The Khalistan Diaries

[ranveer]

No ranveer, that wasnt for you, that comment of Swati's was for the thread starter. I think you are on handset.

no yaar,,,another internet warrior with no work in office today...and prbbly some ppl in the starting pages turned me on..

 

[ranveer]

I agree. But my intention was not on arguing whether reservation itself was good or bad but just wanted to show you that though the Sikhs as a religion are counted as minorities separate from Hindus, they also enjoy the benefits of reservation.

yaar, then what abt the constitution,,,is it not supposed to be the holy grail....wont all these be after that and not before that..

 

[KS]

bhai saab jee,,i am sorry if am sounding naive...census form is something i dont remember on personally ticking any religion...yeh but what i know of census is that i would always say sikh as a religion and there is no option that u tick where it is mentioned hindu,islam, sikh , christian, etc...but still i would always say that the constitution is above the census form....
agree this is endless debate... but then some posters in the beginning of this thread have been rather casual on sikhs...

Dude the Article 25 which you quote itself says in the foot note that the word "Hindu" is hereby used to denote all the four Indic religions - Hinduism,Sikhism,Jainism and Buddhism.

It was just a convenient practise as all the four religions' marriage ceremonies are similar to an extent and none of them had already exisiting codified laws.

I cant believe I am arguing for a Marriage law, but if it given you any amount of solace, note that I am in support of it if the Sikhs demand it.

yaar, then what abt the constitution,,,is it not supposed to be the holy grail....wont all these be after that and not before that..

Forgive me. I'm not interested in this debate based on a marriage law anymore. I have to the best of my abilities tried to explain to you that this was just for convenience sake and with no extra meaning as the four religions have some similarities in their marriage rituals. But you cling on to that one act and think Sikhism is in danger.

no yaar,,,another internet warrior with no work in office today...and prbbly some ppl in the starting pages turned me on..

Who turned you on ?

Not one Indian has said anything bad about Sikhs here.

 

[ranveer]

Rename it as Sikh marriage Act. We don't have any problem..!

Thanx atleast i would have one vote...

 

[Nalwa]

bhai saab jee,,i am sorry if am sounding naive...census form is something i dont remember on personally ticking any religion...yeh but what i know of census is that i would always say sikh as a religion and there is no option that u tick where it is mentioned hindu,islam, sikh , christian, etc...but still i would always say that the constitution is above the census form....
agree this is endless debate... but then some posters in the beginning of this thread have been rather casual on sikhs...

You take a vote here and I am sure all non-Sikh Indians here would agree to the Sikh Marriage act or are at least open to a debate on it. The casual approach to Sikhism is but a trait of the very few who are ill-informed.

I think we need to work within our community. I dont remember any Sikh politician or SGPC jathedar taking out a rally in demand for the act. Lets build enough mass support around it within the Sikh community and then we can blame the constitution.

 

[KS]

You take a vote here and I am sure all non-Sikh Indians here would agree to the Sikh Marriage act or are at least open to a debate on it.

Actually I dont get.

Is there anything in the Act that is actually opposite to teachings of Sikhs, offensive words etc that you guys want another Act or is it just the name ?

 

[Nalwa]

Actually I dont get.

Is there anything in the Act that is actually opposite to teachings of Sikhs, offensive words etc that you guys want another Act or is it just the name ?

Its just the name actually, and the constitutional recognition that comes with it. You see, the demand has much deeper roots. If you were to analyze the Sikh psychic, its very fearful for the loss of identity (ill-founded you might say). After all, the community have fought wars and lost lives (right uptill the modern age), so there seems to be an ever present danger to its existence. It is this psychic that is affected by the lack of a Sikh-marriage act.

Our festivities and religious processions that include a display of martial prowess (you must have seen pics of warrior Nihang Sikhs practicing martial arts during processions) alludes in a way to this very sentiment of fight against the dangers to the religion. I might be reading too much into it, but its just my psycho-analysis as a Sikh.

 

[KS]

Its just the name actually, and the constitutional recognition that comes with it. You see, the demand has much deeper roots. If you were to analyze the Sikh psychic, its very fearful for the loss of identity (ill-founded you might say). After all, the community have fought wars and lost lives (right uptill the modern age), so there seems to be an ever present danger to its existence. It is this psychic that is affected by the lack of a Sikh-marriage act.

Our festivities and religious processions that include a display of martial prowess (you must have seen pics of warrior Nihang Sikhs practicing martial arts during processions) alludes in a way to this very sentiment of fight against the dangers to the religion. I might be reading too much into it, but its just my psycho-analysis as a Sikh.

Then change it to Sikh Marriage Act or Punjab Marriage Act for all I care.

I am more worried about the girl I'm getting married to than the name of the Act under which I'm marrying

 

[ranveer]

Dude the Article 25 which you quote itself says in the foot note that the word "Hindu" is hereby used to denote all the four Indic religions - Hinduism,Sikhism,Jainism and Buddhism.

I dont know abt where the term Indic and Abrahamic religion are coined from...didnt see that in constitution

The Article 25 as below

"Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion -

(1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion.

(2) Nothing in this article shall affect the operation of any existing law or prevent the State from making any law -

(a) regulating or restricting any economic, political or other secular activity which may be associated with religious practice;

(b) providing for social welfare and reform or the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus.

Explanation I – The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion.

Explanation II – In sub-Clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly."




Explanations I and II are not even remotely connected with Clause 2b. The fact is that both Explanations I and II urgently call for explanation of their own. Explanation I acknowledges the existence of the Sikh religion. Moreover, Explanation II is notoriously flawed. Its intent is obvious: the individual members of Sikh, Jain, and Buddhist religions will be referred to as Hindus, and Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism are to be considered merely sects of Hinduism. Therefore, the state can interfere with their religious institutions as it sees fit, under the guise of procuring "social reforms.

It was just a convenient practise as all the four religions' marriage ceremonies are similar to an extent and none of them had already exisiting codified laws.

I cant believe I am arguing for a Marriage law, but if it given you any amount of solace, note that I am in support of it if the Sikhs demand it.



Forgive me. I'm not interested in this debate based on a marriage law anymore. I have to the best of my abilities tried to explain to you that this was just for convenience sake and with no extra meaning as the four religions have some similarities in their marriage rituals. But you cling on to that one act and think Sikhism is in danger.

Sir, all four religions have very different rituals,, atleast for Sikhs even for Jains and buddhists i can say its very different and its very well coded by the SGPC for sikhs...I dont think it if for simplicity otherwise our rules and regulations would have been very simple and our tax payers money would have been saved to a lot of extent..
sry for getting u in this debate but yeh i would have not liked to debate on a marraige law much on it either....

 

[ranveer]

You take a vote here and I am sure all non-Sikh Indians here would agree to the Sikh Marriage act or are at least open to a debate on it. The casual approach to Sikhism is but a trait of the very few who are ill-informed.

I think we need to work within our community. I dont remember any Sikh politician or SGPC jathedar taking out a rally in demand for the act. Lets build enough mass support around it within the Sikh community and then we can blame the constitution.

bhai sab jee,,, agree with u 100%,,,fault lies within..

 

[KS]

@Ranveer ;

Arey bhai see this in your article itself ;

Explanation I – The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion. - Is this not the recognition you are asking ?

Explanation II – In sub-Clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jains or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly." - All four are generally refered to as Hindus for convenience sake.


BTW read my reply to Nalwa in the previous post:

I'm a Hindu and I dont care whether the Constitution recognizes me or not. My Faith is there to stay.

 

[ranveer]

@Ranveer ;

Arey bhai see this in your article itself ;

Explanation I – The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion. - Is this not the recognition you are asking ?

Explanation II – In sub-Clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jains or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly." -

All four are generally refered to as Hindus for convenience sake.????[/COLOR
]sir do u think that the constitution of india was made with convinience sake in 3 yrs and then the amendments...

Explanations I and II are not even remotely connected with Clause 2b. The fact is that both Explanations I and II urgently call for explanation of their own. Explanation I acknowledges the existence of the Sikh religion. Moreover, Explanation II is notoriously flawed. Its intent is obvious: the individual members of Sikh, Jain, and Buddhist religions will be referred to as Hindus, and Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism are to be considered merely sects of Hinduism.

BTW read my reply to Nalwa in the previous post:

I'm a Hindu and I dont care whether the Constitution recognizes me or not. My Faith is there to stay.

Sir, then why bother,,,faith is here to stay,,, who gives damn to the constitution ,,,,then u start calling urself Sikh or Muslim from today...it doesnt matter...sry i might sound a bit of hardcore but its the other side of the coin and take it on urself and see....

 

[KS]

Explanations I and II are not even remotely connected with Clause 2b. The fact is that both Explanations I and II urgently call for explanation of their own. Explanation I acknowledges the existence of the Sikh religion. Moreover, Explanation II is notoriously flawed. Its intent is obvious: the individual members of Sikh, Jain, and Buddhist religions will be referred to as Hindus, and Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism are to be considered merely sects of Hinduism.

Good that you are satisfied with Explanation I

Explanation II as it is given has no malafide intention to make Sikhism as a sect of Hinduism and is just a reference of convenience because if that was the intention the word "Sikh Religion" in Explanation I would have been omitted.

Sir, then why bother,,,faith is here to stay,,, who gives damn to the constitution ,,,,then u start calling urself Sikh or Muslim from today...it doesnt matter...sry i might sound a bit of hardcore but its the other side of the coin and take it on urself and see....

You are not understanding a word of what I'm trying to say bro. It means I care the least for what the Constitution supposedly says or does not say about religion.And it seems you are also not willing to listen.

While preparing such a huge constitution you cant be writing Hindus,Sikhs,Buddhists and Jains each and every time the words are mentioned and for convenience sake the one word Hindu is used to refer to all four.

It does not mean Sikhs, Buddhists or Jains are sects of Hinduism. Sigh.

 

[justanobserver]

bhai saab jee,,i am sorry if am sounding naive...census form is something i dont remember on personally ticking any religion...yeh but what i know of census is that i would always say sikh as a religion and there is no option that u tick where it is mentioned hindu,islam, sikh , christian, etc...but still i would always say that the constitution is above the census form....
agree this is endless debate... but then some posters in the beginning of this thread have been rather casual on sikhs...

Census 2011 form had religion AFAIK. I remember ticking 'Jain'

edit: This is from the official census website

Religion returns in Indian census provide a wonderful kaleidoscope of the country s rich social composition, as many religions have originated in the country and few religions of foreign origin have also flourished here. India has the distinction of being the land from where important religions namely Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism have originated at the same time the country is home to several indigenous faiths tribal religions which have survived the influence of major religions for centuries and are holding the ground firmly Regional con-existence of diverse religious groups in the country makes it really unique and the epithet unity in diversity is brought out clearly in the Indian Census.

Ever since its inception, the Census of India has been collecting and publishing information about the religious affiliations as expressed by the people of India. In fact, population census has the rate distinction of being the only instrument that collets the information son this diverse and important characteristic of the Indian population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_And_You/religion.aspx

 

[jdme]

Indian trolls battling Pakistani troll? I see no other reason to engage billaltroll (clever right).