The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Asoka]

You should really chance your medicine... WS-10C = WS-12 for a so far hnknown naval J-20 that has no catapult gear and no-one even mentioned.

You are a genius ...

And why do they change to the lower-powerful WS-10 if already the WS-15 is sooooo great?

But you genious will surely explain ...

"J-20 that has no catapult gear and no-one even mentioned."

That's because the Aircraft Carriers with EM Catapult haven't been built yet. No need for J-20 to have catapult gear and the hook, for now. It will be years before the third Carrier with EM catapult could be commissioned.

"And why do they change to the lower-powerful WS-10 if already the WS-15 is sooooo great?"

The fact is, no one knows how powerful this WS-10/12 with captapult capability is. It is a mystery why PLAAF won't stick with a navalized version of the WS-15, but got two versions of the WS-10/12.

What is the matter, Herr Deino?

Are you still clinging to your pet theory that J-20 is still flying with Al-31, like a drowning man, clinging to a straw?

"You are a genius ... "

Thank you, very much, for this very nice and flattering complement.

 

[Akasa]

The Chinese have a saying that says: "You can't wait up a person who is pretending to be sleeping."

I have already said a hundred times before that the WS-15 engine that J-20 have flown with, since day one, is an early version. They have changed the Engine around 2015, that is shorter and have an entirely different sound, which sounds like the howling of a dragon, as some Chinese said. This is the interim model in low serial production of 25 engines per year.

Now, a new version with 3 layers of nozzle petals is under development.

This is probably the mass production model that will produce 200 units per year, or 100 J-20 per years, beginning in the middle of 2020's.


They have at least 3 versions now, according to an earlier leak, which an award was given to a design who improved a third Patch of the Engines.

Now, the mystery of WS-10/12, with saw-tooth nozzles, on J-20 is solved. These two engines are for the navalized version of J-20 to be used on China's future Aircraft Carriers, with Electromagnetic Catapult.

These WS-10 engines will synchronize their power output with the EM Catapult, which could adjust the power output level, depending on the weight of the aircraft, to be launched. In this way, the maximum g-force load on the pilot and the aircraft is greatly reduced, and lessen the damages on the pilot's spine and delicate electronic equipment.

But there is no need to knock down those WS-10/12 engines with stealthy saw-tooth nozzle petals. We don't know the maximum thrust are. They could be a giant leap above the WS-10A.

Are you 遥远7900 on CJDBY by any chance?

 

[Asoka]

Are you 遥远7900 on CJDBY by any chance?

no, i don't have an account on CJDBY, which i can post. But I did got this leak from that site.

I think someone in CIJBY and in that Chinese Engine Company is in serious trouble right now.

The Chinese censor is probably going to shut CIJBY down at least for couple of days, just for warning.

It took only one day for the Chinese Censors to scrub all Chinese Internet Websites clean and pluck this leak.

I couldn't find this leak anywhere else, now.

I will probably got a warning, soon in my email, like last time.

As I have said, this leak is of first order in seriousness.

With the precise dimensions and part names, any competent Jet Engine Engineer with a CAD/CAM software could reproduce the full dimensions of WS-10/12/13, WS-15 and many other engines such as WS-18, WS-19 in 3D, and derive their power rating or maximum thrust.

We know the WS-18 is a turbofan engine for the large transporter.

I haven't heard of the WS-19. I suspect is for the H-20 stealth bomber.

Again, the part names and dimensions of this WS-19 has been leaked, Jet Engine Engineers could reproduce this Engine in 3D and derive its power and thrust, and then derive the maximum speed, and range of H-20, once this Chinese stealth bomber is made public or capture in satellite photos.

 

[Deino]

"J-20 that has no catapult gear and no-one even mentioned."

That's because the Aircraft Carriers with EM Catapult haven't been built yet. No need for J-20 to have catapult gear and the hook, for now. It will be years before the third Carrier with EM catapult could be commissioned.

"And why do they change to the lower-powerful WS-10 if already the WS-15 is sooooo great?"

The fact is, no one knows how powerful this WS-10/12 with captapult capability is. It is a mystery why PLAAF won't stick with a navalized version of the WS-15, but got two versions of the WS-10/12.

What is the matter, Herr Deino?

Are you still clinging to your pet theory that J-20 is still flying with Al-31, like a drowning man, clinging to a straw?

"You are a genius ... "

Thank you, very much, for this very nice and flattering complement.

Do you have any evidence, any proof for that theory? Can you explain, why no-one else but you "knows" this or is so genious to come to this conclusion?

It sounds like some sort of fairy tale no-one tells but you. No-one in any other forum comes to that abstruse theory....

 

[Asoka]

Do you have any evidence, any proof for that theory? Can you explain, why no-one else but you "knows" this or is so genious to come to this conclusion?

It sounds like some sort of fairy tale no-one tells but you. No-one in any other forum comes to that abstruse theory....

This theory of an Engine built to specificly synchronize with the EM Captapult, is something I haven't heard of before. It just dawn to me, when I came across this Leak.

I do know the EM Catapult has a huge advantage over Steam Catapult that it could be programmed to release its tremendous power according to the weight of the Aircraft, therefore to greatly reduce maximum g-force load on the pilot's spine and on the aircraft.

Shooting off the deck of a Carrier, with a Catapult, is an experience you can never forget. Not even an experienced pilot, with hundreds of launches like this, one little bit.

So it makes a lot of sense to synchronize the output of your engine with the Catapult launch, to make the powerful jolt on the spine, much less severe.

I seriously doubt the Chinese were the first to get this idea. This probably copy this EM catapult idea and an Engine synchronized to the Catapult from the Americans, since they were the pioneers in EM Catapult, with the USS Ford, already commissioned in 2017.

 

[Deino]

...
I haven't heard of the WS-19. I suspect is for the H-20 stealth bomber.
...

Ahhhmmm ... everyone knows, WS-19 is the new medium-thrust turbofan.

 

[Asoka]

It is no secret now, that the third Chinese Carriers will have a Catapult. They have studied the steam catapult and EM catapult. And they have determined the benefits of EM catapult outweighs risk of EM catapult. Since they never have operated the Steam catapult either, the risk of EM is no greater.

It is still an official secret as to the version of the Stealth Aircraft that will be launched off from the deck of the future Chinese Aircrafts.

With the WS-10/12 engines spotted on J-20, and with this Leak confirming WS-10/12 has catapult capability, it is reasonable to assume a navalized variant of J-20 will be the main strike force for future Chinese Carrier Task Group.

"Ahhhmmm ... everyone knows, WS-19 is the new medium-thrust turbofan."

May be, I have never paid attention this WS-19 before. I probably ignored it, even If I did read it somewhere.

Anyway, if WS-19 were not the right engine for H-20. An engine for the H-20 is somewhere hidden in this leak.

This is a massive leak. This internal reports contains hundreds of pages, specifically documented the state of Chinese engine development of DOZENS of both the civilian and military types.

 

[clibra]

so expensive

buddy, pay attention to the money unit. can't you read Chinese text? shame on you.

 

[52051]

To be fair, its highly likely J-20 will use WS-10 variants for a long time, sure the supersonic performance of J-20 will be comprised, but the range of J-20 with WS-10 is likely to be better than these with WS-15 due to the difference in bypass ratio, so they have both pros and cons and can serve different purposes, anyway the most important aspect of 5th gen is stealth and battlefield-awareness, so with WS-15 or not wont be a huge problem for J-20.

It is not uncommon for fighters enter mass production phase before their preferred engines are ready, especially in cold-war era, like F-14 and MiG-23.

 

[Figaro]

HO HO, Santa Claus has arrived early to our house. I have got my Christmas Present, early.

北京钢研高纳科技股份有限公司

http://www.cisri-gaona.com.cn/

View attachment 595413
CISRI-Gaona is a Chinese company that makes all kinds hi-tech superalloy products, including components for Chinese Aircraft Engines.


It has accidentally published its production projection figures for various Chinese Aircraft Engines, including the WS-15, WS-18 and WS-19.

View attachment 595411
Here is the my translation:


The national WS-15 engine is the highest priority project, future demand estimate is 5 engines per year. This is same for the WS-19 engine. The WS-15’s forged Titanium component price is 190 million Yuan each, and for the WS-19, it is 120 million Yuan. CISRI-Gaona has became a qualified supplier.

The following is the production projection figures.

View attachment 595411 View attachment 595412

Notice: the Market Share row. For 2020, the company’s market share for WS-15 and WS-19 is 20%. This means CISRI-Gaona is not the only suppliers for the same components.

If 5 is 20% of the market share, it means, the annual total production number for WS-15 is 25.

Strangely, though, the production estimate is the same for 2020 to 2025, yet the market share goes up from 20% to 50%.

So, I will take the market share figure with some salts.

This is the original post: https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2603525-1-1.html
Please take a quick look. I won't be surprise the Chinese Censors will delete it, soon.

If this report is true, which most indications say otherwise, then it is quite troublesome for the Chinese aviation industry.

 

[GiantPanda]

If this report is true, which most indications say otherwise, then it is quite troublesome for the Chinese aviation industry.

There are many elements in the report that suggests it is probably real.

It is not at all troublesome and in fact indicates pretty intense progress.

1) the WS-15 in limited series product already, I think people were taken in by the idiot Minnie Chan story that the WS-15 was expected at Zhuhai 2018. For that engine with those specs (180kN, 11:1 TWR) to be in LSP is a massive achievement. I don't understand what people are expecting if they found this to be troublesome.

2) The WS-19 is in limited series production. Who has even heard of the WS-19 just two years ago? Now there is an advanced medium engine for the FC-31 in LSP. Again, a very significant development and a great surprise to be perfectly honest.

3) The WS-10 is in full blown production with 320 a year and up 450 by 2026. You talking about a theoretical 125 J-20s, J-16s, J-15s, etc. and 100 J-10s per year and still leave 100 engines for spares. This is a massive, massive success story for the industry.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

There are many elements in the report that suggests it is probably real.

It is not at all troublesome and in fact indicates pretty intense progress.

1) the WS-15 in limited series product already, I think people were taken in by the idiot Minnie Chan story that the WS-15 was expected at Zhuhai 2018. For that engine with those specs (180kN, 11:1 TWR) to be in LSP is a massive achievement. I don't understand what people are expecting if they found this to be troublesome.

2) The WS-19 is in limited series production. Who has even heard of the WS-19 just two years ago? Now there is an advanced medium engine for the FC-31 in LSP. Again, a very significant development and a great surprise to be perfectly honest.

3) The WS-10 is in full blown production with 320 a year and up 450 by 2026. You talking about a theoretical 125 J-20s, J-16s, J-15s, etc. and 100 J-10s per year and still leave 100 engines for spares. This is a massive, massive success story for the industry.

That these engines are in LSP now is great. That they'll stay in LSP without any increase for six years is deeply problematic.

 

[Asoka]

If this report is true, which most indications say otherwise, then it is quite troublesome for the Chinese aviation industry.

LOL.

What are your "most indications" that says otherwise?

It simply explains a lot what we have seen in the last few years. It confirms that the Chinese jet Engine development is very active.

They have multiple engine development programs for J-20, including two for the PLAN Navy with Catapult capability, and beside the current WS-15 in low serial production, they have one WS-15 engine that has 3D TVC 12 nozzle petals.

This indicates PLA is developing multiple variants of J-20 for different missions.

This will be "quite troublesome" for any country intend to make an enemy out of China. IMHO.

That these engines are in LSP now is great. That they'll stay in LSP without any increase for six years is deeply problematic.

These are sales/production projection by a company, which was just qualified to make parts for the WS-15.

The "intern" who did those projections don't know everything. He/She certainly don't know what will PLAAF's production in 2026 will be, IMHO.

Why am I suspect it was an "Intern" who did those projections? Because, anyone who has been in that company for a while, would not have posted this sensitive document on the Investor Relations section of the company's website.

 

[Figaro]

LOL.

What are your "most indications" that says otherwise?

It simply explains a lot what we have seen in the last few years. It confirms that the Chinese jet Engine development is very active.

They have multiple engine development programs for J-20, including two for the PLAN Navy with Catapult capability, and beside the current WS-15 in low serial production, they have one WS-15 engine that has 3D TVC 12 nozzle petals.

This indicates PLA is developing multiple variants of J-20 for different missions.

This will be "quite troublesome" for any country intend to make an enemy out of China. IMHO.



These are sales/production projection by a company, which was just qualified to make parts for the WS-15.

The "intern" who did those projections don't know everything. He/She certainly don't know what will PLAAF's production in 2026 will be, IMHO.

Why am I suspect it was an "Intern" who did those projections? Because, anyone who has been in that company for a while, would not have posted this sensitive document on the Investor Relations section of the company's website.

I was referring to the WS-15 production rates your source stated ... rates that are quite low.

That these engines are in LSP now is great. That they'll stay in LSP without any increase for six years is deeply problematic.

If I'm not mistaken, Oedosoldier stated these are just financial forecasts and the company in question is not involved in the WS-15 component production but rather WS-10 production. Even so, I doubt these forecasts are accurate since it wouldn't make sense for the production rate not to increase despite considerable testing during that time frame ... especially as long as 6 years.

 

[Asoka]

I was referring to the WS-15 production rates your source stated ... rates that are quite low.


If I'm not mistaken, Oedosoldier stated these are just financial forecasts and the company in question is not involved in the WS-15 component production but rather WS-10 production. Even so, I doubt these forecasts are accurate since it wouldn't make sense for the production rate not to increase despite considerable testing during that time frame ... especially as long as 6 years.

"I was referring to the WS-15 production rates your source stated ... rates that are quite low."

As I have said, this Report's writer do not know what is PLAAF's production plans are for the next few years. The 5 WS-15 engines for 2026 is obviously absurdly low, even just for this company.

"If I'm not mistaken, Oedosoldier stated these are just financial forecasts and the company in question is not involved in the WS-15 component production but rather WS-10 production.'

I beg to differ.

This company seems to be involved in the components production for every type of PLAAF engines and Chinese civilian engine.

Beside the WS-10, there is WS-10/12 Catapult Engines, low serial production WS-15, testing/development WS-15 with 12 nozzle petals, and the Engine for the next generation of fighter beyond J-20, currently under testing and development.

As I have said, since we have seen pictures of J-20 equipped with two engines with WS-10 like nozzles, and this Report has stated that there are two WS-10, WS-12 engines customized to Catapult launch, it is highly likely that a navalized version of J-20, will be PLAAF's main strike force for the newer Aircraft carriers with Electro-magnetic Catapult.

If I were the F/A-18 and F-35 pilots, I would stay away from this navalized J-20 beast.