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The increasing responsibility of Pakistan Navy and is it ready?

PN's major and only offensive weapon platform which can hunt and strike remaining undetected for quite some time is the SUBMARINE.

The Submarine VS Strike Aircraft Debate

Pakistan's Submarines will keep IN ships and subs at bay, when PN subs are operating near Pakistan's coastline and protecting Pakistan's EEZ. IN aircrafts like P-8 or any other ASW aircrafts wouldn't dare come near PN subs as the air space would be guarded by F-16's and JF-17's. Submarines possess torpedoes, that can be fired at long range and any angle. The torpedo can also be programmed to lock on, and pursue the acoustic signature of the target ship, if range is exceeded. At longer ranges, they can engage with Harpoon anti-ship missiles, fired from a torpedo tube.

PN submarine will face a tough time against IN's P-8's etc because aircraft can not only provide a longer reach weapon wise, but thanks to sonobuoys and other sensors, allow a firm track on the submarine and at that point, it is nothing more than a slow target which cannot ward off an aircraft through SAM. Pakistan's submarine can be warned off by just dropping an active buoy by IN aircraft in front of submarine and pinging it.

Submarine lacks in speed where as one of the advantages that an aircraft and a surface ship has is speed. While a submarine’s weapons are longer range, a burst of speed can close the distance and mess their targeting solution quickly. Passive targeting involves Target Motion Analysis which works great if the target maintain course and speed, but if the target is constantly changing both, becomes much harder.

The issue with strike aircrafts is that they will be detected by enemy's radar and engaged by IN/IAF aircrafts. So aircrafts lose on the element of surprise, which a submarine posses to its advantage, till of course its discovered and engaged. So submarine has lesser enemies (P-8 and other ASW aircrafts) till its detected where as strike aircrafts will have a large number of IN and IAF aircrafts engaging them as they approach to engage IN Naval targets, apart from other SAM systems which could be ground based or ship based.

True that aircarft have primary anti-air capability and a secondary strike capability, which means thay can conduct CAP's and escort missions and strike ground targets and Naval ships, where as submarines can strike ground and naval targets having no air defence capability. This makes aircrafts a better asset in terms of multi role capability.

Submarines hold a unique advantage, the PN submarine force can keep much of IN surface and submerged elements engaged in anti-submarine warfare for as long as the war continues. Anti-submarine warfare relies on numbers, many ships and aircrafts tasked with finding and fighting one submarine. With the induction of 8 new submarines, this is exactly what PN is hoping for in an event of war. These will be diesel-electric, actually diesel running on batteries are hardest to detect as they will proceed into shallower water and are far quieter. Since they prefer noisier locations, hunting these subs becomes harder.

In IN waters, the stealth profile of PN subs plus the long range that they can operate is the chance that PN could be willing to take by sending a few across and keeping IN tied down as much as it can in protecting its coast, which is in 1000's of Km's. This holds a major disadvantage for IN and major advantage to PN subs.
PN's major and only offensive weapon platform which can hunt and strike remaining undetected for quite some time is the SUBMARINE.

The Submarine VS Strike Aircraft Debate

Pakistan's Submarines will keep IN ships and subs at bay, when PN subs are operating near Pakistan's coastline and protecting Pakistan's EEZ. IN aircrafts like P-8 or any other ASW aircrafts wouldn't dare come near PN subs as the air space would be guarded by F-16's and JF-17's. Submarines possess torpedoes, that can be fired at long range and any angle. The torpedo can also be programmed to lock on, and pursue the acoustic signature of the target ship, if range is exceeded. At longer ranges, they can engage with Harpoon anti-ship missiles, fired from a torpedo tube.

PN submarine will face a tough time against IN's P-8's etc because aircraft can not only provide a longer reach weapon wise, but thanks to sonobuoys and other sensors, allow a firm track on the submarine and at that point, it is nothing more than a slow target which cannot ward off an aircraft through SAM. Pakistan's submarine can be warned off by just dropping an active buoy by IN aircraft in front of submarine and pinging it.

Submarine lacks in speed where as one of the advantages that an aircraft and a surface ship has is speed. While a submarine’s weapons are longer range, a burst of speed can close the distance and mess their targeting solution quickly. Passive targeting involves Target Motion Analysis which works great if the target maintain course and speed, but if the target is constantly changing both, becomes much harder.

The issue with strike aircrafts is that they will be detected by enemy's radar and engaged by IN/IAF aircrafts. So aircrafts lose on the element of surprise, which a submarine posses to its advantage, till of course its discovered and engaged. So submarine has lesser enemies (P-8 and other ASW aircrafts) till its detected where as strike aircrafts will have a large number of IN and IAF aircrafts engaging them as they approach to engage IN Naval targets, apart from other SAM systems which could be ground based or ship based.

True that aircarft have primary anti-air capability and a secondary strike capability, which means thay can conduct CAP's and escort missions and strike ground targets and Naval ships, where as submarines can strike ground and naval targets having no air defence capability. This makes aircrafts a better asset in terms of multi role capability.

Submarines hold a unique advantage, the PN submarine force can keep much of IN surface and submerged elements engaged in anti-submarine warfare for as long as the war continues. Anti-submarine warfare relies on numbers, many ships and aircrafts tasked with finding and fighting one submarine. With the induction of 8 new submarines, this is exactly what PN is hoping for in an event of war. These will be diesel-electric, actually diesel running on batteries are hardest to detect as they will proceed into shallower water and are far quieter. Since they prefer noisier locations, hunting these subs becomes harder.

In IN waters, the stealth profile of PN subs plus the long range that they can operate is the chance that PN could be willing to take by sending a few across and keeping IN tied down as much as it can in protecting its coast, which is in 1000's of Km's. This holds a major disadvantage for IN and major advantage to PN subs.
Thanks for the detailed answer and it does highlight a need of more aircraft for coastal and waters defence.
 
Thanks for the detailed answer and it does highlight a need of more aircraft for coastal and waters defence.

Twin Heavies are required, no doubt.

2 Sqdns for the Navy
1 Sqdn for the AF

This is a min. The sooner they do it, the better it would be.

Btw what do you make of tornadoes?

Not tornadoes. Those F-16 Block 60's, yes. Similar plane as of PAF's but with different electronic structure inviting new strategies and tactics .
 
Not tornadoes. Those F-16 Block 60's, yes. Similar plane as of PAF's but with different electronic structure inviting new strategies and tactics .
Does F16 have the long range strike ability?
Even with aerial refuelling I doubt it. Their range will be just about or slightly better than MiG 29 Ks
We need a longer range, maybe the conformal tanks increase it but do not know if it is enough
 
Not tornadoes. Those F-16 Block 60's, yes. Similar plane as of PAF's but with different electronic structure inviting new strategies and tactics .
Blk 60 is out of production, Blk 70 if you are interested.
 
Naval folks also talk about tonnage so in term of tonnage

So new acq

1. 4000 ton x4 type 54 eq 16k tonnage
2. 8x 2600 tonnage eq 20800 tones subs
3. 1x 17k tons supply ship
4. 4x 600 tons fac eq 2400 tons

5. 4 x ~2000 tons new ships based on turkey design eq 8k

6. 2x 1900-2300 ?? tons opv eq 3800 tons

Total ...

This would be first time pn will have over 12 ships or surface fleet > =2000 tons
 
yes indeed you have got nothing better to do than kill civillians and here is every one calling us and the yanks monsters.......
Please refer to Tony Blair apology about attacking Iraq
It is interesting nobody in this World said anything after this admission of killing innocents for no reason. All Monarchs, dictators and so called political leaders of Muslim majority countries are busy trying to prolong their rule and fighting with other Muslim countries do not care about anything else.
At least Mr Blair had the guts to admit it.
 
No money for Ships , the current plan is enough

If we have 10-15 ships and 10-15 Submarines it is sufficient for now
 
PN's major and only offensive weapon platform which can hunt and strike remaining undetected for quite some time is the SUBMARINE.

The Submarine VS Strike Aircraft Debate

Pakistan's Submarines will keep IN ships and subs at bay, when PN subs are operating near Pakistan's coastline and protecting Pakistan's EEZ. IN aircrafts like P-8 or any other ASW aircrafts wouldn't dare come near PN subs as the air space would be guarded by F-16's and JF-17's. Submarines possess torpedoes, that can be fired at long range and any angle. The torpedo can also be programmed to lock on, and pursue the acoustic signature of the target ship, if range is exceeded. At longer ranges, they can engage with Harpoon anti-ship missiles, fired from a torpedo tube.

PN submarine will face a tough time against IN's P-8's etc because aircraft can not only provide a longer reach weapon wise, but thanks to sonobuoys and other sensors, allow a firm track on the submarine and at that point, it is nothing more than a slow target which cannot ward off an aircraft through SAM. Pakistan's submarine can be warned off by just dropping an active buoy by IN aircraft in front of submarine and pinging it.

Submarine lacks in speed where as one of the advantages that an aircraft and a surface ship has is speed. While a submarine’s weapons are longer range, a burst of speed can close the distance and mess their targeting solution quickly. Passive targeting involves Target Motion Analysis which works great if the target maintain course and speed, but if the target is constantly changing both, becomes much harder.

The issue with strike aircrafts is that they will be detected by enemy's radar and engaged by IN/IAF aircrafts. So aircrafts lose on the element of surprise, which a submarine posses to its advantage, till of course its discovered and engaged. So submarine has lesser enemies (P-8 and other ASW aircrafts) till its detected where as strike aircrafts will have a large number of IN and IAF aircrafts engaging them as they approach to engage IN Naval targets, apart from other SAM systems which could be ground based or ship based.

True that aircarft have primary anti-air capability and a secondary strike capability, which means thay can conduct CAP's and escort missions and strike ground targets and Naval ships, where as submarines can strike ground and naval targets having no air defence capability. This makes aircrafts a better asset in terms of multi role capability.

Submarines hold a unique advantage, the PN submarine force can keep much of IN surface and submerged elements engaged in anti-submarine warfare for as long as the war continues. Anti-submarine warfare relies on numbers, many ships and aircrafts tasked with finding and fighting one submarine. With the induction of 8 new submarines, this is exactly what PN is hoping for in an event of war. These will be diesel-electric, actually diesel running on batteries are hardest to detect as they will proceed into shallower water and are far quieter. Since they prefer noisier locations, hunting these subs becomes harder.

In IN waters, the stealth profile of PN subs plus the long range that they can operate is the chance that PN could be willing to take by sending a few across and keeping IN tied down as much as it can in protecting its coast, which is in 1000's of Km's. This holds a major disadvantage for IN and major advantage to PN subs.
But subs at border of water terrirtoy would be dangerous. AsubW Aircrafts do have ranges about which they can attack subs. P8s will flew with Mig 29Ks escorts and possibly IAF SU 30s. PAF will be in great burden as it need to secure all Pakistan as it is not in good numbers. Moreover Mig 29Ks may flew from Air craft carrier and give escorts to P8s and come quickly at our water territory, sink a sub or two which are at our border of territorial waters and flew back before PAF jets come to rescue
 
Does F16 have the long range strike ability?
Even with aerial refuelling I doubt it. Their range will be just about or slightly better than MiG 29 Ks
We need a longer range, maybe the conformal tanks increase it but do not know if it is enough
C/D Block 52+
E/F Block 60.

Harpoon's range is in excess of 100km. how far do you want to strike?
 
C/D Block 52+
E/F Block 60.

Harpoon's range is in excess of 100km. how far do you want to strike?
When all ports are out of range of MiG 29k stand off weapons and the IN Guided Missile Destroyers cannot target Pak coast.
 
When all ports are out of range of MiG 29k stand off weapons and the IN Guided Missile Destroyers cannot target Pak coast.
PN submarines are for that job. Rest PAF CAP's will ensure.

I was thinking in offense though, not defense. Defense is easy.
 
PN submarines are for that job. Rest PAF CAP's will ensure.

I was thinking in offense though, not defense. Defense is easy.
The submarines will need help from planes and in order to prevent a blockade this will be needed to deal with the IN surface vessels. Remember Poseidon need to be countered to protect subs
 

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