The JH7B---Rashid Minhas---Navy Frigates---Less Subs

[Akasa]

Before we get all wrapped up in anticipation, let's not forget that the JH-7B is simply a MLU of the original JH-7A, with emphases on avionics, FBW systems, engines, and IFR. We do not know what kind of radar the JH-7B carries nor are we aware of exactly to what extent the upgrades were implemented.

The JH-7B, albeit efforts to keep it in service, is still a dated platform akin to the Tornado, meaning that it will face the same flight envelope and technological limitations as other legacy aircraft. The PLAAF is already replacing the JH-7 with the J-16 (which does have AESA) and the PLANAF plans to do likewise with their new J-15S (which also will have AESA when it comes into service).

Let's wait for more information pertaining to the aircraft before laying down the verdict on whether it is suitable for the PAF or not. Integration of air-to-ground weapons such as the C-705KD and LS-6 on the JF-17 speaks to me that the PAF expects its main workhorse to embark on a secondary strike role as well.

 

[DrWatson775]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

Agree with what you say but did you really have to open a new thread for this?

 

[Thorough Pro]

@MastanKhan

I always find your posts very interesting thought provoking, looking at things from a different perspective. I strongly believe no idea is ever insane and no question is ever stupid and their are no holy cows, one must be able to look at and analyze things from different angles and challenge all assumptions, analysis, beliefs, data, and point of view.

Opposition to differing and radical/unorthodox ideas reflects inability to think through, develop 360 degree view and results in poor planning with all emphasis on plan "A" with no sound Plan "B", "C", "D", "E", or "F"

Pakistan needs a Air Force with 540 Fighter Jets based on F-16 and JF-17 and J-10 B or J-11 D as for JH-7 B we should get it after we manage to get three Jet I earlier mentioned. As for Navy we need a Navy with at least 18 Frigates and Corvettes and 6 Destroyers and 14 Submarines. Navy should also be backed by at least 54 Fighter Jets @MastanKhan

What is your justification of exactly "540" jests? Do you have any mapping for their locations, roles and needs or you just pulled that number from thin air?

 

[Sine Nomine]

@MastanKhan what about H-6k's?

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

Not for Pakistan---but china is extremely serious about the B version for its heavy naval strike missions+ its Growler type capabilities.

This aircraft will turn out to be the best bang for the buck for naval strike roles if they stay the course that the manufacturer is talking about.

Due to its range after refuelling---this is the most suitable aircraft for naval strike missions for Pakistan navy---specially those that you fly over the ocean and then target land as well.

Due to its long legs----you can fly 30 deg--or 45 deg offset to the target---or even 90 deg offset---turn and then attack from a different direction.

View attachment 249091


If you look at this map---it can literally fly from Karachi---gwadar---pasni literally 145 deg away from the target and then turn and the strike from a totally different direction.

Dear Sir,

Something is better than nothing so in PN case, Mirages are nothing and JH7b if inducted may considered to be something. However considering limited induction option PN needs a true multirole heavy fighter to make combo with lighter JF17s. Please do comment on Air to Air capabilities of JH7b and odds against induction of J15/16 in PN.

 

[niaz]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

Honourable Mastan Khan,

I am sure you are aware that I have great respect for views. You would also agree that even the most like-minded friends could have diametrically opposite views about the some subjects.

From the defence acquisition viewpoint; variations in the perspectives can be far too many. For example, an aircraft or a ship may be excellent in every aspect but it may be not be available for political reasons or may incorporate too complex a technology too difficult to be absorbed by the technical & manpower resources of the country. The specific war machine may already be in service with the other country and you would therefore prefer to avoid it. It may be prone to sanctions and / or too expensive to acquire in sufficient number to be effective.

Except for a few kids who prefer to live in ‘Cuckoo land’; majority of the forum members take things seriously and express their views honestly. If it disagrees with one’s views; it just indicates that he/she is looking from a different perspective (Remember 4 blind men examining an elephant).

For example your consider JH 7B as most suitable as Naval Strike platform because of its performance. I on the other hand prefer to keep varieties of aircrafts to as few as possible from the maintenance & training perspective and advocate use of JF-17 instead.

Whether we like it or not, it is the planners at PAF HQ whose opinions really count. At the end of the day, it makes little difference what you or I or anyone else thinks what should or should not be acquired.

What I am trying to say is that once you have posted what you honestly believed to be right; there is no point is getting disheartened or annoyed when ‘Think Tank’ or any other Forum member disagrees with you

In the meantime, please do keep indulging us with you opinions as I for one like reading your posts.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Why JH-7 why not go for J-11's? or if Lucky su-35

JH-7 don't stand a chance against Mig-29

 

[RealNapster]

Sir,

That is where the Israelis excel----they are looking at all the illogical problems that they will face. They train themselves to look at everything that is not expected.

yes. that's true. but i want to read more about that strategy. can you share me some links/books etc ?

I had heard that after the 6 day war, whenever there was a high level intelligence briefing, it was the duty of 1 out 10 analysts to play devil's advocate and bat for things however illogical and improbable they might seem. It was done so that Israel is never out of the loop.

Policy was instituted by Golda Meir herself

sir . i want to read more about this stretegy. can you provide me some links/books etc ??

 

[Viper0011.]

Why JH-7 why not go for J-11's? or if Lucky su-35

JH-7 don't stand a chance against Mig-29

This is precisely what I am saying. JH-7 flying with even half the load like 5 tons, can't maneuver a good BVR missile. And I can guarantee that there won't be 1 coming, the IAF will have the ability to fire two - three bvr missiles at each jet!!! The JH-7, even with its great load out and all, can't deal with so many Mig's and Mirages, that's just the fact. The PAF doesn't have numbers in a sense that they can send escort planes with each JH-7 mission.

The $ 20-30 million cost to acquire, setup maintenance and support and train pilots on tactics, can go elsewhere. A good purpose to use the $ 20-30 million is to invest into super sonic or Hypersonic missiles (future research with the Chinese). If you build each supersonic anti-ship missile for half a million each, for $ 20 million, you could have 40 missiles.


Now instead of sending One or Two JH-7's, if you send 80 missiles for the same cost, you are guaranteed results. As the Migs or other jets can't intercept them, and the target, no matter how "fortified" it is, its still not the US Aegis system with over 30 big ships per CBG. So 80 missile means a conservative number say 20-30% would hit the target, that is 16-24 missile hitting the IN ships. Nothing else will get you this guarantee.

For the Naval Air Arm, you can use JFT's block II and III and find heavies in terms of J11's or SU-35 for the top tier and some more subs to put your missile launching platforms under sear and way close to the enemy.

If Pakistan had 4-6 subs out there in deep waters (beyond the standard 8) and always on the move, just missile launching platforms a couple of hundreds miles away from the IN, it would be insanely difficult for the IN to be effective, use her Migs or anything else would become useless when dealing with Subs. Its almost impossible to beat this option as the range of missiles and their effectiveness extends the reach to 500-700 KM's off the coast. And that's a LOT of range that sub brings to you..

 

[CHI RULES]

This is precisely what I am saying. JH-7 flying with even half the load like 5 tons, can't maneuver a good BVR missile. And I can guarantee that there won't be 1 coming, the IAF will have the ability to fire two - three bvr missiles at each jet!!! The JH-7, even with its great load out and all, can't deal with so many Mig's and Mirages, that's just the fact. The PAF doesn't have numbers in a sense that they can send escort planes with each JH-7 mission.

The $ 20-30 million cost to acquire, setup maintenance and support and train pilots on tactics, can go elsewhere. A good purpose to use the $ 20-30 million is to invest into super sonic or Hypersonic missiles (future research with the Chinese). If you build each supersonic anti-ship missile for half a million each, for $ 20 million, you could have 40 missiles.


Now instead of sending One or Two JH-7's, if you send 80 missiles for the same cost, you are guaranteed results. As the Migs or other jets can't intercept them, and the target, no matter how "fortified" it is, its still not the US Aegis system with over 30 big ships per CBG. So 80 missile means a conservative number say 20-30% would hit the target, that is 16-24 missile hitting the IN ships. Nothing else will get you this guarantee. For Naval Air Arm, you can use JFT's block II and III and find heavies in terms of J11's or SU-35 for the top tier and some more subs to put your missile launching platforms under sear and way close to the enemy. If Pakistan had 4-6 subs out there in deep waters (beyond the standard 8) and always on the move, just missile launching platforms a couple of hundreds miles away from the IN, it would be insanely difficult for the IN to be effective, use her Migs or anything. Its almost impossible to beat as the range of weapons and effectiveness extends the reach to 500-700 KM's off the coast. And that's a LOT of range.

Dear Sir, PN only requires true multirole fighters like J11B, J15 or J16 however Su35 may not prove to be favorable option even if Russia agrees as India may easily get all required infor to counter it from Russia. Further Russia has history to export downgraded versions of ammo. I totally agree with u regarding induction Chinese 4.5th gen latest twin engine jets which are further development of SU27 family.

 

[Viper0011.]

Dear Sir, PN only requires true multirole fighters like J11B, J15 or J16 however Su35 may not prove to be favorable option even if Russia agrees as India may easily get all required infor to counter it from Russia. Further Russia has history to export downgraded versions of ammo. I totally agree with u regarding induction Chinese 4.5th gen latest twin engine jets which are further development of SU27 family.

SU-35 doesn't have to be in, if its not the right jet. I listed it under the category of "heavies". I am perfectly ok with J-11D and J-15, if the radars allow simultaneous engagement with 4-6 enemy fighters. If that's two, than the JFT does that today. What's the use of a big chassis if it can only involve two planes like the JFT and FC-20. So that's one thing I'll make sure, bigger radar and 4-6 target firing capability at one time.

 

[DrWatson775]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

You missed the explanation for Rashid Minhas Shaheed in this opening statement.......

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

JH7B is cheap fighter now cost 20 million $ , It will add punch in strike abilities. Perfect according to our budget and mature platform. Not only bomb truck but also with Long radar.

 

[masud]

Hi,

Have any of you people written anything that you do not understand or believe in? Myabe one time---maybe twice---maybe not too long of an article.

If---basically---all your writings are based on what you understand---on what you see---or what you think it is going to be---or what you think it is supposed to be---or your experience has made you believe in----or you follow the direction of certain authors and writers---what you learnt in college, school or university---or what you learnt at your job------

Then---why is it that if I write something from my perspective---from my view---from my vision---from my readins and understanding that you feel is outrageous and is different than what you believe in and that you will have a problem with it.

A few examples of serious disagreement over the years:---

1. about 7---8 years ago---I discussed that everything is focused towards the BVR combat---it will be shoot and scoot kind of mindset----trying not to get into a merge----. I cannot count the number of people who jumped on the train to discount my observations----oh well---

2. 8--9 years ago---people were eager to have a conflict with the U S---Pakistanis wanted to fight the U S military and air force--and I stated---pak military is no match. Pakistanis were itching for a fight to tell the americans that they are no Iraqis---.

That argument lasted for years---and again there was a bandwagon of those who jumped on my case----. Oh well----Salala check post incidence popped the bubble and released the steam out of everyone.

3. About the JH7B aircraft---I have written about it---and you guys will see this version upgraded for the Chinese navy----with its total fly by wire system--composite material usage---anti radiation paint---and a massive aesa radar----and witt is the Chinese navy preparing it for---for the U S navy. It may not be much of a match there---but against the indian navy---this aircraft would be a beast.

There was so much absurdity with the think tank that one day I resigned my position many a years ago---and my nay sayers are still there.

So----as long as I am here---I will write my piece as I see fit---I do not write anything to please you.

hello, i have very little knowledge about war. i brows pdf to aquire knowledge. i don,t reed your past threed because i also new hare. i am not going to heart any personal emotion or your thinking sir. for me it,s simple " I ONLY LIKE ARGUMENT"
and i am totally disagree with you sir...............
why induct old platfrom when new and batter platfrom is available(j-10, j-15) ?
is it abble to counter mig-29 & su-30 mki?

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

Some sensible members on this forum, are always open to new ideas, no matter how illogical it may seem at that point in time. Do ignore the negativity and keep posting.

Best Regards

I follow the same axiom in PDF !!