignorant about Islamic sciences.

the first line of your response says it all. You said of course they can be wrong and then you started flinging sundry questions at my head which must have been answered by you at first place. My answer is that only Allah and His Rasool (PBUH) is not wrong. Every other person interpretation of religion, his drawing of inference can be wrong and there are ikhtalafat, difference of opinions between them as well. So one doesn't need to be aalim from a university to claim that.

Secondly you are again assuming something about me, which I already said is not polite and you should focus on idea. You claim Ghamidi as reformists and raise questions on his qualification. I would just say that he got his education from aalims like Maulana Maududi etc.I am not Ghamidi's spokesperson here but one thing i know that if you have to carry his research work on religion on your back for sure you will break your backbone. So Please avoid baseless claims.

Brother, i dont think @MM_Haider is making any sense, because all he is doing is senseless rants. Yes, the islam these so called pretentious mullahs teach is not Islam. Yes. they certainly do plenty of ijtihad. The basis of jamat e islami is on ijtihad. That is the reason why Mr Maududi, Sayyid Qutub,, Rashid Rida, formed the new reformist organization about a century ago called "jamat e islami" or as it is known in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood.

Any evidence? Just a taster. If you go to the Jamat e Islami website in the West, " islamonline.net" , you will be introduced to a new category of fiqh they have introduced for Muslims in the west. They formed this new body of knowledge based on ijtihad.
Please avoid using the word 'rant'. It is rude. The basis of JI is the techings of Maududi who was in favour of a fascist state which expands by any mean (including killing and war). Today the very basis of existence Taliban is that.
 
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these Ulema...most likely :agreed:...As for fiqh...If you see these fiqhs...they all arose from Hadith all which are from the Prophet....I dont believe there is only 1 way to do something...As long as it comes within the basics of Islam....there can be 5-10 ways to do 1 thing hence many diff fiqhs each which was selected based on the area where it grew...and it evolved in that area based on the environment as ulema / scholar before did use to do ijtihad and they did formulate the best for a certain environment...of course all is from the Quran...but like I said environment is more important of course and of course whatever you think up should be in par with the quran and not contradicting it...But killing someone is contradicting the Quran....So if that is what they learned...then yes it is all jahalat coz that is what the Quran asks us not do!



I wouldnt say it is not based on fiqh but I will say that some fiqhs actually evolved based on the surrounding conditions ...yes I can back this claim...through articles from those who actually studied the history of how Shariah or fiqh evolved...

So if something evolved based on how people lived in Africa and you want implement that in say USA...tell me how can that make sense esp since the culture, practices and daily life differs significantly...

I dont know if these people are learned....for if they were learned they would have placed all possibilities up front and chosen the best example not stick to one that spins in their head!

As for every aalim having a sound basis...well, that can be debated because ordering killing and misquoting the Quran out of context already shows how sound their basis is!

I don't want to go into debate here on this forum on this topic. May be we can discuss this in private how Ulema karaam consider killing of somebody, which you think is wrong, based on Quran, Sunnah and Fiqh. because you are a good hearted person and your conscious level has been raised than that of, let's say, 1000 years ago so you are against it.

you little reformist ... :enjoy:
 
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I don't want to go into debate here on this forum on this topic. May be we can discuss this in private how Ulema karaam consider killing of somebody, which you think is wrong, based on Quran, Sunnah and Fiqh. because you are a good hearted person and your conscious level has been raised than that of, let's say, 1000 years ago so you are against it.

you little reformist ... :enjoy:
Or maybe I bothered reading the Quran with understanding before jumping on some hadith which mind you do contradict each other and some which can be pulled out of context same goes with the verses ;)
 
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Or maybe I bothered reading the Quran with understanding before jumping on some hadith which mind you do contradict each other and some which can be pulled out of context same goes with the verses ;)

Don't say this here, you may be labeled as munkar e hadith or pervaizee.. just saying!
 
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Don't say this here, you may be labeled as munkar e hadith or pervaizee.. just saying!
I aint afraid...You see one is only afraid when one doesnt have enough knowledge...

I am calm and cool because I know if someone challenges me...I have my research to back my claims....They can call me whatever they want....wont change who I am or what I stand up for...Name calling is typical of those who cant stand up to what they suggest esp when questioned...
 
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I aint afraid...You see one is only afraid when one doesnt have enough knowledge...

I am calm and cool because I know if someone challenges me...I have my research to back my claims....They can call me whatever they want....wont change who I am or what I stand up for...Name calling is typical of those who cant stand up to what they suggest esp when questioned...

Agreed bro! Just remain safe.
 
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I'm not a Muslim. To me, Islam is what its claimed adherents do, in context.
That is really sad...so if someone is speaking broken English and claims to know all of English will you think English as a language is soo broken and you were thought wrong? :unsure:


Corruption and violence are very popular among Muslims. This may be because of an over-riding credo that success in an endeavor is considered evidence of G-d's blessing, while failed attempts to contest with non-Muslims (including a Muslim who befriends or acts non-Muslim) are considered a test of faith. Yet I'm not sure that has to be the case, or that it's always been that way.
Sorry but I didnt really get what you meant...


I've been reading an interesting book published in 1943 called, "The Forgotten Ally". The author is very Zionist. He lists many of Britain's clear attempts to undermine the Zionist project and theorizes that British decisions in the Middle East during the 1920-1940s period can be explained by the secret motivation of the British Colonial Office to eliminate added industrial competition to Britain by tricking the Jews out of their promised state and establishing a series of puppet Arab governments. The project involved fomenting murderous violence and limiting education - explicitly including the suppression of reason among the Arabs.
But didnt Britain back you when you guys wanted a Jewish state?
(Note that it was also a staple of colonial rule to set subject minorities at each others' throats, so the occupier could step in to "establish order". Legally, the Brits were not supposed to behave this way under the Mandate - but they seem to have considered the Mandate as a mere fig leaf for continued colonial rule. Even as late as 1947, the Brits tried to dissuade one of their intelligence officers, Audrey Eban, from supporting the independence of Jewish Palestine, tempting him with the prospect of becoming Britain's High Commissioner in Palestine. Eban refused and became one of Israel's leading diplomats, eventually rising to the post of foreign minister.)

Much more openly, British officials opposed the Palestine project by citing their worry about keeping the loyalty of their Indian troops - that is, the Muslims in the Anglo-Indian Army who would later be spun off into the Pakistani Army.

I wonder how much Pakistan's generals who served as officers in Anglo-Indian army picked up from their masters and sought to apply these lessons at home, don't you?
I agree Britain used to do these stupid tricks to come back in the scenario as the resolver of problems for a price/ benefit...

However I always thoguht the British backed Israel...if not from the start at least enough to form the state..

As for the last para...I am sure you could have chosen better words ...but seeing as you are making this thread into an Israeli one which it is not....I guess you had to give the low hit to be noticed, yes?
 
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That is really sad...so if someone is speaking broken English and claims to know all of English will you think English as a language is soo broken and you were thought wrong? :unsure:
If other English speakers didn't correct him and enforce correct grammar I would.

But didnt Britain back you when you guys wanted a Jewish state?
British Judeophiles and anti-Semites combined forces in WWI because British victory in the war was the most important thing and promoting Zionism politically was seen as sucking support from Germany, Turkey, and the Bolsheviks.

However I always thoguht the British backed Israel...if not from the start at least enough to form the state..
Not really. The League of Nations Mandate encouraged Jews to "closely settle" Palestine. The Brits started promoting Arab-Jewish violence almost immediately, shut down organizations and newspapers devoted to promoting Arab-Jewish amity, limited Jewish immigration, and allowed murder-promoting Arab officials and organizations full freedom of travel and funding until the day Britain went to war with Germany. Even before that, the Brits hacked off 70% of the Mandate territory and presented it to their puppet as a Kingdom (and his first deed was to kick the Jews out and seize their property.)

As for the last para...I am sure you could have chosen better words ...
To a hammer everything looks like a nail. That's not a "low hit" but a different perspective. It's up to the reader to determine its relevance.
 
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If other English speakers didn't correct him and enforce correct grammar I would.
:rofl: grammar nazi!

British Judeophiles and anti-Semites combined forces in WWI because British victory in the war was the most important thing and promoting Zionism politically was seen as sucking support from Germany, Turkey, and the Bolsheviks.
No more WW now....but still dont see Britain pulling at its hair after you guys
Not really. The League of Nations Mandate encouraged Jews to "closely settle" Palestine. The Brits started promoting Arab-Jewish violence almost immediately, shut down organizations and newspapers devoted to promoting Arab-Jewish amity, limited Jewish immigration, and allowed murder-promoting Arab officials and organizations full freedom of travel and funding until the day Britain went to war with Germany. Even before that, the Brits hacked off 70% of the Mandate territory and presented it to their puppet as a Kingdom (and his first deed was to kick the Jews out and seize their property.)
The Jews at least in Israel are very advanced people...they have awesome weapons and great research so whats with the blame game? It is true alot of shit happened during WW and post WW....however, without proper backings pointing fingers is again a political passtime
To a hammer everything looks like a nail. That's not a "low hit" but a different perspective. It's up to the reader to determine its relevance.
How safe is that?
 
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are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

Lame bakwas Mullahs lead the charge against Ahmadis, they always have.
 
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