The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Tipu7]

You are contradicting yourself..re-read what you wrote.

As I said, 1100 sorties...One crashed due to mal function, the other was downed by a "ground based anti aircraft gun"...nothing to do with paf...They were safe in their bunkers.

2 crossed, 2 shot down.
Every air craft suffer from malfunction when it receive Manpad in its ***.
No IAF pilot have scored any Combat Jet kill since 1971.
I used to think IAF pilots have now similar capabilities as PAF pilots, but recent Iron Fist exercise proved me wrong.
Chill ....................

 

[Centurion2016]

We now have three different threads on rafale purchase on Pakistan forums..

That's too much emphasis on a small order.

You have good faith in your tbundes and sanction pronex falcons

 

[maximuswarrior]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Very well thought out and written.

I have already expressed my opinion in another thread at the great displeasure of some Indian fanboys that this deal is a rip off. Not only from a cost perspective, but from so many other angles as you have also pointed out.

I still believe that for the Indians a Russian fighter deal would have been more favorable. Much of the infrastructure is in place and induction would have required not much effort. The Indians have truly opened a Pandora's box for themselves with the acquisition of insignificant number of Rafale fighters. This is going to be one hell of a painstakingly process for the Indians.

There's no treason for celebrations here. It should be taken as a cause of great concern for the PAF. There's no way to spin this. While PAF is fascinated with a 1970s era F-16s, India is undergoing 100-Billion+ modernization program almost creating a generational gaps between the capabilities of both air forces.

I agree that the Rafale shouldn't be taken lightly, but we have time. Pakistan is doing quite fine considering the monetary and other constraints. The PAF has understood its needs and is acting in accordance. It is about finding the right balance between a mix of hi and lo fighter fleet. We shouldn't complicate the task of our air force by committing the same mistake as the Indians have done. The adversary is in for a logistical nightmare. You just have to look at their massive fleet of fighters from various vendors around the world. This is not a very ideal situation. Ultimately Pakistan's answer will be the induction of a 5th gen fighter from China. That too in reasonably large numbers. No doubt about it. We can't compete numerically on a 1:1 basis, but we can have a lean and strong qualitative air force which is able to fulfil a defensive role effectively. Our doctrine is after all not based on offensive strategies.

 

[Ultima Thule]

As I said, name me one Pakistani who is superior to an Indian. Dude? Indians beat or compare to a pakistani is every field.. (except terrorism and fast bowling)..

@waz, @Oscar look at this he is insulting Pakistan please ban him, india are more terrorist than Pakistan in Kashmir, also you spreading terrorism throughout Pakistan via Afghanistan and Iran

 

[waz]

No pakistani alive is superior to an average Indian...name me one.

Are you serious? This has to be the one of the most craziest posts I have ever seen on this forum, and that's saying something.

 

[Norge Stronk]

Are you serious? This has to be the one of the most craziest posts I have ever seen on this forum, and that's saying something.

^^ This guy right here is pretty great.

So I think that already disproves the hypothesis put forth by a not as great person.

 

[waz]

^^ This guy right here is pretty great.

So I think that already disproves the hypothesis put forth by a not as great person.

Lol, thanks hun. You're sweet.

 

[aliyusuf]

No pakistani alive is superior to an average Indian...name me one.

Sir, I usually don't participate in these type of exchanges ... but I cannot help myself in all fairness and to state mildly & politely that you have not done any favors to your elite member status and reputation on this forum with a post like this.

 

[Ultima Thule]

We now have three different threads on rafale purchase on Pakistan forums..

That's too much emphasis on a small order.

You have good faith in your tbundes and sanction pronex falcons

And good luck for your maintenance pronex hanger queen Su-30 MKI 100000000000 th generations out of this universe LEAST CAPABLE AIRCRAFT which is 99% foreign

 

[maximuswarrior]

Sir, I usually don't participate in these type of exchanges ... but I cannot help myself in all fairness and to state mildly & politely that you have not done any favors to your elite member status and reputation on this forum with a post like this.

The Indian is afterall showing this true colours. Senior or junior makes no difference I'm afraid.

 

[Centurion2016]

still believe that for the Indians a Russian fighter deal would have been more favorable. Much of the infrastructure is in place and induction would have required not much effort. The Indians have truly opened a Pandora's box for themselves with the acquisition of insignificant number of Rafale fighters. This is going to be one hell of a painstakingly process for the Indians.

Let me try and explain the indian side of this purchase

1. IAF already has over 250 Su30 mki and 100+ Mig29k/smt fighters of Russian origin at is disposable .. If the Rusians get their act together this number could grow by another 127 fighters if and when India comits billions more $$$ on FGFA next gen fighter.

The last thing india wanted was yet another Russian fighter

2. Russian fighters are cheaper to buy but exensive to maintain and adding another MIG35 would not have got anything new technology wise into indian arsenal

3. India wants cutting edge technology they feel the French Israeli and USA systems iffer better technology hence they sought a western option.

4. Rafale is expensive but if you want the BEST then you PAY THE BEST money. Rafale today will be what F16 X40 PLANES was to PAF for over 30 years. ie the TRUMP CARD, FORCE MULTILER , TIP OF SPEAR etc etc etc.

or WHAT THE F22 RAPTOR is to USA araenal today.

The deal will not stop 36 planes currently the Indian Navy are looking at a new generation fighter for VIKRANT CARRIER this is between Rafale & F35 lightening . More rafales will come.

5 Western fighters are not new to india military ebven tonight there over 150 mirage2000/jagauars in indian air force.#
Thius Rafale is not a new pattern OR PANDO RA,s box its a careful well planned template and very succcesfful template too.

FINALLY without wishing to sound arrogant or big headed the Indians do not need to look at just cheaper Russian systems anymore . Russian after sales service is now very poor and india has had huge price escalations ie Gorskhov carrier price went up 3 times . Russia is paying the price for Putins arrogance India has money and optons to look elsewhere.

India no longer relys on Russia only weapons just look at the last 10 arms deals all French Israeli USA origin

BUT RUSSIA will get FGFA if they play ball with india on their demands and needs and built in gurantees and share with technology.
AS FOR RAFALE ask any indian pilot they love the Mirage2000 and the Rafale Is equal to 3 Mirage2000.

have the Indians made a mistake
absolutely no chance

 

[The SC]

250 JF-17 with AESA, IRST, ESM/CM like spectra, active cancellation technology, sophisticated targeting pods , 36 SU-35, while waiting for the J-31 v.2 and/or the Turkish TXF, should be a good answer for the next 10 years, not parity in numbers but a modern, solid and sound qualitative airforce to recon with..

 

[Centurion2016]

250 JF-17 with AESA, IRST, ESM/CM like spectra, active cancellation technology, sophisticated targeting pods , 36 SU-35, while waiting for the J-31 v.2 and/or the Turkish TXF, should be a good answer for the next 10 years, not parity in numbers but a modern, solid and sound qualitative airforce to recon with..

From that list the only plane that actually exists between today and next 3 years is the 36 SU35

TFX is a concept project that will see a plane in 2030+

J31 will arribe 2025-2030

As for JF17 with all those additions you looking at $ billions in testing adding and building over next 5-10 years.

WHAT CAN YOU DO NOW or next two /three years whereby you place order next 6 months and get delivery by 2019

PS in 2015 PAF approached Dassult to add MICA BVRs & RC400 MSA radars and French HMD and new dog fighting missle for 100 thunders. The Fench quoted $20 million per plane and 5 years to deliver .... The conversation ended with the quote

 

[The SC]

Let me try and explain the indian side of this purchase

1. IAF already has over 250 Su30 mki and 100+ Mig29k/smt fighters of Russian origin at is disposable .. If the Rusians get their act together this number could grow by another 127 fighters if and when India comits billions more $$$ on FGFA next gen fighter.

The last thing india wanted was yet another Russian fighter

2. Russian fighters are cheaper to buy but exensive to maintain and adding another MIG35 would not have got anything new technology wise into indian arsenal

3. India wants cutting edge technology they feel the French Israeli and USA systems iffer better technology hence they sought a western option.

4. Rafale is expensive but if you want the BEST then you PAY THE BEST money. Rafale today will be what F16 X40 PLANES was to PAF for over 30 years. ie the TRUMP CARD, FORCE MULTILER , TIP OF SPEAR etc etc etc.

or WHAT THE F22 RAPTOR is to USA araenal today.

The deal will not stop 36 planes currently the Indian Navy are looking at a new generation fighter for VIKRANT CARRIER this is between Rafale & F35 lightening . More rafales will come.

5 Western fighters are not new to india military ebven tonight there over 150 mirage2000/jagauars in indian air force.#
Thius Rafale is not a new pattern OR PANDO RA,s box its a careful well planned template and very succcesfful template too.

FINALLY without wishing to sound arrogant or big headed the Indians do not need to look at just cheaper Russian systems anymore . Russian after sales service is now very poor and india has had huge price escalations ie Gorskhov carrier price went up 3 times . Russia is paying the price for Putins arrogance India has money and optons to look elsewhere.

India no longer relys on Russia only weapons just look at the last 10 arms deals all French Israeli USA origin

BUT RUSSIA will get FGFA if they play ball with india on their demands and needs and built in gurantees and share with technology.
AS FOR RAFALE ask any indian pilot they love the Mirage2000 and the Rafale Is equal to 3 Mirage2000.

have the Indians made a mistake
absolutely no chance

So are you going to put 3 pilots in each Rafale?
Jokes aside, Indian needed the rafale because it could not trust its SU-30 MKI or even the upgades, just lately it has complained to Russia about its MIG-29' k performance too. But if the problem is with maintenance teams and pilots then the rafale too will be worthless for India just like the other aircrafts it is already operating,,

From that list the only plane that actually exists between today and next 3 years is the 36 SU35

TFX is a concept project that will see a plane in 2030+

J31 will arribe 2025-2030

As for JF17 with all those additions you looking at $ billions in testing adding and building over next 5-10 years.

WHAT CAN YOU DO NOW or next two /three years whereby you place order next 6 months and get delivery by 2019

PS in 2015 PAF approached Dassult to add MICA BVRs & RC400 MSA radars and French HMD and new dog fighting missle for 100 thunders. The Fench quoted $20 million per plane and 5 years to deliver .... The conversation ended with the quote

36 SU-35 will be around 4 billion $, maybe Pakistan should go for 24 MIG-35 and 12 SU-35, the cost should be around 2 billion $ and invest more in the JF-17 like I said in the previous post; those technologies won't take that many years to implement, since most of them will be off the shelve..
I think people will be surprized how fast the J-31 will show up on the market, Chinese officials said around 2019..

 

[war&peace]

Well underestimating your enemy is not a sane thing to do