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The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

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It is operational. It has been flown, since day one of J-20's testing. It's now entering LRIP, and preparing for mass production, which may still take 2-3 years to hammer out, the various production issues, so to avoid quality problems encountered by WS-10.


But that's only the one opinion .. and to admit: a single person's opinion ! :p:
 
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Hi guys ... in order to separate the on-going and already so often discussed question on the J-20's powerplant from the other J-20 news but also from the engine's thread I opened this new special thread.

Please continue here.

Deino
Well.... to not get confused by the schism of this thread...

Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions | Page 608
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chengdu-j-20-5th-generation-aircraft-news-discussions.111471/page-608


The endless J-20-engine saga ... to keep the J-20-thread clean ! | Page 4
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...a-to-keep-the-j-20-thread-clean.514445/page-4

Many of them openly admit that they want to become 带路党.

If these guys are not 美分党, then it is beyond me.

They are no Russian fans, but using the Russian engines to bash China on purpose.
Akin to "Jingri" 精日 as mentioned in this article? :P
https://baike.baidu.com/item/精日/22068470?fr=aladdin
 
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I have to admit that I don't understand Your internal quarrels but it is beyond my understanding how much a more or less scientific or technical issue can be decided to which party or group You want to belong?

I for myself admire China and its achievements esp. in the aviation sector. In some (certain) Western forums I'm called the "China-fan-boy" and even in a certain German one "semi-official propaganda-man" since I try to defend their point of view and perception (esp. against India, the SCS and the USA) but why should I be a China-basher or why do some claim I wish any harm only due to my conclusion it uses a Russian originated engine?

Deino
 
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I have to admit that I don't understand Your internal quarrels but it is beyond my understanding how much a more or less scientific or technical issue can be decided to which party or group You want to belong?

I for myself admire China and it's achievements esp. in the aviation sector. In Western forums I'm usually called the China-fan-boy and even in a certain German one "semi-official propaganda-man" since I try to defend their point of view and perception (esp. against India, the SCS and the USA) but why should I be a China-basher or why do some claim I wish any harm only due to my conclusion it uses a Russian originated engine?

Deino

Leave them be. They just people who love to force their own idea to the others.

Many of them openly admit that they want to become 带路党.

If these guys are not 美分党, then it is beyond me.

They are no Russian fans, but using the Russian engines to bash China on purpose.

Well, just think that they have different opinion, and let's learn to agree to disagree with somebody, sometime. Because their opinions won't effect the reality. If J-20 is really use a domestic engine, then it uses a domestic engine. Al-31F fans opinion won't change that. Plus, don't you think that it is better that way? If you read Sun Tzu, or other ancient China Strategy book, you'll know "that something that full appear empty, but something that empty appear full" (sorry for my bad English). Maybe those people are CIA (Chinese Intel Agency, I mean PRC spy) who don't want people to know about Chinese real capability, or maybe they are clueless. But just leave them alone.

When both parties can't get a conclusion in a debate, just agree to disagree, and don't throw an accusation. And if they're troll, just leave them alone. You know "Don't feed the troll", It's not worth for you health.
 
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It is operational. It has been flown, since day one of J-20's testing. It's now entering LRIP, and preparing for mass production, which may still take 2-3 years to hammer out, the various production issues, so to avoid quality problems encountered by WS-10.
Admirable achievement IMO.
This engine with mentioned thrust and it's thrust vectoring capability, is a great achievement for Chinese scientists.
:tup::tup:
 
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Admirable achievement IMO.
This engine with mentioned thrust and it's thrust vectoring capability, is a great achievement for Chinese scientists.
:tup::tup:


Problem is only: HE IS WRONG !!!
 
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Can you please elaborate?

It's not operational or it doesn't exist?


Following nearly all others here at PDF the WS-15 has finished bench testing and is ready to enter flight testing "soon" ... soon however could mean late 2017/early 2018 or even later. When it will be spotted on an operational J-20 is therefore far, far too early to know. Before that happens surely one or more J-20s will be equipped with that new engine test-wise and IMO if we see any operational J-20B before 2022 it would be a miracle.

By the way following another report I found here, "the WS-15's nozzles are short and stubby, and comes with serrated edges. It'll be pretty obvious when a J-20 mounts them" (via: https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2403427-1-1.html)

I know concerning this engine discussion I also don't have many supporters (albeit on the other side of the possibilities) since most here believe these latest TV-reports, that claim the J-20 uses already an indigenous engine. IMO it is not and by my theory it uses a special custom-made - maybe China co-developed and financed - uprated version of the AL-31FN based on the M2 ... however others deny this and so it seems ...

Finally there are few who think it is a mystical hybrid or Frankenstein WS-10X based on the WS-10's core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle + other certain modifications to fool us ... IMO the most unlikely option.

But as I said so often: let's agree to disagree until someone truly official either from the PLAAF, AVIC or CAC confirms the type of engine.

Deino
 
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Following nearly all others here at PDF the WS-15 has finished bench testing and is ready to enter flight testing "soon" ... soon however could mean late 2017/early 2018 or even later. When it will be spotted on an operational J-20 is therefore far, far too early to know. Before that happens surely one or more J-20s will be equipped with that new engine test-wise and IMO if we see any operational J-20B before 2022 it would be a miracle.

By the way following another report I found here, "the WS-15's nozzles are short and stubby, and comes with serrated edges. It'll be pretty obvious when a J-20 mounts them" (via: https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2403427-1-1.html)

I know concerning this engine discussion I also don't have many supporters (albeit on the other side of the possibilities) since most here believe these latest TV-reports, that claim the J-20 uses already an indigenous engine. IMO it is not and by my theory it uses a special custom-made - maybe China co-developed and financed - uprated version of the AL-31FN based on the M2 ... however others deny this and so it seems ...

Finally there are few who think it is a mystical hybrid or Frankenstein WS-10X based on the WS-10's core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle + other certain modifications to fool us ... IMO the most unlikely option.

But as I said so often: let's agree to disagree until someone truly official either from the PLAAF, AVIC or CAC confirms the type of engine.

Deino

Well, I don't have any opinion about engine, because I still not understand about them. Heck, i still can't see the different between AL-31F and WS-10, even after you explain them to me many time in the past. And I don't even know WS-15 (I remember there was a photo about it, but I still can't see the different between those engines.
 
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Leave them be. They just people who love to force their own idea to the others.



Well, just think that they have different opinion, and let's learn to agree to disagree with somebody, sometime. Because their opinions won't effect the reality. If J-20 is really use a domestic engine, then it uses a domestic engine. Al-31F fans opinion won't change that. Plus, don't you think that it is better that way? If you read Sun Tzu, or other ancient China Strategy book, you'll know "that something that full appear empty, but something that empty appear full" (sorry for my bad English). Maybe those people are CIA (Chinese Intel Agency, I mean PRC spy) who don't want people to know about Chinese real capability, or maybe they are clueless. But just leave them alone.

When both parties can't get a conclusion in a debate, just agree to disagree, and don't throw an accusation. And if they're troll, just leave them alone. You know "Don't feed the troll", It's not worth for you health.

These guys have already revealed their true color by openly admitting that they want to see China's downfall, and this is not the matter of the opinion anymore. It is becoming a cyber warfare in China's online community.

I also previously thought they were just conservative about China's jet engine development, but it turned out that I was wrong.

Again, Deino is attempting to portray me as paranoid by trying put the words into my mouth. I never suggested anyone who believed the J-20 using the AL-31F are China bashers, but I am specifically pointing out those trolls from the PLAAF section of the CD forum. Many of them are clearly on payroll to spread the malicious propaganda.
 
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...

Again, Deino is attempting to portray me as paranoid by trying put the words into my mouth. I never suggested anyone who believed the J-20 using the AL-31F are China bashers, but I am specifically pointing out those trolls from the PLAAF section of the CD forum. Many of them are clearly on payroll to spread the malicious propaganda.

@ChineseTiger1986 Sorry, Sorry and Sorry again ... :cray:
I beg Your pardon if You took my reply as a personnel reply directed to or even against You, it was only meant to demonstrate that I don't understand how much a certain academic or technical answer can be related to a political meaning. It was therefore a statement in general - o.k. Beast always claimed I would only like to downplay or downrate anything from China - against these guys and never meant with the intention to put any words into Your mouth.

If blue is blue, then it remains blue regardless my political opinion and it does not become red if I follow another one. Consequently I do not admire the J-20 or its capabilities lesser even if it uses an AL-31.

That was my point.
 
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" but why should I be a China-basher or why do some claim I wish any harm only due to my conclusion it uses a Russian originated engine?"

You got misled, I am afraid. I don't detected a China bashing bone in you. I admit. I have read a few of your published articles. They are highly neutral in tones, and you tell only a little of what you actually knew. I won't call you a "China fanboy". They got this impression may be because you knew so much, while they knew so little.

"Maybe those people are CIA (Chinese Intel Agency, I mean PRC spy) who don't want people to know about Chinese real capability, or maybe they are clueless. But just leave them alone. "

That's what I have been suggesting. They were ordered to do so. But the phase of Strategic Deception is over, IMO. The war clouds are gathering over China and Russia and the rest of the world. Strong deterrence, should take the center stage, to prevent war.

Massive number of the highly capable J-20, will be at the forefront, of this conventional force deterrent.

"Finally there are few who think it is a mystical hybrid or Frankenstein WS-10X based on the WS-10's core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle + other certain modifications to fool us ..."

I am one of those guys. But let's get this straight.

1.) I think the prototype WS-15, that first flew on J-20, in 2011, was an engine with a WS-15 engine core, not WS-10 core.

2.) It was not mated with AL-31FN-Nozzle. It was an original 3D TVC nozzle. made in China. Its external appearance happen to look like the AL-31FN Nozzle.

3.) This similarity was not intentional, but incidental. It was not meant to fool anyone.

4.) The fact that many people confused J-20's engine with AL-31FN, is no fault of the designers.

"Following nearly all others, here at PDF, the WS-15 has finished bench testing, and is ready to enter flight testing "soon""

Not "soon", but already done. The ground bench testing has already completed, over a decade ago. And took flight testing onboard of J-20 has taken place on Jan. 2011.

The fact that WS-15's engine core, has entered ground bench testing, and meet all design parameters specifications, in 2005, is not just my personal opinion.

As I have mentioned earlier, an insider has revealed this ground bench testing, in a long article in China's "Ordnance Industry Science Technology", 2007, Vol. 7.

"For China's New Generation of Fighters - A Study on China's High Thrust to Weight Ratio TurboFan Engine Core's Development"

You can do a machine translation here, and read it, if you don't believe me.

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_7040813_1.html


It's safe to say, all the people here at PDF added together, don't know WS-15's engine core more than this engineer, who wrote this article and worked in this project.
 
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@ChineseTiger1986 Sorry, Sorry and Sorry again ... :cray:
I beg Your pardon if You took my reply as a personnel reply directed to or even against You, it was only meant to demonstrate that I don't understand how much a certain academic or technical answer can be related to a political meaning. It was therefore a statement in general - o.k. Beast always claimed I would only like to downplay or downrate anything from China - against these guys and never meant with the intention to put any words into Your mouth.

If blue is blue, then it remains blue regardless my political opinion and it does not become red if I follow another one. Consequently I do not admire the J-20 or its capabilities lesser even if it uses an AL-31.

That was my point.

It seems that @ChineseTiger1986 and @Deino problem is more about miss understanding. So let's us put down this matter from now on. I understand people like Deino, who is more about technical matter, doesn't understand about China political meaning. Because I don't know about it either. We are not China Citizen, although I'm a Chinese Descendant. So it is an alien matter for both of us. So let's us put down this matter and free our thought from suspicious feeling.

Discussing about J-20 is very exciting. So let's us discuss it with exciting mind :)
 
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