The Infantry Division of PA

[Signalian]

Basically we need to spend a lot more funds to achieve the organizational structure that you have mentioned. Haven't HIT been producing different variants of M113 APC for years? In case there is no budgetary constraints, even if it produces enough M113 to equip a single Infantry unit in one year, you can have at least 2 Mech. Brigades by 5 years. I do not know the exact allocation of manpower or funds to HIT but I take it that their main focus is on AK2 at the moment. So the production of anything else may take a back seat. It will be interesting if they can achieve all that is being asked of them.


Isn't that what the Germans did during the later part of the Second World War to beef up formations' numbers artificially. I read that this experiment was not very successful as the overall firepower of a single armoured division was greatly reduced. However, it may not be prudent to compare old WW2 tanks with modern ones. Advancement in armour technology may have allowed less modern MBTs than their old versions to do the same job. However, only pros. can tell if the current number is sufficient for any given task.



Maybe the recent trails of MBT3000 are a step in this direction.



So basically, to achieve these goals we need to ensure that we remain stable politically, our economy does not tank again and we are spared from natural disasters. Then maybe in 10 years we can get to the required/hypothesized level.

M-113 or Talha is not the only factor. PA needs to modernise Artillery with brand new pieces preferably 155mm on a major level. AK-II program needs to get moving rapidly. Other MBT's like Oplot and VT-4 are being tested for induction. Funds will be used on T-129, maybe Z-10 and also AH-1Z is on the cards. A new fire and forget ATGM is required, instead of wire guided. There is a need for more light transport helicopters as old ones are due for replacement. MRAP's are required and being inducted.

PA has a knack for using the word Ad-Hoc for new or extra formations to make up for numbers. The 36 Infantry Div and 39 Infantry Div were formed in 71 and were vastly under strength, a stint which didnt work out. GHQ does a lot of shuffling in the war by attaching units from here and there to make up new formations not only to confuse the enemy but sometimes its the need of the hour. Take this example to get an idea what GHQ will do:

1st Brigade: Punjab Regiment + Baluch Regiment + Sindh Regiment
2nd Brigade: NLI Regiment + AK Regiment + FF Regiment
Local Para-Military Forces in the area could be Janbaz Battalion,Mujahid Battalion and Maybe 2 x Rangers Company.

GHQ will shuffle them and a 3rd Regular Brigade will be formed.

1st Brigade: Punjab Regiment + Baluch Regiment + Janbaz Battalion
2nd Brigade: NLI Regiment + AK Regiment + Mujahid Battalion
3rd Brigade: Sindh Regiment + FF Regiment + 2 x Rangers Company.

...and now a 3rd Brigade will suddenly show up out of nowhere on the maps.

and how will it be used?

PA will use the Regular Regiments for attack roles and Paramilitary for defence roles so the over all efficiency and fighting levels of all unit is maintained and their roles remain the same. The Mujahid/Janbaz forces can also protect the flanks of the attacking force made up of Regular Regiments. Now this is just one of the straight forward combinations i have used. Since Mujahid/Janbaz forces are excellent in defence and Janbaz force is made up of locals of their areas know so the area very well and Rangers also know the area extensively due to constant patrolling. This makes the Recon factor strong in all brigades now.
Basically there are a lot of factors to play around with, it all depends upon circumstances, operational requirements, terrain and objectives to be achieved.

When I said that T-59's are cheapest to procure, that could make up numbers but they are not that effective and will need to be modernised still. IMHO, its best to procure more AK's, even if its the basic AK version, its still better than the T-59's and T-69's out there. An MBT cannot be back bone of the force unless its inducted in sufficient numbers. VT-4, Oplot may take time, its a good side by side procurement process, but crews will need to be trained still which will take time. AK's should be procured until T-59/T-69 sits in storage and next in line to go is T-85 III. That means another 500 or so AK's.
I have a hunch PA will make a new formation when it inducts VT-4 or Oplot, instead of replacing T-59.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

M-113 or Talha is not the only factor. PA needs to modernise Artillery with brand new pieces preferably 155mm on a major level. AK-II program needs to get moving rapidly. Other MBT's like Oplot and VT-4 are being tested for induction. Funds will be used on T-129, maybe Z-10 and also AH-1Z is on the cards. A new fire and forget ATGM is required, instead of wire guided. There is a need for more light transport helicopters as old ones are due for replacement. MRAP's are required and being inducted.

PA has a knack for using the word Ad-Hoc for new or extra formations to make up for numbers. The 36 Infantry Div and 39 Infantry Div were formed in 71 and were vastly under strength, a stint which didnt work out. GHQ does a lot of shuffling in the war by attaching units from here and there to make up new formations not only to confuse the enemy but sometimes its the need of the hour. Take this example to get an idea what GHQ will do:

1st Brigade: Punjab Regiment + Baluch Regiment + Sindh Regiment
2nd Brigade: NLI Regiment + AK Regiment + FF Regiment
Local Para-Military Forces in the area could be Janbaz Battalion,Mujahid Battalion and Maybe 2 x Rangers Company.

GHQ will shuffle them and a 3rd Regular Brigade will be formed.

1st Brigade: Punjab Regiment + Baluch Regiment + Janbaz Battalion
2nd Brigade: NLI Regiment + AK Regiment + Mujahid Battalion
3rd Brigade: Sindh Regiment + FF Regiment + 2 x Rangers Company.

...and now a 3rd Brigade will suddenly show up out of nowhere on the maps.

and how will it be used?

PA will use the Regular Regiments for attack roles and Paramilitary for defence roles so the over all efficiency and fighting levels of all unit is maintained and their roles remain the same. The Mujahid/Janbaz forces can also protect the flanks of the attacking force made up of Regular Regiments. Now this is just one of the straight forward combinations i have used. Since Mujahid/Janbaz forces are excellent in defence and Janbaz force is made up of locals of their areas know so the area very well and Rangers also know the area extensively due to constant patrolling. This makes the Recon factor strong in all brigades now.
Basically there are a lot of factors to play around with, it all depends upon circumstances, operational requirements, terrain and objectives to be achieved.

When I said that T-59's are cheapest to procure, that could make up numbers but they are not that effective and will need to be modernised still. IMHO, its best to procure more AK's, even if its the basic AK version, its still better than the T-59's and T-69's out there. An MBT cannot be back bone of the force unless its inducted in sufficient numbers. VT-4, Oplot may take time, its a good side by side procurement process, but crews will need to be trained still which will take time. AK's should be procured until T-59/T-69 sits in storage and next in line to go is T-85 III. That means another 500 or so AK's.
I have a hunch PA will make a new formation when it inducts VT-4 or Oplot, instead of replacing T-59.

I am guessing these new ad-hoc formations might end up confusing both the enemy and the ourselves. I was thinking that with some T-59s being given to FC, even they might even end up as part of these ad-hoc setups. Secondly, we may have around 600 AKs and UDs. Then maybe 700 Azs and T-another 85 IIIs out of total inventory of approx 2500. That leaves half of the tank fleet to be updated urgently and another 500 inducted if we want to have a dedicated armoured brigade with each infantry div. There is a need of some major upgrade and overhaul IMO.

 

[Sheraz Patriot]

Armies around the world are using IFVs to carry and support their infantry in the battlefield but we are using the vintage m113 and its derivatives as apcs.
Without the IFVs our infantry and mbts would be at risk in front of enemy who has big numbers in every department.
Tnx

 

[Zulfiqar]

PA can also supplement infantry formations with vehicles like below by using T series chassis and turrets similar to below (although with addition of some small calibre MGs as well). This will help add a punch to formations that are not fully mechanized or are motorized.

 

[Cuirassier]

I don't expect a long range offensive in wartime, so the APCs are just battle taxis to carry the troops to the frontline of defense.

 

[Sal12]

I did bring up attaching at least 2 MIB's to ID's(Infantry Divs), especially those deployed on eastern border. The problem is that MIB's are already less in number. There are two Armour Divs, 2 Mechanised Divs and 7 IABG's which have utilised the bulk of MIB's.

Raising a new Mechanised brigade or an Armoured Brigade with in an ID is required but there are issues:

1. Like i said above, not enough APC's (MIB's). The foot infantry can be transported in trucks and dismounted at a fair distance from the front lines and then they march. MIB's need to keep up with MBT's so they need to go where the action is and then dismount soldiers. A reason why APC's need to have good protection.

2. Every MIB need constant fuel, spares and maintenance for its APC's. So budget wise, MIB's are expensive to raise and maintain. Same goes for Armour regiments, MBT's need different kinds of ammunition on top of that.

3. PA has a shortage of MBT's too. The reserve is 300 M-48's, which can either be used to replace losses or get formed into a new formation to beef up numbers.

4. IA Armour regiment has 59-60 MBT's, PA Armour regiment has 44 MBT's. PA formations are already smaller. There used to be 75 MBT's in PA Armour Regiments. Reducing the numbers helped create more Regiments in the past but reducing the number of MBT's now further will be make the regiments useless.

5. T-59 II's have limitations in engine which affects mobility. L-7 Gun is not bad, it does the job of infantry support very well, L-7 a rifled gun which is 52 calibre long, longer than AK, AZ smooth bore main guns. Its cheaper for PA to buy more T-59's to boost numbers but it doesn't make sense to buy more since a more modern and upgradable MBT is required now. So T-59 needs replacement and even while that's happening, more new MBT's are required.

6. PA has shortage of thousands of officers even while its churning out 600 officers from PMA in every term instead of previously 450. The reason is that new formations have been raised even when old ones have shortage of officers. It is said that SSD and LCB's have been raised from scratch.

7. Forming a new mechanised or armoured brigade will require support elements for the formation to function with maximum efficiency, which means more Artillery SP guns, more SP AD missile units, EME mobile workshops, more fuel tankers, more ammunition carrying trucks, recovery vehicles ARV's and Bridge laying vehicles AVLB's.

The idea is good to add more mechanised or armoured brigades to each ID, but it will take a lot of years to equip them.

Is the security division created for CPEC included in 19 Infantry divisons of PA?

 

[Signalian]

Is the security division created for CPEC included in 19 Infantry divisons of PA?

No. SSD is Light Infantry Division.

 

[Armchair-General]

Maaz

The maaz apc/ifv has eight missiles total with one on launcher and rest store inside for reloading.
Hope that this system is inducted on the APCs:

And combine the multi launcher with the 25mm gun used on the Al-Hamza:

The Maaz ifv already has better protection(14.5 mm) than the base M113(50 cal./ 12.7 mm) Protection can be increased with ERA or bolt on armor. Firepower can be increased with use of laser guided missile (chinese or turkish maal) and 30mm cannon instead of 25mm(will shred the older t-72Ms India has.
And voila you have a system similar to the american bradley:

The system may also be mounted on a type 59 for something similar to the BTR-T:

Or Al Khalid chassis to get something like the terminator:

 

[Mumm-Ra]

No. SSD is Light Infantry Division.

How do we characterize light infantry division?

 

[Signalian]

How do we characterize light infantry division?

Forces which use light weapons only, like knives, hand guns, assault rifles, SMG, LMG, Bazooka etc are called Light Infantry. None of artillery howitzers or mortars, none of tracked armoured vehicles etc. Examples include all kinds of Special forces (commandos), LCB in PA case, para military forces to some extent. Para-drop forces too but they also use airborne tanks sometimes so some can be classified as Light Infantry.

 

[Gryphon]

Haven't we inducted drones, such as, Falco etc for recon?

Falco was inducted by PAF only, with the fleet suffering some crashes over the years.


Leonardo says that more than 50 Falco systems are currently in operation on three continents, having logged more than 10,000 flying hours. The launch customer was Pakistan, and Turkmenistan is believed to be the other customer in Central Asia. Leonardo will only acknowledge one Falco customer, the United Nations, for which it is providing a managed service in the Congo as part of the MONUSCO stabilization mission. Leonardo has recently partnered with certified air operator Heli Protection Europe (HPE) with a view to expanding its "drones as a service" offering into the civilian domain.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has used the Falco for surveillance of insurgents in its northwest border areas, and has received licensed-produced examples from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra. A senior PAF officer told AIN recently that operational experience with the Falco had been “mixed”; some of the UAVs had crashed after failure of the control datalink. But he acknowledged that this was “partly our fault, for not buying the entire ground station package from the Italians.”

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...leonardo-delivers-more-falco-uavs-middle-east

I would like PA to have 1-2 airborne infantry battalions within each division. The battalions should have capability to para-drop behind enemy lines or very quickly deployed ahead to act as a division screen or delay/disturb an enemy incursion (like an IBG incursion). It should give vital time for slower divisional elements to be deployed on their respect AoR.

If we assume only 1x airborne battalion in each infantry division, that would be 19 airborne battalions. Guess how many billions will be required to buy the helicopters / aircraft !!!

Forces which use light weapons only, like knives, hand guns, assault rifles, SMG, LMG, Bazooka etc are called Light Infantry. None of artillery howitzers or mortars, none of tracked armoured vehicles etc. Examples include all kinds of Special forces (commandos), LCB in PA case, para military forces to some extent. Para-drop forces too but they also use airborne tanks sometimes so some can be classified as Light Infantry.

The meaning of 'light' infantry in PA is confusing. FCNA is a mountain division, with NLI battalions and own artillery brigade FCNA Artillery. What differentiates light inf. div's from mountain inf. div's like 12 ID/FCNA ?

 

[Signalian]

The meaning of 'light' infantry in PA is confusing. FCNA is a mountain division, with NLI battalions and own artillery brigade FCNA Artillery. What differentiates light inf. div's from mountain inf. div's like 12 ID/FCNA ?

SSD has Internal security, escort and protection duties, related somewhat to LCB and SF duties on the same lines, rather than pure mountain warfare and assault infantry duties connected with FCNA. SSD gets no support from heavy weapons but FCNA does from artillery (tube and rocket), RR's like SPG-9 and may even include mortar platoon in the infantry echelon itself.

SF like SSG, SSW and SSG(N) are Light Infantry forces but have different duties and roles in different environments and mission requirements. they can shift from COIN ops to Hostage rescue to Behind Enemy Lines paradrop and assault. Another attribute of Light Infantry - Flexibility.

I don't expect a long range offensive in wartime, so the APCs are just battle taxis to carry the troops to the frontline of defense.

You are correct in keeping your expectations low. I don't expect the same from PA or IA, to conduct a long range Corps sized maneuver ops involving thousands and thousand of armoured vehicles with ease and success. Its not the handling alone, the logistics will also be a nightmare.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

You are correct in keeping your expectations low. I don't expect the same from PA or IA, to conduct a long range Corps sized maneuver ops involving thousands and thousand of armoured vehicles with ease and success. Its not the handling alone, the logistics will also be a nightmare.

I remember in your earlier threads you mentioned that pulling off Corps or maybe division sized maneuver is probably beyond the capabilities of both IA and PA. But, don't you think the WOT might have improved the abilities of PA to at least conduct such a maneuver in mountainous regions?

SSD has Internal security, escort and protection duties, related somewhat to LCB and SF duties on the same lines, rather than pure mountain warfare and assault infantry duties connected with FCNA. SSD gets no support from heavy weapons but FCNA does from artillery (tube and rocket), RR's like SPG-9 and may even include mortar platoon in the infantry echelon itself.

So basically SSD is a well equipped Police Force. So why not equip, train and bolster the local Police Force instead of raising an entire new division? That Police Force can be counted upon to ensure security in the province overall. Why involve yourself in areas that are not the expertise of the army?

 

[Signalian]

I remember in your earlier threads you mentioned that pulling off Corps or maybe division sized maneuver is probably beyond the capabilities of both IA and PA. But, don't you think the WOT might have improved the abilities of PA to at least conduct such a maneuver in mountainous regions?

30% improvement perhaps.

If you are talking about mountains with respect to LOC and Kashmir, PA would need air mobile forces. In WOT, the enemy was a different kind and lesser strength. The situation is opposite on LOC, here the enemy has artillery, air support, ATGM's, more in strength, lots of reserves etc.

So basically SSD is a well equipped Police Force. So why not equip, train and bolster the local Police Force instead of raising an entire new division? That Police Force can be counted upon to ensure security in the province overall. Why involve yourself in areas that are not the expertise of the army?

Its not just your query, but there is a general misconception on this forum regarding the domain and expectations from Police. There have been many topics regarding modernisation, upgradation and improving weaponization of the Police Force to make it more effective on the lines of creating it a potent unit to handle all kinds of threats.

Its has to be understood and accepted that Police and Army are very different in all spheres of service and duty. The professionalism of both forces is an open book in front of the country. Police conducts duty under the book of the law, whereas Army conducts duty on orders. Police can be pressurised politically and used for own vendettas, which is difficult in case of Army. The training and grooming of a policeman is very different from a soldier. Police is answerable for its actions to some extent and has to prove its actions in the court of law with evidence. Punjab Police had a hard time encountering dacoits (chotu gang) if you remember, Army had to be called in, don't expect much.

CPEC is a sensitive project and is linked with Military in some form or another. The scale of the project is tremendous and it runs through almost all provinces, the governance of the Police is different in all provinces, also the capability of handling a project of this capacity differs from Force to Force. Because of the magnitude of this project, Police lacks at some levels to handle the security, and to bolster SSD, the Pakistan Navy, Marines and some paramilitary units have been attached to SSD. Its better to make an autonomous force devoid of any complexities, armed and trained to the teeth with Pakistan's and CPEC's interest as priority.

Equipment wise, Army is already issued and provisioned with related weaponry, transport and support infrastructure with trained personnel to perform this role. Police will need to go through a vast over-haul which is time consuming and not budget efficient.

Politically, Chinese can be given guarantees from the Military for the security of the CPEC project, rather than risking mishandling from other organisations which can be influenced by the changes in Political Governments in coming years.

Providing security is one of the expertise of the Army, it can be seen during martial law (and many other instances in history of Pakistan) and also when Police starts to lose control of a situation in any part of the country, the Army is given a green signal to curb the situation. LCB's already provide internal security and have been formed after experience of Army units in COIN role. SSG/SSW/SSG(N) all have Escort and VIP protection detachments.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

30% improvement perhaps.

If you are talking about mountains with respect to LOC and Kashmir, PA would need air mobile forces. In WOT, the enemy was a different kind and lesser strength. The situation is opposite on LOC, here the enemy has artillery, air support, ATGM's, more in strength, lots of reserves etc.

Historically all fights in the Kashmir sector has spilled over to mainland Pakistan except Kargil. IA has used that to stretch the resources of PA. Kargil was different as at the time the military and political leadership were not even on the same book what to say of the same page. But previously, FC has not been used in conflicts in Kashmir, at least to my knowledge. With their experience in WOT and as now they have emerged as a potent fighting force, can't the FC much needed manpower cushion to PA in Kashmir in case of outright conflict with IA. They now operate Tanks so maybe FC, their equipment and training has undergone exceptional reforms and they have proved their worth. Maybe they can evolve from a being the sidekick to kick@ss.

Its not just your query, but there is a general misconception on this forum regarding the domain and expectations from Police. There have been many topics regarding modernisation, upgradation and improving weaponization of the Police Force to make it more effective on the lines of creating it a potent unit to handle all kinds of threats.

Its has to be understood and accepted that Police and Army are very different in all spheres of service and duty. The professionalism of both forces is an open book in front of the country. Police conducts duty under the book of the law, whereas Army conducts duty on orders. Police can be pressurised politically and used for own vendettas, which is difficult in case of Army. The training and grooming of a policeman is very different from a soldier. Police is answerable for its actions to some extent and has to prove its actions in the court of law with evidence. Punjab Police had a hard time encountering dacoits (chotu gang) if you remember, Army had to be called in, don't expect much.

CPEC is a sensitive project and is linked with Military in some form or another. The scale of the project is tremendous and it runs through almost all provinces, the governance of the Police is different in all provinces, also the capability of handling a project of this capacity differs from Force to Force. Because of the magnitude of this project, Police lacks at some levels to handle the security, and to bolster SSD, the Pakistan Navy, Marines and some paramilitary units have been attached to SSD. Its better to make an autonomous force devoid of any complexities, armed and trained to the teeth with Pakistan's and CPEC's interest as priority.

Equipment wise, Army is already issued and provisioned with related weaponry, transport and support infrastructure with trained personnel to perform this role. Police will need to go through a vast over-haul which is time consuming and not budget efficient.

Politically, Chinese can be given guarantees from the Military for the security of the CPEC project, rather than risking mishandling from other organisations which can be influenced by the changes in Political Governments in coming years.

Providing security is one of the expertise of the Army, it can be seen during martial law (and many other instances in history of Pakistan) and also when Police starts to lose control of a situation in any part of the country, the Army is given a green signal to curb the situation. LCB's already provide internal security and have been formed after experience of Army units in COIN role. SSG/SSW/SSG(N) all have Escort and VIP protection detachments.

I understand that we Pakistanis do not hold Police in the same regard as army. And rightly so. Their performance and their behaviour is quite pathetic. But, policing and providing internal security is not the function of a professional Army. They are to called if the worst comes to the worst. It is unfortunate that our crisis handling mechanism has not evolved at all. No one takes these matters seriously and the most helpless officials are posted in such departments.

However, Police has to be still the first line of defence in case of any internal turmoil. Writing off the entire department is not the way forward to solve their problems. The creation of SSD is again an Ad-hoc measure. It may placate the Chinese for now but ultimately, the responsibility to secure the CPEC infrastructure and to ensure safety of the persons working on CPEC projects has to be transferred to the Police. To that end, our leaders has to initiate reforms in how the Police recruits, trains and works. I remember there was a program on Mahaz in which the new Police recruits were being trained by the Army. As the rangers cannot maintain peace for the long run in Karachi. That responsibility has to be taken up the Police and Justice system.

Most times I feel like Pakistani politicians are some of the most short sighted imbeciles in this world. They have rarely shown the capacity to play the long game. Imagine if they had initiated concrete reforms instead of settling old scores and fighting among themselves. CPEC provided the opportunity to actually do something for the common man. Had this Police force not been turned into glorified personal guards, we might have seen better results than that infamous 10 hours lockdown in Islamabad, the handling of protests and even better security for CPEC projects.
I apologize for derailing. Perhaps this is a rant for another time and place.