The murder of reason

[Multani]

i wish your highness could have taken time from his busy schedule to at least read the whole post instead of reading few lines and drawing inference. I have tried to respond to each of your point with examples while you are just claiming without giving any reference. come on!!!

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

What sort of a question is that???











And no he isnt.. but so what if he is one?

 

[SHAMK9]

on PDF, there are lots of Pakistanis who hate the "mullah" in general. It stems from the jahalat of the "mullas", pretenders or qualified. But as the above piece shows, most of these mullas are not men of character but have agendas and motives.

What is lacking is the open forum for debate in many circles in Pakistan. That is the reason why you see liberal Pakistanis posting threads on PDF of life threatening stories of Pakistanis with similar values back home. That they live under the bullet and are coerced to behave the way against what their heart tells hem to do.

This is not Islam. In this religion, dialogue and debate is the means to settle issues, not oppression. There is no compulsion in religion. People do not realize but there is a lot in common between Islamic Usool and democracy, human rights, freedom of speech, and thought.

Something must be done about the mockery that is being made out of these blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Corruption sways, and misuse and injustice is rampant. If you kill one innocent man, its like you killed all of humanity.

As usual, "pakistani liberals" (they dont exist, just because one hates a mullah doesnt make him a liberal) are blamed for everything while mad mullahs bomb the sh*t out of the country.

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

With comments like that, how do you expect "liberal pakistanis" to react?

 

[MM_Haider]

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

now you are resorting to ad hominem... focus on idea and not personality. you keep saying (just saying) that corrupt politicians use Mullah, please enlighten me in this regard as the way i see things (i gave examples already) it is otherwise!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I just read a few sentences of the above reply, and it seems like typical mullah bashing and propaganda. what I want to tell you that since there are more and more Pakistanis like you who hate mullahs, this is evidence that he country is going more "liberal".

I saw a few names in your post of deobandi wahabis and jamati wahabis like fazlul rahman, sami ul haq, Ibrahim, munawwar, saeed, Abdul Aziz. They are Pakistanis who have the right to express their views just like you have the right.

But once again, they are not the power in Pakistan. Most religious Pakistanis (who are Sufis) are against them. And on top of that you have more and more Pakistanis who are liberal minded. But what about the BIG ELEPHANT in the room? [ the corrupt politician, feudal lords in the country? ] They hate both mullahs and liberals. They use mullahs and hunt down honest liberals like Mr Rashid who was murdered for a reason!

Youve gotta be shittin ....





I stopped readin abt tht shit..

 

[Pakistanisage]

Whatever our Politics may be , I am against murder of people. Even People we don't agree with have a right to Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness. I never really cared for Salman Taseer and detested his Politics but I do not support his Murder. It pains me to see that his Murderer is still alive. It saddens me to see my country being turned into a " Killing Field " in the name of Religion, Patriotism, Politics etc.

We have stopped being civilized people and turned into Barbarians. We have no tolerance for each others point of view. This Intolerance and Extremism is destroying the very Fabric of our Society.

 

[Dubious]

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

I think you should have taken a politer approach...

I would like to agree with you, but the fact that several prominent "liberal" personalities have been systematically assassinated over the last few years, makes me think otherwise. I mean, even the article is about such personality. Or are you referring to something else?

There is being irresponsible in the name of freedom of speech and then there is liberal people and thinking and then there is sold for money...You can catogorize as you wish and yes I do agree that several have been assassinated but I do not fail to see that several madrassah and Masjids too have been attacked! Meaning its is not just liberals or just crazy religious people who are being killed but merely those who are literally un involved...A man walking on the street, one who went to pray, a kid in a school reading Quran, a woman in the market and so on are being killed more often than anyother category!

 

[Dubious]

Firstly, I would like to draw the attention to a few points in the article:

ethics of the land have been skewed to restrict thought and inquiry

Ethics def have been skewed and it is not just the Mullah people....but everyother person thinks that they cant live without lying, they cant work without bribery and they def cant purchase something without adding the word fraud. People just have too much negative energy...Too much to bring any good!

Lets see what the thread really was supposed to be about:

Rehman was a beacon of hope for the many who could not afford or obtain counsel for one reason or the other.

He was more of a social worker than a liberal...not sure how the whole thread became about liberals!

struggle to ensure rights for peasants and bonded labourers

What the article points at is the law rather than the liberals or Mullahs themselves:

“It is something larger, harming the whole social fabric and the root of the issue is this law which is being misused on a large scale. The state will have to deal with it,” argues Jamal.

Not just the state...everyone is suffering from what some people refuse to do ...Educate! Enlighten! Many dont even know their rights and others who do know cant even demand it! Again nothing to do with Liberalism! More to do with Jahalat on large scale and esp with jahal leaders you shouldnt expect people to do wonders!

Another problem:

“Many of his colleagues were not happy with him and he was also a victim of peer politics in his department.

hunting Pakistan is the negative competition....Some will go to grave lengths to push the other down just out of jealousy or dirty competition....such people should be fired almost immediately! Again nothing to do with being liberal or Mullah...Just dead ethics!

hinting at the animosity which resulted in a right-wing religious group at the university working against him.

Such things should not be allowed in Uni! Unfortunately many political parties have their small gunday settled in every other uni in Pakistan!

“He became a victim of politics at the department. New vacancies were going to open at the BZU English Department, and a group of right-wing students with help from those who did not want to see Junaid in the department, implicated him in the case,”

Death of work ethics and moral values!

“Most of blasphemy accused are implicated in fake cases. Most of the times, there are other ulterior motives behind such cases.

Hence my suggestion is clean out the court first! Because that is where the cases go and they drag it long enough to get the victim killed

Next sector to be cleaned out is the police depts! Stupid cases should not be dealth with instead hand out a fine to bastard throwing accusations! This can only be done if there is a time period set like 1 Day after FIR one should decide whether to throw the case out or proceed! And also no political party should be able to purchase the law! That is when things go skewed!

“The root of the issue is the law which is misused and abused to implicate people. This practice should be stopped, otherwise, society will have to pay a heavy price for it though we have already paid a heavy price so far,” she says.

Yes it is the society that is suffering not the liberals or the dirty Mullahs

when a pakistani shares his liberal views on internet social network.. he is labeled as liberal fascist (a termed coined by Hmid Mir and Ironically only liberal fascists stood by him when he needed somebody to) or desi liberals... like being liberal is only trait of goras..

We as a nation are going more and more conservative day by day! reason or logic doesn't matter at all in Pakistan!.. we have very simple solution of everything that is 'terror' or 'lynching' or 'killing' which emanates from conservative mindset! We are not willing to give any room to other to listen to him, understand him and come to a point! We have already ready made solution of everything whether it is applicable in today's world or not.. Javed Choudhry in his column said it rightly that in Pakistan, nothing is more powerful than Mullah...and this is what Pakistan has been exporting, propagating and professing since 1979.. mullahism!!

Anyway.. i strongly demand that state must act and find the killers of Rashid Rehman without any delay and give them due punishment.. secondly Junaid Hafeez must be provided with adequate security!..

Well, that which you mentioned "terror" "lynching" or "killing" is not the mindset of a conservative society but that of a jahil society...ignorant society!

You would be surprised but a conservative society does not swing that way.

As for no one willing to give room to listen and understand...that goes hand in hand with jahil people...Had they been conservative they would have at least "pretended" to listen but the jahil is more dangerous esp when the law (arbitrary solutions) is in their hands they dont need to listen....

As for nothing is more powerful than the Mullah...if you mean the jahil who keeps issueing a fatwah over ridiculous stuff but has failed to issue a fatwah for the rights of every child to education and health care then I agree with you totally!

As for exporting and propagating...I am not so sure because we (the locals the society) are not really rearing the crap that somehow grew in our backyard but we for sure ignored it long enough to explode in our face!

 

[MM_Haider]

Well, that which you mentioned "terror" "lynching" or "killing" is not the mindset of a conservative society but that of a jahil society...ignorant society!
You would be surprised but a conservative society does not swing that way.
As for no one willing to give room to listen and understand...that goes hand in hand with jahil people...Had they been conservative they would have at least "pretended" to listen but the jahil is more dangerous esp when the law (arbitrary solutions) is in their hands they dont need to listen....
As for nothing is more powerful than the Mullah...if you mean the jahil who keeps issueing a fatwah over ridiculous stuff but has failed to issue a fatwah for the rights of every child to education and health care then I agree with you totally!
As for exporting and propagating...I am not so sure because we (the locals the society) are not really rearing the crap that somehow grew in our backyard but we for sure ignored it long enough to explode in our face!

In my opinion a conservative person is ignorant, insofar as modern world and its requirements are concerned! What do you think all the Mullahs who issue fatwas are ignorant or jahil? no .. they are not! they have high qualification.. they have knowledge of Fiqh, Hadith, Quran, Tafseer, Logic, philosophy and all such subjects which are required by federal board to be an aalim. The only issue is that they don't want to change the conservative thoughts. They are not willing to do Ijtihad. They are not willing to admit that Arba'a Aimm'a karam can be wrong also. They just want to interpret the fiqh as it was done around 1000 years ago. The result is chaos, murder of reason, killing in the name of God and exile for aalims like Ghamidi to other countries.

Again, they are not jahil or ignorant. They are quite knowledgeable.

 

[Pakistani E]

are you an ahmadi? the game against them in Pakistan is not run by the mullah. it is run by the corrupt politician who uses the mullah.

Lol. This is the problem with Pakistan. You can't have a civilised discussion without getting religion involved.

I think you should have taken a politer approach...

There is being irresponsible in the name of freedom of speech and then there is liberal people and thinking and then there is sold for money...You can catogorize as you wish and yes I do agree that several have been assassinated but I do not fail to see that several madrassah and Masjids too have been attacked! Meaning its is not just liberals or just crazy religious people who are being killed but merely those who are literally un involved...A man walking on the street, one who went to pray, a kid in a school reading Quran, a woman in the market and so on are being killed more often than anyother category!

Yes, I agree to a certain extent. But the fact is, a liberal hasn't strapped a bomb to himself and blown himself up yet. Neither have liberals issued edicts of kufr or wajb qatl at people who disagree with their point of view. Killing is senseless, I agree. But what led to these killings? It's intolerance. We can't tolerate people with differing views to each other. And look up the history of Pakistan, the biggest peddlers of intolerance are, unfortunately the fundamentalists, supported by politicians. The moment our country gave in to these people, we have been overwhelmed with intolerance and bigotry. It all started with religion and sectarian intolerance, now its gone to ethnicity, class etc. If the state had not colluded with intolerant bigots, we would be so much better off.

 

[Dubious]

What do you think all the Mullahs who issue fatwas are ignorant or jahil? no .. they are not! they have high qualification.. they have knowledge of Fiqh, Hadith, Quran, Tafseer, Logic, philosophy and all such subjects which are required by federal board to be an aalim.

Do they? From my point of view and my own research in Islam they preach shit which is a far cry from Islam itself! When you throw in fatwahs for own interest or coz you are paid to do so ...clearly shows how jahil you are coz that is what the Quran clearly warns people from selling their religion for a price...if these people are "knowledgeable" then they are more jahil than knowledgeable!

The only issue is that they don't want to change the conservative thoughts. They are not willing to do Ijtihad. They are not willing to admit that Arba'a Aimm'a karam can be wrong also. They just want to interpret the fiqh as it was done around 1000 years ago. The result is chaos, murder of reason, killing in the name of God and exile for aalims like Ghamidi to other countries.
Again, they are not jahil or ignorant. They are quite knowledgeable.

I assure you they do plenty of Ijtihad that is how we have people being murdered under laws and rules I had not heard of before! That is also where evidence suddenly is not enough to proof one innocent!


From my point of view they are a far cry from knowledgeable! mind you Jahil is the Arabic word which can be equated to ignorant of the lowest degree...and such people are the ones which cause chaos!

 

[Multani]

In my opinion a conservative person is ignorant, insofar as modern world and its requirements are concerned! What do you think all the Mullahs who issue fatwas are ignorant or jahil? no .. they are not! they have high qualification.. they have knowledge of Fiqh, Hadith, Quran, Tafseer, Logic, philosophy and all such subjects which are required by federal board to be an aalim. The only issue is that they don't want to change the conservative thoughts. They are not willing to do Ijtihad. They are not willing to admit that Arba'a Aimm'a karam can be wrong also. They just want to interpret the fiqh as it was done around 1000 years ago. The result is chaos, murder of reason, killing in the name of God and exile for aalims like Ghamidi to other countries.

Again, they are not jahil or ignorant. They are quite knowledgeable.

Of course the Arba'a Aimma can be wrong. But are you qualified enough to say that? Do you have the credentials to counter their arguments? Do you have their level of qualification? If you do, or anyone does, then please bring forth the arguments. what you are doing here is asking Muslims to change their religion! That is not the topic of this thread. You are talking about interpreting fiqh. And you have a limit of 1000 years. Why not 1200 years? The aimma arbaá were 1200 years ago, not a 1000 years ago. This shows you do not know about Islamic history.

You are senselessly, deliberately linking the killing, murder today to fiqh of the Arba'a Aimma, without any basis, any evidence, just ad hominem false arguments flying in the air,

In my opinion a conservative person is ignorant, insofar as modern world and its requirements are concerned! What do you think all the Mullahs who issue fatwas are ignorant or jahil? no .. they are not! they have high qualification.. they have knowledge of Fiqh, Hadith, Quran, Tafseer, Logic, philosophy and all such subjects which are required by federal board to be an aalim. The only issue is that they don't want to change the conservative thoughts. They are not willing to do Ijtihad. They are not willing to admit that Arba'a Aimm'a karam can be wrong also. They just want to interpret the fiqh as it was done around 1000 years ago. The result is chaos, murder of reason, killing in the name of God and exile for aalims like Ghamidi to other countries.

Again, they are not jahil or ignorant. They are quite knowledgeable.

I am assuming you follow Ghamidi.

Ghamidi is a reformist. He wants to reform Islam. Make it fit to modern society. I want to ask Mr Ghamidi. What are your credentials? Who is your teacher? And what are his credentials? Where did Mr Ghamidi study from?

The reason for asking these questions about Mr Ghamidi and calling him a reformist Pakistani, is that having seen him on Geo TV and listened to his arguments, I can gather that he certainly wants to reform Islam, but his arguments are utter jahalat.

He does not even understand basic usool of hadith science. He does not even know basic Arabic!

I cannot call Ghamidi an alim. He is ignorant about Islamic sciences.

 

[Multani]

Youve gotta be shittin ....





I stopped readin abt tht shit..

well, in open discussion, all Pakistanis have the right to express their opinion. It is a platform to show the public about the jahalat of these pretentious mullahs.

As usual, "pakistani liberals" (they dont exist, just because one hates a mullah doesnt make him a liberal) are blamed for everything while mad mullahs bomb the sh*t out of the country.


With comments like that, how do you expect "liberal pakistanis" to react?

It is corrupt politicians and their partners, the pretentious mullahs, who bomb the shit out of some parts of the country. Pakistanis who espouse "liberalism" do exist, and they are right here on PDF, and they are increasing daily east and west. What I want to understand is, what liberalism are they talking about in the context of Pakistan and the culture here which is 1200 years old and multi-faceted.

This article about two personalities from South Punjab, gives one idea what Pakistani liberalism is about. Is it about human rights? That's the idea I got from Mr Rashid who was killed by corrupt politicians because he was a danger to them.

On the other hand, there is an individual here @MM_Haider , who has started a discussion about reforming Islam. That is a different idea, but I don't think the two personalities in the OP's piece above ever verged ahead in that area.

 

[Multani]

Do they? From my point of view and my own research in Islam they preach shit which is a far cry from Islam itself! When you throw in fatwahs for own interest or coz you are paid to do so ...clearly shows how jahil you are coz that is what the Quran clearly warns people from selling their religion for a price...if these people are "knowledgeable" then they are more jahil than knowledgeable!




I assure you they do plenty of Ijtihad that is how we have people being murdered under laws and rules I had not heard of before! That is also where evidence suddenly is not enough to proof one innocent!


From my point of view they are a far cry from knowledgeable! mind you Jahil is the Arabic word which can be equated to ignorant of the lowest degree...and such people are the ones which cause chaos!

Brother, i dont think @MM_Haider is making any sense, because all he is doing is senseless rants. Yes, the islam these so called pretentious mullahs teach is not Islam. Yes. they certainly do plenty of ijtihad. The basis of jamat e islami is on ijtihad. That is the reason why Mr Maududi, Sayyid Qutub,, Rashid Rida, formed the new reformist organization about a century ago called "jamat e islami" or as it is known in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood.

Any evidence? Just a taster. If you go to the Jamat e Islami website in the West, " islamonline.net" , you will be introduced to a new category of fiqh they have introduced for Muslims in the west. They formed this new body of knowledge based on ijtihad.

 

[Dubious]

Brother, i dont think @MM_Haider is making any sense, because all he is doing is senseless rants. Yes, the islam these so called pretentious mullahs teach is not Islam. Yes. they certainly do plenty of ijtihad. The basis of jamat e islami is on ijtihad. That is the reason why Mr Maududi, Sayyid Qutub,, Rashid Rida, formed the new reformist organization about a century ago called "jamat e islami" or as it is known in Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood.

Any evidence? Just a taster. If you go to the Jamat e Islami website in the West, " islamonline.net" , you will be introduced to a new category of fiqh they have introduced for Muslims in the west. They formed this new body of knowledge based on ijtihad.

My concern is they do ijtihad ...people who are not properly trained and do ijtihad and then we get woman molvis leading Friday prayers

When people start introducing crap in the name of Islam and carry the liberal flag...that is when worry comes in...that is not being liberal it is being stupid....

However I do agree to a certain extent that those in Pakistan shouldnt be allowed to do ijtihad ....those who dont know the basics shouldnt dwell into matters more complex than their knowledge...

This leads to stupid implementations of laws like blasphemy law for raped victims when clearly in Quran it is for those who accuse women and others that follow all taken out of context and screwed up ...