The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[CHI RULES]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Sir, with respect I beg to differ regarding most of your points. I will comment on just few points.

Though 36 is a limited purchase yet these jets may pose big threat to PAF/Pakistan with exception of China. Further they may purchase more in future to pose real challenge to China.

Another point regarding Euro fighter closure is not actually closure as they may not require two platforms having identical capabilities. Further USA is ready to shift F16/F18 manufacturing to India and they may be assumed to be latest blocks.

The bribes are involved in almost all defense deals and stable economy like India will not be effected.

IAF already handling an expensive fighter jet like SU30 so they may done all calculations.

Now it's PAF turn to get modern jet to compete Rafael like Euro Fighter as yet Chinese fighters latest blocks are still maturing. Further PA should get some LRSAMs with modern radars to secure major cities/installations. Pak has time span of about 3-4 years for that.

 

[TsAr]

A query for the Indians members here. Don't you guys think that for 36 planes $7+ billion is a bit costly, India could have looked into some other options.I am not bashing Indian purchase of the Rafale this is just my opinion and would like Indian members of the forum to shed some light on this.


Earlier, Norway voiced plans to procure 52 US combat aircraft, thus becoming one of the biggest F-35 buyers in Europe. According to previous estimates by the Ministry of Defense, the price tag will reach roughly 70 billion NOK (some $8.5 billion),

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160920/1045512120/norway-f35-russia-attack.html

 

[Blue Marlin]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

part a
im sure they do order on blocks. this is a down side actually as you dont get a big discounts as opposed to one large bulk order

part b
thats europe for you, heck everyone thats not a strategic partner. during war time would they continue to supply parts?

part c
yes the fast induction of fith gen fighters is concerning but europe not going anywhere there would upgrade them. heck the french intend to extend the life of the rafale to 2030+ till a 6th gen fighter is ready. same thing applies to us to.

part d
the tejas is meant to replace the mig-21 the rafale would replace the mig27 and the jags.
i will come back to this later.

part e
it was bound to happen the submarines the ships and the engines. india cant make these.

part f
the door closed when we knew from the beginning it was not wort our breath bothering anymore. and focusing on other countries which worked out well with kuwait.

part g
i dont get it sorry

part h
happens everywhere. if theres no bribes then somebody clearly messed up somewhere. but the severity of the bribe is the question one should ask.

the most interesting point i would come to is point d.
the rafale is going to replace the mig-27 and the jags but they have the amca and the russain t-50.
thats 3 massive projects. and thats one to much. one of them would get a massive cut but not the axe.
seeing the rafale deal done for now and the t-50 deal moving along that means the amca is threatened big time here and this falls on to their indigenous engine with a french m88 core and hp turbines.

i could be wrong they could go all out with the amca and cutback on the t-50 as they already been doing. or even cut back on both.

a smart adversary would never harm the adversary directly as this would make them stronger but would give them a trojan which would be great for in this case 10 years but after that, it falls apart.

no need to go for the typhoon. work on the jf-17 and work on the nga( next gen aircraft) as said by your acm

 

[Centurion2016]

India has long history of using French Fighters

Rafale is the latest variant of a long line of French fighters in india

Starting with Ouragans then Mystres , Jaguars & Mirage2000 .

French platforms work

As for Cost .....................IF you want the best .............YOU pay the best money........

If you go cheap ... You are cutting cornors
/
The Pakistanis will have to get used to india buying top of the line hardware as their GDP gallops past all western powers bar USA this next decde or so .

That is not boasting THAT is economic/ military reality

 

[PDF]

PAF will counter Rafale. The question is how? by more f-16 probably as an immediate requirement. The next option will be to get either Typhoon or SU-35 until advancement on 5th Gen aircrafts are done. We need to counter the immense threat of IAF which is currently at advantage with a lot of Su-30s.

 

[Rupeshkumar]

You guys said same about MKI.....then what happened in 2008 is an open secret....anyways that's another story but let's not jump the gun and talk about future, your main concern should be whether the Rafale will even be operational with IAF by 2020.

I dont see a reason that why it wont be operational and even if it becomes operational in 2021 - how would it make a difference from india-pakistan prespective?

 

[TsAr]

Rafale are not meant for this, rather for the Deep strike ground target attack. For A2A conflict role it would be MIG-29/ Mirrage 2000 backed by SU-30 MKI.

I donot doubt the capabilities of the Rafale, it's one hell of a plane and a good addition to the Indian Airforce but if IAF was looking for a Deep strike ground target aircraft then Euro fighter would have been a better choice since its a larger plane and will carry more load. Rafale is light weight and maneuverable and with the Metoer package would be better suited for A2A. Just my 2 cent.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Unless pakistan patches up with America the paf will not be inducting any sophisticated combat aircraft for a while
their hopes rest on china. china's purchases of russian su-35a is not a good omen in the short run

You are wrong...if my predictions are right F 35 will end up in Pakistani stables by 2035.

 

[Centurion2016]

I donot doubt the capabilities of the Rafale, it's one hell of a plane and a good addition to the Indian Airforce but if IAF was looking for a Deep strike ground target aircraft then Euro fighter would have been a better choice since its a larger plane and will carry more load. Rafale is light weight and maneuverable and with the Metoer package would be better suited for A2A. Just my 2 cent.

Typhoon is a air dominance plane period

 

[Trisonics]

A query for the Indians members here. Don't you guys think that for 36 planes $7+ billion is a bit costly, India could have looked into some other options.I am not bashing Indian purchase of the Rafale this is just my opinion and would like Indian members of the forum to shed some light on this.


Earlier, Norway voiced plans to procure 52 US combat aircraft, thus becoming one of the biggest F-35 buyers in Europe. According to previous estimates by the Ministry of Defense, the price tag will reach roughly 70 billion NOK (some $8.5 billion),

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/20160920/1045512120/norway-f35-russia-attack.html

India want's diversification. It is tired of the Russians escalating prices and delaying time lines. France has been a trusted country for such key defense equipment so it was always going to be the French. Although, US-India relations are on a high, India will not buy key defense equipment from them for now.

What this does is deliver a straight forward message to all Counties wanting to sell defense equipment to India that it has several options. Wait and watch how both US and the Russia will now improve their contracts, rules and delivery procedures for India.

We are late but we are getting there. The long negotiation also has a positive, that is, India will not budge easily. It's something every vendor will notice. Our next negotiation, hopefully, has delivered this message and we have also learnt from our own mistakes.

All in all, very positive as far as India is concerned.

 

[Centurion2016]

Eaxctly my point above

India negotiated a very hard thorough deal with France

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is from a naive and novice. I have this question in my mind - if at the end of the day it all boils down to nuke option, what's the point of taking these deals too seriously?? It's like the book has already been cooked for the pre-fixed bottom line while sweating over minute expenses and assets lines...

 

[RAAJ大和]

MY FRIEND CALLED ME AND TOLD ME HEY WATCH YOUR HEAD F-16'S ARE FLYING OVER YOUR HEAD(OFCOURSE I LAUGHED HOW COULD THEY HAVE FLEW HERE IN I-O-K)...JOKES ASIDE...HE TOLD ME THAT RAFALE HAS LESS COMBAT RADIUS THEN F-16 ITS TRUE CHECK IT ON WIKIPEDIA THERE IS NOT SO MUCH DIFFERENCE B/W THE TWO IN TERMS OF SPECIFICATIONS

 

[illusion8]

Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Nice spin...where did you pick this up from?.

 

[X-2.]

Russians are upgrading 250 su30 so I don't think they will Panic as they got there share
Other then this and that we need to counter this by having 20/30 5+gen fighters either from Russia or euro
At least ,as we have 2 years to counter this air deterrence till now our backbone project jf 17 block 3 is doing good and we will have more then 250 jfz
Pak need to work on Turks with TFX as well as keep focus on 5 gen jet