The Kargil Conflict Revisited

[Mav3rick]

Well, you can chose to believe the words of a alleged murderer and a criminal over the words of your prime minister, but I am sure everyone in Pakistan is not as naive..

Kargil probe body had sought Musharraf

If NS is indeed correct then that makes Musharraf a very big liar and Indian Military severely incompetent as they claimed that Pakistan lost around 1k soldiers. But I know why you want to come across as 'naive' deliberately.....

Did you read what your ex Army chief stated about Musharraf's visit inside Kargil and the praises he landed on Musharraf? Can NS ever dream of giving straight answers to any Indian media or audience like Musharraf? Musharraf was the man, the soldier that thought of Pakistan above everything else!

Sure he is


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History is full of tales of heroes who were betrayed by their fellow countrymen. One does not have to be accepted as hero to be a hero, he just has to be. Muhammad Bin Qasim is a prime example and look at what happened to him after he had conquered, Nelson Mandela had to serve how many years in the jail? That's just a couple of examples. Bhutto was hanged because of his defiance against the west and struggle to create a Muslim block and for his attempts to make Pakistan Nuclear. What happened to Qaddafi after making Libya a superb welfare state? I can just go on and on!!!

Well, unlike you, most sane Pakistanis do not consider Pakistani military as their mom and General Parvez Musharraf as their dad..

Its you who needs to understand the concept of need to know. Lying is not justified by need to know. Need to know is based on omission of facts and not commission of lies.. Reading Robert Ludlum and watching a couple of Hollywood movies and then parroting profound phrases does not make a good argument... .. By your logic, all perjury by state officials can be hidden behind the facade of Need to Know (and probably is in Pakistan )..

You, on many occasions, come across as a stupid child. I mean what else can one say when you you post what you did up there without taking into account the consideration of 'intent' in all activities of the state officials. The facade that you tried to create then vanishes into thin air!!

Perhaps we should consider all those men who made us the Nuclear Power as liars and cheaters as they tried their best to hide the ability from us Pakistanis until Pakistan's test on 28th May against Indian tests. Had India not tested those devices we would still not know about our own ability.....the lying BAS*****!!! But things will not make any sense to you, after all a 9 will appear 6 to you as you will always stand opposite to me!

 

[karan.1970]

If NS is indeed correct then that makes Musharraf a very big liar and Indian Military severely incompetent as they claimed that Pakistan lost around 1k soldiers. But I know why you want to come across as 'naive' deliberately.....

Musharraf is truly a very big liar and slowly but surely, his own comrades and subordinates are coming out with the truth about Kargil as we have been seeing for last couple of days when Admirals of Pakistan navy and generals of PA are exposing his lies on a daily basis..

Did you read what your ex Army chief stated about Musharraf's visit inside Kargil and the praises he landed on Musharraf? Can NS ever dream of giving straight answers to any Indian media or audience like Musharraf? Musharraf was the man, the soldier that thought of Pakistan above everything else!

History is full of tales of heroes who were betrayed by their fellow countrymen. One does not have to be accepted as hero to be a hero, he just has to be. Muhammad Bin Qasim is a prime example and look at what happened to him after he had conquered, Nelson Mandela had to serve how many years in the jail? That's just a couple of examples. Bhutto was hanged because of his defiance against the west and struggle to create a Muslim block and for his attempts to make Pakistan Nuclear. What happened to Qaddafi after making Libya a superb welfare state? I can just go on and on!!!

Yeah.. Pakistan's obsession with THE MAN is what landed you where you are.. If you consider that a place worthy of comparing Musharraf with Bin Quasim, then so be it

And by your logic every criminal lodged in Pakistani jail can also be as great as M B Quasim simply because they are marked as a criminal by your system...

You, on many occasions, come across as a stupid child.

Personal attacks are the last resort of the incompetent..

I mean what else can one say when you you post what you did up there without taking into account the consideration of 'intent' in all activities of the state officials. The facade that you tried to create then vanishes into thin air!!

And one would need to take the word of a criminal about his intent and pardon his crimes based on his self proclamation of intent.. And you say I come across as Naive ??

Perhaps we should consider all those men who made us the Nuclear Power as liars and cheaters as they tried their best to hide the ability from us Pakistanis until Pakistan's test on 28th May against Indian tests.

Not really.. Again the difference between omission of truth vs commission of lies.. But those people, one would call criminals and cheats because of other things they did.. Like black marketing of nuclear know how and proliferation..

as you will always stand opposite to me!

We finally agree, though only on thought.. since me standing opposite you, will make 6 look like its mirror image and not 9

 

[MST]

If NS is indeed correct then that makes Musharraf a very big liar and Indian Military severely incompetent as they claimed that Pakistan lost around 1k soldiers. But I know why you want to come across as 'naive' deliberately.....

Did you read what your ex Army chief stated about Musharraf's visit inside Kargil and the praises he landed on Musharraf? Can NS ever dream of giving straight answers to any Indian media or audience like Musharraf? Musharraf was the man, the soldier that thought of Pakistan above everything else!

Part of Pakistani army led by Musharraf in Kargil were no better than a raodside theifs. Like a thief they came into the house which was un occupied and when the inhabitants came back they ran away with their tails between their legs and in the process some of them got shot.

Just Let me know your home address and the time your whole family is out on vacation and I will show you exactly what Musharraff and Pakistani Army did.

I promise I won't break anything. I will just spend a night and go away.

P.S. I hope you catch my drift here.

 

[Mav3rick]

Part of Pakistani army led by Musharraf in Kargil were no better than a raodside theifs. Like a thief they came into the house which was un occupied and when the inhabitants came back they ran away with their tails between their legs and in the process some of them got shot.

Just Let me know your home address and the time your whole family is out on vacation and I will show you exactly what Musharraff and Pakistani Army did.

I promise I won't break anything. I will just spend a night and go away.

P.S. I hope you catch my drift here.

You missed several points in your post, which is quite typical of certain Indians. The most important point being Kargil on LoC which is sort of a no mans land, second that you could not dislodge around 5000 NLI (Non regular) troops from their positions even after deploying 35000 soldiers and 10 squadrons of IAF and so had to bring in the international community with threats of the possibility of a Nuclear War and finally the point that one of the most important peak is still occupied by Pakistan.......so the myth that Indian troops were able to retake the peaks vanishes as soon as you speak of peak 5353 and why could Indians still not retake that back and the answer is that Indians could take only those peaks that Pakistan abandoned because of civilian Government orders in face of severe diplomatic pressure.

 

[MST]

You missed several points in your post, which is quite typical of certain Indians. The most important point being Kargil on LoC which is sort of a no mans land, second that you could not dislodge around 5000 NLI (Non regular) troops from their positions even after deploying 35000 soldiers and 10 squadrons of IAF and so had to bring in the international community with threats of the possibility of a Nuclear War and finally the point that one of the most important peak is still occupied by Pakistan.......so the myth that Indian troops were able to retake the peaks vanishes as soon as you speak of peak 5353 and why could Indians still not retake that back and the answer is that Indians could take only those peaks that Pakistan abandoned because of civilian Government orders in face of severe diplomatic pressure.

Ahhh and the details...I am not interested.
But then its a fact that if I get into your empty house and bunker my self in it and when you come back you are going to call up the whole neighbourhood and the Police isn't it.

A thief is a thief irrespective of details. In this hypothetical case its me and in the real world in Kargil it was Musharraf and Pakistan Army.

 

[Paan Singh]

You missed several points in your post, which is quite typical of certain Indians. The most important point being Kargil on LoC which is sort of a no mans land, second that you could not dislodge around 5000 NLI (Non regular) troops from their positions even after deploying 35000 soldiers and 10 squadrons of IAF and so had to bring in the international community with threats of the possibility of a Nuclear War and finally the point that one of the most important peak is still occupied by Pakistan.......so the myth that Indian troops were able to retake the peaks vanishes as soon as you speak of peak 5353 and why could Indians still not retake that back and the answer is that Indians could take only those peaks that Pakistan abandoned because of civilian Government orders in face of severe diplomatic pressure.

Big lie,let me tell you reality.

1)Point 5353 is almost on LOC if you see Map and its narrow peak.

2)As far as i have read,Indian army wanted to retake it back but when ceasefire was announced,vajpayee asked them to stop shelling.
Even ABV was not intersted in kargil operation but elections were ready and it was question of national prestige and pakistanis already killed many soldiers who were gone for patrol.so there was no question of silence as it cud not be hidden.

There were confusing reports of presence.Few were saying about 50-60 persons and few were saying in thousands.

and those who says that it was successful bla bla ..

what happened to you on siachin

i think that was too vacated like kargil was vacated

you failed n we succeeded

 

[BATMAN]

If point 5353 was always in Pak control than why you idiots use to vacate Tiger hill every year?

Don't you see Pakistanis are watching even when you **** on tiger hill.

Either you think we all Pakistani members are idiots or either your own army is idiot.

 

[Mav3rick]

Musharraf is truly a very big liar and slowly but surely, his own comrades and subordinates are coming out with the truth about Kargil as we have been seeing for last couple of days when Admirals of Pakistan navy and generals of PA are exposing his lies on a daily basis..

Stating that Kargil was a misadventure is just ones opinion on the subject matter which was above the pay grades of all these generals who are speaking against it. Most of them are upset that the whole Military was not taken into confidence rather then Musharraf acting on the missions. I guess they all wanted a peace of the action and are now pissed because Musharraf kept the action curtailed.

Yeah.. Pakistan's obsession with THE MAN is what landed you where you are.. If you consider that a place worthy of comparing Musharraf with Bin Quasim, then so be it

And by your logic every criminal lodged in Pakistani jail can also be as great as M B Quasim simply because they are marked as a criminal by your system...

As I said in my post, it is the intent that really matters. Musharraf's intent was to do something better for the country and he held India by the jugular, Pakistan Army would rather have gone in for the kill then let the prey off so easy because of international pressure as you were scaring the whole world with the possibility of the conflict going Nuclear!

Personal attacks are the last resort of the incompetent..

Unless they are facts, spoken in all honesty!

And one would need to take the word of a criminal about his intent and pardon his crimes based on his self proclamation of intent.. And you say I come across as Naive ??

You do, quite literally, as intent of a soldier were clear from his actions.

Not really.. Again the difference between omission of truth vs commission of lies.. But those people, one would call criminals and cheats because of other things they did.. Like black marketing of nuclear know how and proliferation..

Black marketing is such an ugly word, infact it is a political word which changes definition every decade. How can the actions of some be considered black marketing when Pakistan is not a signatory to NPT is beyond me. Every country has a right to total defense especially with bullies like the USA around.

Anyway, I am done explaining the difference b/w the needs to keep certain things classified and purposeful deceit. Musharraf did what he thought was in the best interest of the country and I totally agree with him. The only difference is that NS was not as patriotic as your politicians were when you took Siachin.

We finally agree, though only on thought.. since me standing opposite you, will make 6 look like its mirror image and not 9

When I write 9 on something that is flat and visible to both of us, it will appear as a 6 to you. Try it!

 

[MST]

If point 5353 was always in Pak control than why you idiots use to vacate Tiger hill every year?

Don't you see Pakistanis are watching even when you **** on tiger hill.

Either you think we all Pakistani members are idiots or either your own army is idiot.

Both sides used to vacate in winter

 

[karan.1970]

Stating that Kargil was a misadventure is just ones opinion on the subject matter which was above the pay grades of all these generals who are speaking against it. Most of them are upset that the whole Military was not taken into confidence rather then Musharraf acting on the missions. I guess they all wanted a peace of the action and are now pissed because Musharraf kept the action curtailed.

I am sure you have the same argument against the German Military leaders who came out and testified against the inner circle of Hitler's men..

As I said in my post, it is the intent that really matters. Musharraf's intent was to do something better for the country and he held India by the jugular, Pakistan Army would rather have gone in for the kill then let the prey off so easy because of international pressure as you were scaring the whole world with the possibility of the conflict going Nuclear!

Mushy's intent was to avenge his embarrassment of Siachen when he could not dislodge the IA forces despite his multiple attacks and actually ended up conceding even more ground (Quaid post that is now called Banna post). But he forgot
"Kavva Chala hans ki chaal, apni bhi bhool gaya "

Unless they are facts, spoken in all honesty!

You just reinforced my belief that Pakistan follows a different English dictionary than the rest of the world..

You do, quite literally, as intent of a soldier were clear from his actions.

Yeah.. of sacrificing 4000 PA men to capture point 5353

Anyway, I am done explaining the difference b/w the needs to keep certain things classified and purposeful deceit. Musharraf did what he thought was in the best interest of the country and I totally agree with him. The only difference is that NS was not as patriotic as your politicians were when you took Siachin.

This farce could have flied if he wasnt defending his lies even 13 years after he lost the gamble he played in Kargil..

When I write 9 on something that is flat and visible to both of us, it will appear as a 6 to you. Try it!

I was just suspicious of Pakistani dictionary.. Now you are making me suspect the Number system too

 

[Mav3rick]

I am sure you have the same argument against the German Military leaders who came out and testified against the inner circle of Hitler's men..

Can you doubt Hitler's intention to make Germany the supreme authority throughout the world?

Mushy's intent was to avenge his embarrassment of Siachen when he could not dislodge the IA forces despite his multiple attacks and actually ended up conceding even more ground (Quaid post that is now called Banna post). But he forgot
"Kavva Chala hans ki chaal, apni bhi bhool gaya "

What he could not do in Siachin, he more then made up for in Kargil.

You just reinforced my belief that Pakistan follows a different English dictionary than the rest of the world..

And you just reinforced my belief that your live in your own little world, very far away from the real world.

Yeah.. of sacrificing 4000 PA men to capture point 5353

Still better then the 12000 Indian soldiers killed. And at the same time we are holding 3 critical peaks at Kargil.

This farce could have flied if he wasnt defending his lies even 13 years after he lost the gamble he played in Kargil..

His gamble payed off so huge in Kargil that it is still stuck in your throats, you are still unable to digest it after a decade, that's how badly he mauled you with a few non regular NLI soldiers!!!

I was just suspicious of Pakistani dictionary.. Now you are making me suspect the Number system too

I hope you are not physically handicapped as you obviously could not follow my simple exercise for the test.

 

[karan.1970]

Can you doubt Hitler's intention to make Germany the supreme authority throughout the world?

As long as you accept him as an idol for Pakistan, I am good with your argument.. And we all know what happened to Nazi Germany

What he could not do in Siachin, he more then made up for in Kargil.

That's true.. While he lost miserably in Siachen, he came no where near the damage he caused to Pakistan's international standing that he caused by Kargil.. And in Siachen the Pakistani body count was much lower than 4000

And you just reinforced my belief that your live in your own little world, very far away from the real world.

Lame, so I will let it pass...

Still better then the 12000 Indian soldiers killed.

Pakistani fairy tales ... or should I say Houri Tales

His gamble payed off so huge in Kargil that it is still stuck in your throats, you are still unable to digest it after a decade, that's how badly he mauled you with a few non regular NLI soldiers!!!

Well, Its Pakistani leaders who are falling over themselves to out Mushy's lies.. Not Indians.. Looks like the last few days of embarrassments have got your perspectives all messed up

I hope you are not physically handicapped as you obviously could not follow my simple exercise for the test.

The right word these days is differently abled.. But looks like that has still not made its way to the special Pakistani dictionary

Anyway, do explain your exercise and allow all of the readers to have a bit of fun

 

[Porus]

This discussion is leading us nowhere, and the excessive usage of the colourful and funny smileys also reveal the mental level of the participants in this serious discussion.

A judicial commission should be set up in Pakistan to investigate the Kargil episode. The people of Pak have the right to know what really happened at LoC in the summer of 1999.

 

[nForce]

If NS is indeed correct then that makes Musharraf a very big liar and Indian Military severely incompetent as they claimed that Pakistan lost around 1k soldiers. But I know why you want to come across as 'naive' deliberately.....

Did you read what your ex Army chief stated about Musharraf's visit inside Kargil and the praises he landed on Musharraf? Can NS ever dream of giving straight answers to any Indian media or audience like Musharraf? Musharraf was the man, the soldier that thought of Pakistan above everything else!





History is full of tales of heroes who were betrayed by their fellow countrymen. One does not have to be accepted as hero to be a hero, he just has to be. Muhammad Bin Qasim is a prime example and look at what happened to him after he had conquered, Nelson Mandela had to serve how many years in the jail? That's just a couple of examples. Bhutto was hanged because of his defiance against the west and struggle to create a Muslim block and for his attempts to make Pakistan Nuclear. What happened to Qaddafi after making Libya a superb welfare state? I can just go on and on!!!





You, on many occasions, come across as a stupid child. I mean what else can one say when you you post what you did up there without taking into account the consideration of 'intent' in all activities of the state officials. The facade that you tried to create then vanishes into thin air!!

Perhaps we should consider all those men who made us the Nuclear Power as liars and cheaters as they tried their best to hide the ability from us Pakistanis until Pakistan's test on 28th May against Indian tests. Had India not tested those devices we would still not know about our own ability.....the lying BAS*****!!! But things will not make any sense to you, after all a 9 will appear 6 to you as you will always stand opposite to me!

I agree with you on the bold part.They were all great heroes.But Musharraf is not among those heroes.All he did was he lost a war that he waged!!something that cost Pakistan and its army its reputation,reliability and a 1000+ lives.

 

[karan.1970]

This discussion is leading us nowhere, and the excessive usage of the colourful and funny smileys also reveal the mental level of the participants in this serious discussion.

It always helps to keep the discussion light, else all of us have a tendency to descend into mini kargils on the forum itself .. (ok.. no smiley now)

A judicial commission should be set up in Pakistan to investigate the Kargil episode. The people of Pak have the right to know what really happened at LoC in the summer of 1999.

Bang on.. There is certainly something that Mushy does not want the world to know. Listen to him almost midway into the video