The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Bilal Khan 777]

Indian Sub Continent is the only place were billions of the dollars of foreign exchange not spent on the welfare of its people but for buying wasteful equipment that will never be used.

Another good story

https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-successfully-fires-long-range-air-to-air-missile-”-mica”-from-upgraded-mirage-2000.451144/#post-8723929

So MICA and Rafale would increase the comonality along with the Mirrage UPG.

For history buffs, this is the Mirage Upgrade deal that killed the JF17 avionics package for Block 1/2, as it had the country exclusion clause.

 

[Centurion2016]

Rafale is a good multirole fighter but not a superiority fighter.
it's max ceiling is 50,000 feet and 1.8 mac which are the nighmare to compete a superiority fighter. with very very hafty price.

PAF has most proven multirole fighter f16 supported with stringless daily improving JF17.

Now PAF needs a superiority fighter. Su 35/37 fits excellently. and its most agile fighter in the world which is causing a real headach to F35 etc. Many articles indicates the challenges su 35 producing for west. max 2.25 mac 60,000 feet ceiling. good avionics infra red long range bvr etc. Except F22 raptor no other F15 F18 eurofighter can face su 35 as superiority fighter.


We should go for it with full zeel.

The rafale has not been purchased to win air superiority.

Refale carrys a 500km range scalp cruse missle and will be Indian tip of spear strike package.

The air supremacy is taken by 350..su30mki and mig29 fighters.

Rafale mirage20000/5 and jaguar will represent attack squadrons

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Integration costs are one time payment. They don't apply in future deals. Please check what integration means.

All future integrations and change proposals will be case by case, its NEVER one time cost.

 

[Aftab falcon]

If Iaf. Fears entering Pakistani space as it would leads to a full scale war and then a nuclear showdown then all such investment is usless and just sucking the blood of ut poor people

 

[CorporateAffairs]

India always had the air advantage over Pak.
Rafale is not for them.

 

[randomradio]

All future integrations and change proposals will be case by case, its NEVER one time cost.

All 14 new technologies are a one time cost. Anything new will cost extra, of course, but we don't have to pay for integrating the 14 technologies ever again.

Indian Sub Continent is the only place were billions of the dollars of foreign exchange not spent on the welfare of its people but for buying wasteful

We are trying to change that. Our goal is to reduce foreign imports by 5-10% every year until we are 60-70% self sufficient in our defence needs over the next few years. And get forex of $1-2B over the next two years with defence exports.

Of course, by the time we get to 30% imports, that 30% will be as big or bigger than the 70% today. But it will be a huge improvement.

 

[raja hindustani]

If Iaf. Fears entering Pakistani space as it would leads to a full scale war and then a nuclear showdown then all such investment is usless and just sucking the blood of ut poor people

By this logic, any army procurement by any nuclear power is worthless.

India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package,

Can someone better informed explain how true this is? I always thought SU30s were much more competent.

 

[Aftab falcon]

procurement

Yes especially if it is against a nuclear power

 

[Mrc]

Rafael will be countered... but still a good but very expensive aquisition

 

[Mikaail]

Just some media stupidity. The problem is that people who have no knowledge of military doctrines, tactics, systems and specially information related to fighter aircraft start making statements. Lets accept, Pakistanis & Indians are obsessed with having a good fighter aircraft and ignoring anything else in the air force's arsenal let alone thinking about the naval and ground forces role in any conflict.

The basic difference in offensive, deception and defensive tactics are lacking in these media personnel leading to unnecessary hype, war mongering & delusion.

 

[tarrar]

Well it is true Rafles will give IAF edge over PAF & I am sure PAF is exploring for options for a new fighter jet, but at the same time Pakistan should seriously consider to strengthen its air defence. China & Russia are the right choice for Pakistan for air defence hardware.

 

[BHarwana]

Q. Why 8.8 billion Indian Dollars made Pakistan's day.
Ans. Rafale what is it. 4++ generation fighter jet/ it is not 5th generation first of all. two engine small jet. Rafale plus points in it's class. It has the capability of short take of and landing what is needed for aircraft carriers. Flight ceiling 15000m speed 1.7 mac hard points 16. range 2000 km. Radar AESA multiple targeting capable. Defenses for infrared guided Flares for Radar guided none. So why India went for the french Rafale
1. India already uses french platform
2. The will get technology transfer for the Tjas. much needed jet engine technology where India lacks. Including Indian cruise missiles were a flop without a capable jet engine technology.
3. This is the most important of all the Radar Aesa
4. Ground attack capabilities. India had none before for guided bombs.

Why it made Pakistan's Day
1. It is detectable by every radar Pakistan has even the one from the first world war.
2. India was the the only country left which was not able to reverse engineer the Jet engine technology.
3. Pakistan got Russian sanctions lifted off
4 India will receive it in 2020 when Rafale will be obsolete for rest of the world.
5 2019 PAF is getting first shipment of JF 17 block 3
6 all the infrared missiles Pakistan has are able to bring it down using two image spectrum don't need to send anyone in air to tackle them
7 High radar signature
8 They missed the Russian boat of SU35s
9 Pakistan is focusing on 5++ gen high-h altitude fighter which Pakistan will receive in 2021
10 Pakistan is already making JF17 for the purpose of nuking and bombing India. Pakistan needs Air superiority.
How can Pakistan counter the 36 Rafale. Ans Just kill the 36 Pilots India will train to fly them and they will always stay on ground

 

[amardeep mishra]

To be very honest,PAF lost the edge over IAF the day IAF inducted SU-30MKI. We can wish whatever we like but rafale will further widen up the technological balance in favour of IAF. Rafale+Meteor package is something PAF will have no equivalent in foreseeable future.I am talking purely in terms of capabilities of meteor from BVR perspective.

 

[X-2.]

NEW DELHI: It's finally jet, set and go for the IAF after an agonising wait of 16 years since it first demanded new multi-role fighters. India and France on Friday inked a 7.87 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale fighters, which with their state of the art 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles will have a clear combat edge over Pakistan's F-16 jets.



India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.

Simplistic analogies apart, the Rafale will certainly be a potent force-multiplier for the IAF, capable as it is of also delivering nuclear weapons. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA), inked by defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian here in South Block, does not put any restriction on the fighter being used as a "strategic platform", said sources.

Parrikar himself was quite gung-ho about the deal. "Rafale is a very potent fighter that will add to the IAF's airpower and deep-strike capabilities," he said. Le Drian added, "The Rafale is really the best fighter jet in the world. It is an omni-role aircraft capable of all kinds of missions."French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation's CEO Eric Trappier said the Rafale was more in competition with the American F-35 fifth-generation fighter because it was "a generation ahead" of the F-16. But the Rafales do cost a packet. The fighters themselves may cost around Rs 700 crore a piece. But the per unit cost zooms to Rs 1,640 crore if the overall deal is taken into account, which includes a decidedly deadly weapons package, all spares and costs for 75% fleet availability and "performance-based logistics support" for five years.

Moreover, the Rafales will be tweaked to specific Indian requirements, which range from the capability for "cold start at high-altitude regions like Leh" to Israeli helmet-mounted displays, advanced missile warning and synthetic aperture radars.

Government sources said India had saved+ through some hardnosed bargaining over the original MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft) project be ing negotiated by the previous UPA regime. Moreover, the Rafales will come with much better weapons and maintenance support packages now.

"The Meteor missile is superior to any such missile in the region. The over 300km Scalp air-to ground cruise missile also has two-metre precision capability. Rafale also has a faster turnaround time, capable of undertaking five sorties in a day. The other fighters we have can do only three sorties at the most," said a source.

The Rafale deal also has a 50% offsets clause, under which France will have to plough half of the actual contract value back into India. "This has huge potential to generate direct and indirect employment opportunities in India," he added.Induction of the Rafales will certainly be a strong booster dose for the IAF.

Courtesy TOI

Source: http://nation.com.pk/international/...n-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s

I heard Indians were demanding Rafaels in two years rather in this post it says it will finalise the project in 22
It's long run and pak have long time to counter this

 

[ghazi768]

Would like your input on the topic as well!

It may result in a troll fest but I hope it will be just taken as an opinion.

Rafale, no doubt, is an excellent fighter bomber and technologically ups the ante in our region and will require PAF to work out even more rapidly on its game plan. If I am not mistaken than they are already doing this for more than a year in terms of tactics & weapons.
But, honestly, I am relieved for a number of reasons.

If you cannot achieve overwhelming dominance than you have to play smart, that was our curse. IAF never had to worry about this, they could always go for trying overwhelming majority but somehow they have ceded this. Back in 2000 and later, they had almost 300 fighter bombers dedicated just for attack roles with 100s of other capable of multi-role outclassing us in numbers as well as in bvr combat as we had almost none. Planning against such an overwhelming force was just not daunting but a bloody nightmare. I do not know how those at helms of affairs at that time in PAF would have slept easily at night.

With horns of war sounding, my apologies for being a bit tongue tied. We have a couple of platforms which outclass them in bvr whatever they have got and are excellent in dog fighting as well, what we lack to an extant or want to have is to have them in better numbers. Presently what they have to throw at us, Mig-27s and Jaguars hopelessly obsolete. Mirages, although a lot of fans on this forum, but completely outclassed. You have to take a nose down in a proper military simulation against a 530D to understand why leading algorithms are called leading. There is a reason that IAF is throwing, an eye popping, about 40 mln$ per aircraft for a Mica upgrade for its mirages.

It is more relaxing now especially looking ahead at future. 2 squadrons of Rafales will show up at earliest by 2018, even if they go for further inductions they will ramp up to 100 plus by at most 2025. We'll have a definite surprise by then that they will forget Rafale. But most importantly, their tactical attack squadrons will be far less than we had before to plan for. And chances are now even brighter that they will either ditch Tejas or drag it more into future.