The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Asoka]

1. "Clearly the other Chinese members here have interpreted it differently than u ... why not just accept that and drop it? "

I am still waiting for an answer from the Chinese Counter-Intelligence Damage Control Team to explain, why would anyone want to strap a large and expensive multi-million dollars TurboFan Engine WS-10/12 on an expendable, one time use only, Bomb or Missile.

Someone please explain that sh*t to me. I am pleading ignorance, here.

2. "Besides, a "cataput" engine doesnt really make sense anyway. "

Well, may be not to Mr. Figaro.

It makes a whole of sense to me, to make an engine that could synchronize with the Electromagnetic catapult, to have a far smooth launch.

Remember, you can't do that with a Steam Catapult. All the steam would just let go at once, when the valve is opened.

"3. Im sure such engines are referred to navalized engines by the Chinese."

Yup, it seems China testing WS-10/12 on a J-20, for the last few years, and it has specifically designed to use with an Electromagnetic Catapult, on the upcoming Chinese Aircraft Carriers.

And our Chinese Counter-Intelligence Damage Control Team here on PDF, is focused on protecting this secret that a navalized version of J-20 will be the main strike force of the future Chinese Carriers.

I bet the debate whether China will use J-20 or the cheap crap FC-31 on the new carriers, is just smokescreens.

6. "So youre saying that youre information is so credible that if a Chinese poster presented it, they would be taken in? You cant be serious ..."

I am not sure, what are you talking about.

This Leak has been scrubbed clean from all Chinese websites by censors, just after one day.

If anyone still post it in China, he will be taken in by Chinese State Security, I am sure.

This Leak is most serious.

The Chinese are clearly not ready to let the world know what 4th generation fighters will be catapult off the new aircraft carriers.

This is still highly classified information.

 

[kuge]

well, let give a benefit of doubt to asoka, will ya?

 

[Deino]

well, let give a benefit of doubt to asoka, will ya?

No, ... even more why? If any of the reliable, respected members here like @LKJ86 or @星海军事 or others would agree, I would indeed become skeptical, but so fan none of his claims was correct, was proven with real evidence or was accepted in other places. Theories like +240kN thrust pre-serial WS-15s from day one, already now an 3D-axis-symmetrical TVC-system operational on all J-20, a WS-12 catapult engine ... none of these theories bears any credibility or "benefit of doubt".

IMO he is probably one of the least reliable and trustworthy members of the PDF and surely not a Chinese secretly living in the USA who constantly fears that the Chinese Internet Security or the secret service will hunt him ... IMO he's nothing but a troll

 

[Asoka]

1. "he is probably one of the least reliable and trustworthy members of the PDF "

LOL.

I am here for the Truth and Mr. Deino can't handle the Truth.

He would just love to live in his delusional pet theory that J-20 has been flying with the AL-31 engine from day one, and still is, even J-20 is already under low serial production.

2. "who constantly fears that the Chinese Internet Security or the secret service will hunt him ... "

I live in the US, and I post only information I have got the open source, that is why I can speak out, whereas, people in China can't.

Sometimes, I got the feeling Mr. Deino is the best helper for Chinese Counter-Intelligence to squelch/suppress the truth, using his position as Moderator on PDF.

3. "IMO he's nothing but a troll"

LMAO

The Truth don't go away.

 

[Deino]

1. I am here for the Truth and Mr. Deino can't handle the Truth.

2. Sometimes, I got the feeling Mr. Deino is the best helper for Chinese Counter-Intelligence to squelch/suppress the truth, using his position as Moderator on PDF.

3. The Truth don't go away.

1. "Mais non, bien au contraire" ... exactly to the contrary: As a man from nature science I can easily handle the truth. In fact I only stick to facts and in cases where facts are barely known I tend to accept the most probable option as the one, closest to the truth until more, better or even contradicting evidence is given. What I cannot accept are theories, that are more a brain-fart, ideas which are completely unfounded and in contradiction to other opinions.

2. Ohhh well, yet another theory. Sorry, but unfortunately I'm not paid by the Chinese Counter-Intelligence.

So like the following points:

1. I have already explained that "XS" stands for "WS". Obscuring certain names or use code word is common technique to confuse potential spies.

2. My wife keep telling me, I am "special" (not in a compliment way) that she has never meet any Chinese like me.

...

1. Sorry, but I must contradict: By scientific standard you did not explain, you only said. For an explanation we are all waiting ... but, No. We are not waiting for another long theory.

2. Maybe this is her polite way to admit, You are simply crazy?

 

[Asoka]

1. "As a man from nature science I can easily handle the truth."

Not really, "Science" is a cult, just like Christianity and other ancient cults. New Truths will be rejected flat-out, if new evidences do not fit its existing dogmas.

Many "scientists" behaves exactly like cult-members".

You are in this "cult" that China could not have developed WS-15 engine, before 2011, and flown with J-20, since day one.

"2. In fact, I only stick to facts"

No, you don't. You stick with your dogmas, and reject any new evidences that do not fit your strongly held dogmas.

"3. and in cases, where facts are barely known I tend to accept the most probable option as the one, closest to the truth until more, better or even contradicting evidence is given. "

Yes, that might be true, if other "experts" agree already with that.

That is the problem. Most "experts" don't know or is not in the loop. The state of WS-15 engine development is a strongly guarded Chinese state secret.

4. "What I cannot accept are theories, that are more a brain-fart, ideas which are completely unfounded and in contradiction to other opinions."

That is a wise and prudent thing to do, if those theories are "brain-fart" with no evidences to back them up.

I have done my own extensive researches, and came up with strong evidences that J-20 have been flying with WS-15 since day one, and it has 3D TVC nozzle, and at least, 210kN of maximum thrust.

5. Sorry, but unfortunately, I'm not paid by the Chinese Counter-Intelligence.

No, you are not. I don't believe so. You are NOT an Chinese intelligence agent. Far from it.

I have always wonder why the military forums like Pakistan Defense Forum, Indian Defense Forum, Sino Defense Forum, and many others do have no ads, or charge a membership fee, to support themselves.

I thought they were run by volunteers, only, so they don't need much money.

But that still need to pay for web-hosting, the servers, the softwares, and many other expenses, associated with running a busy website.

Then, someone told me, CIA has an extensive open-source web-based intelligence collection program. That explains it.

https://www.cia.gov/news-informatio...d-story-archive/open-source-intelligence.html

"Information does not have to be secret to be valuable. . . The Intelligence Community generally refers to this information as Open Source Intelligence (OSINT). OSINT plays an essential role in giving the national security community as a whole insight and context at a relatively low cost."

I am not accusing anyone associated with those Forums are CIA agents or employees.

They might not know, who they actually work for.

I will know the truth, if this post got promptly deleted or I got banned again.

2. Maybe this is her polite way to admit, You are simply crazy?

No, I don't think, she think I am crazy, but I am "strange" in more than one ways.

This is probably I am a "rooster" in Chinese horoscope. Roosters are known to be strange, opinionated, argumentative, and have a pioneering spirit.

They simply have no regard to other's opinions, expert or not, if they don't like it, or don't think its the Truth.



Correction:

"I have always wonder why the military forums like Pakistan Defense Forum, Indian Defense Forum, Sino Defense Forum, and many others do [NOT] have no ads, or charge a membership fee, to support themselves."

 

[Deino]

1. Not really, "Science" is a cult, just like Christianity and other ancient cults. New Truths will be rejected flat-out, if new evidences do not fit its existing dogmas.

"3. Yes, that might be true, if other "experts" agree already with that.

1. If this is your attitude, then there is indeed no basis to discuss this further.

3. Great, but there are simply NONE. No-one here agrees, at least no expert.

 

[lcloo]

弹用发动机 = Microturbo engine for UAV and cruise missiles.

There is no such thing as catapult engine for aircraft.

 

[Asoka]

弹用发动机 = Microturbo engine for UAV and cruise missiles.

View attachment 598549 View attachment 598550 View attachment 598551

View attachment 598554

Those are small or micro-fan engine for cruise missiles. They are not large and expensive WS-10/12 Turbofan engines. I am well aware that cruise missiles uses a small turbo engine to power itself.

 

[lcloo]

Those are small or micro-fan engine for cruise missiles. They are not large and expensive WS-10/12 Turbofan engines. I am well aware that cruise missiles uses a small turbo engine to power itself.

There is no WS-12 aircraft engine, its development was cancelled in 1999.

弹用发动机 = engines for cruise missiles. (also suitable for use on UAV)

XS-12 engine is not WS-12 engine. And neither is xs-10 = WS-10.

 

[Asoka]

There is no WS-12 aircraft engine, its development was cancelled in 1999.

弹用发动机 = engines for cruise missiles.

XS-12 engine is not WS-12 engine. And neither is xs-10 = WS-10.

There is an XS-10 弹用发动机, or WS-10 弹用发动机, if I am not mistaken.

1. If this is your attitude, then there is indeed no basis to discuss this further.

3. Great, but there are simply NONE. No-one here agrees, at least no expert.

"1. If this is your attitude, then there is indeed no basis to discuss this further."

Yes, it is sad to see someone insisted living in a fantastical delusion, despite all the evidences around him.

I have learn a lot about how the human mind actually works.

 

[lcloo]

View attachment 598555

There is an XS-10 弹用发动机, or WS-10 弹用发动机, if I am not mistaken.



"1. If this is your attitude, then there is indeed no basis to discuss this further."

Yes, it is sad to see someone insisted living in a fantastical delusion, despite all the evidences around him.

I have learn a lot about how the human mind actually works.

昔公明仪为牛弹清角之操，伏食如故。非牛不闻，不合其耳矣。转为蚊虻之声，孤犊之鸣，即掉尾奋耳，蹀躞而听。

 

[Asoka]

LOL.
This is like some Christians keep quoting scriptures to "prove" his points, but do not trying to explain what they mean.

"XS-12 engine is not WS-12 engine. And neither is xs-10 = WS-10."

I beg to differ.

Mr. Deino asked a very puzzling, disturbing but very valid question, why so many Chinese themselves, don't believe WS-15 is not ready, and it is not flying with J-20.

Here is a Post, I got on meyet.net asking the same question.

This is the only website in the world that agrees with me that J-20 was already using WS-15, since day one.

The real answer to this answer goes far beyond the question of WS-15 and J-20.

https://bbs.meyet.net/thread-321328-4869-1.html

"一个几年来在军坛纷纷扰扰的疑问——为什么会有毛发党？为什么会衍生太行党？为什么这些人死活不允许WS15安装在歼20的身上？

——今天，通过霉菌对这张照片的使用，我们已经看清楚了，想明白了，因为“威慑是一种实实在在可以带来战略利益的力量”，而WS15就是一种力压霉菌肥电的威慑力量！

没有WS15的歼20从根上讲就已经矮了肥电一头，其身上的光环就会暗淡许多，而其威慑力自然也就逊色十分。

装上WS15的歼20即使没有实战，也会瓦解霉菌空军地球第一的幻想及其所带来的各种战略利益，也会令二逼总统叫嚣的打击威慑力及张扬的毛衣战恐吓力瞬间化为泡沫，会令世界的走向研判出现霉国不想看到不敢看到的结论，并动摇美元的地位，打击CNN没脸蛇扭腰时报的话语霸权。

WS15其实已经成为了一种象征，象征中国已经摘取了那颗号称极顶的工业明珠，那自然就是可跟霉国比肩的强大的工业国。

这个象征是霉国，特别是CIA豢养的那群狗们无论如何都不能接受甚至不能想象的，因为那会断了它们的狗粮，令它们从此只能活在怀疑人生的自贱氛围中。"

Note: 霉菌, 霉国 = 美国

Correction:

why so many Chinese themselves, still don't believe WS-15 is ready, and it is flying with J-20.

 

[Asoka]

Let me be very clear that although it is very frustrating that Mr. Deino and Mr. Figaro do not believe my "outlandish" theory that J-20 has been flying with WS-15 since Day One, I do not believe they are malicious people, here to disparage the accomplishment of the Chinese people.

This is a theory that Mr. Dieno has pointed out that many Chinese people themselves do not believe. I am in a very few minority.

I believe they just want to see strong undeniable evidences.

Unfortunately, this is not help by the fact that the state of WS-15 engine development is still highly classified and that the Chinese Counter-Intelligence is under strict order to guard this state secret by sending out and encourage various disinformations, whenever, there is a leak.

Anyway, I am back after two years of absence to do my own things.

I wish both Mr. @Deino and Mr. @Figaro and the rest of PDF member, a Happy New Year.

 

[Silicon0000]

For all the fighting champs here (on a lighter note )

On topic: Guys lets agree to disagree and move on with this endless discussion.