The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[gambit]

How can muslims in general particularly American muslims share collective responsibility for the 9/11 Attacks?

Who is saying muslims in America must? Before Sept 11, 2001, America was indifferent to Islam. To %99.999 of Americans, Islam was just another religion that any celebrity could indulge himself to attract attention, like how the Beatles took up Hare Krishna. Since then, America is at best ambivalent about Islam. The source of that ambivalence came from the fact that while we were indifferent about Islam, some muslims were not indifferent about US and attacked US in the name of Islam, so there is now an internal conflict between our respect for the freedom of religion and our dead who were victims of members of a religion acting in the name of their religion. Between now and then, despite that ambivalence, we elected a President who made no secret of his muslim past and even had a 'muslim' sounding name.

Here is something for you to consider...That in a secular state, it is not good for any religion to draw negative attention to itself. Look at Europe and see the evidence. The Euros are beginning to feel threatened. They will call upon their own religious past as part of the intellectual and moral defense of their societies.

 

[muse]

Gambit

The difference between the US and Europe is "Freedom of Religion" and Freedom From Religion"

Some in the US have sought to circumvent Congress - they know that congress will not, cannot mandate a state religion - so they hope to go the Indian route, that is to argue majoritarism under the guise of culture - but Congress cannot mandate a state culture either - in fact opposer have no constitutional recourse but there is a great deal of manuvering (legal) still left to go.

I hope it's a long drawn out and highly bitter and hard fought struggle and that there will be many more like it -- For US Muslims their recourse to constitutional gaurantees will ensure that when the mask of the opposers fall, it will be crushed to bits -- of course this is a high risk strategy fo rthe opposers, because WHEN they lose, they will lose big - read policy changes in some places they may not have considered. ADL, you listening?

 

[Razavi]

They have the right to build whatever they want. In America's history these kind of things are never a problem. All Israeli lobby is working behind of it.

 

[Solomon2]

In America's history these kind of things are never a problem. All Israeli lobby is working behind of it.

Careful. You don't want to insult the non-Jewish families of the 9-11 dead. Or do you?

 

[GreenStar]

Careful. You don't want to insult the non-Jewish families of the 9-11 dead. Or do you?

Well it is true Mr Soloman, that the people who are against the construction of the Mosque are Isreali backed lobbies.

 

[Solomon2]

Well it is true Mr Soloman, that the people who are against the construction of the Mosque are Isreali backed lobbies.

And even if true, how is this relevant to the question at hand?

 

[GreenStar]

I think building this Mosque...will strengthen the relationship, bewteen American Muslims and ordinary American's. This whole issue is hyped up, 9/11 although very sad, is the thing of the past, people need to move on...things have changed since then.

 

[Solomon2]

I think building this Mosque...will strengthen the relationship, bewteen American Muslims and ordinary American's -

How do you figure that? Remember, this isn't just a mosque, it's billed as a Muslim-oriented community center. In theory it will be open to all faiths, so that pools, recreational facilities, etc. will be a place where everyone can mix, but the huge Muslim Community Center not far from me was built on the same promise, yet in practice the fun facilities aren't advertised and folks who rent the halls (regardless of faith) are instructed, "When there is a call for prayer (adhan), everyone is requested to proceed to the Masjid for prayers." link

The impression created - knowingly, I'm afraid, because of the contrasting Jewish and Christian community center models that do exist - isn't one of sharing community, but alienation. Given such an example near the nation's capital, why should Americans expect Cordoba House will be any better?

 

[muse]

fareed Zakaria, favored Muslim of the US media, riled his GPS viewers today, when he highlighted the fact that even Hibzollah has supported the renovation of a Jewish temple in Beirut - Hibzollah, Zakaria said, had no problem with jews but the state of Israel -- he made those comments in the context of the controversy some bigoted elements and so called conservative politicians have created in NY.

Zakaria said that perhaps there is a lesson in this for Americans - who it seems have lost confidence in themselves, in their principles, in their constitution, in their ability to be their own masters.

If such an America, a America that "feels" the need to betray herself is allowed to congtinue to take center stage and defame US as a international bigot, then some can claim with justification, that US has lost it's moral compass.

I have said it before, regaining this moral compass will be very difficult, just look at the experience of Pakistan and India and US should find these examples of failure to stand up for their own principles, as instructive.

Today, in these threads some compare the US with third world nations - this is a TRAGEDY!! US must let this depression end and regain her sense of dignity - her dignity, her principles, her law, her constitution.

 

[gambit]

Gambit

The difference between the US and Europe is "Freedom of Religion" and Freedom From Religion"

And in America we have both.

Some in the US have sought to circumvent Congress - they know that congress will not, cannot mandate a state religion...

Who dat? Please give a recent example. I want to see names of individuals and organizations that want to establish a state religion. In order to 'circumvent' there must be barriers and barriers do not exist unless there is a goal. That mean someone out there has the goal of establishing a state religion, found barriers and now is seeking alternative methods. I want to see names.

- so they hope to go the Indian route, that is to argue majoritarism under the guise of culture - but Congress cannot mandate a state culture either - in fact opposer have no constitutional recourse but there is a great deal of manuvering (legal) still left to go.

I hope it's a long drawn out and highly bitter and hard fought struggle and that there will be many more like it -- For US Muslims their recourse to constitutional gaurantees will ensure that when the mask of the opposers fall, it will be crushed to bits -- of course this is a high risk strategy fo rthe opposers, because WHEN they lose, they will lose big - read policy changes in some places they may not have considered. ADL, you listening?

The US Congress have no power to legislate a 'state culture' any more than it could legislate where the sun rises and sets. Anywhere you go you will find a dominant culture, even in countries like the Swiss where they proudly tout their secularism. What you either missed or ignored is that for Americans who oppose this triumphalist symbol to the 2-1 ratio, when it comes to the legality of the issue, those who are in the 'two' category acknowledged, also 2-1 ratio, that the muslims are fully within their legal rights to build, once all legal requirements such as zoning and construction related are satisfied. But just as the muslims are legally within their rights to build, those who oppose the construction of this triumphalist symbol are also within their Constitutional rights to express their displeasure. And quite often opinions can produce results other than what legalism can.

The long term consequence for Islam in America will be negative after the construction of this triumphalist symbol. As if the hole where the WTC towers once stood and the current controversy regarding their memorial status is not painful enough for New Yorkers, American tourists from other parts of the country will also be reminded of that day when they walk by that 'in-your-face' triumphalist symbol. They will form opinions, to varying degrees, as to the callousness of its location and they will take those opinions back to wherever 'ignorant redneck' region they came from. It is telling that local muslims are hesitant about this mosque but far off muslims are eager and strident about it.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Yes some people who actually did find out without prejudice about Islam and muslims agree that Islam was not responsible for these terrorist acts and that collectively victimising the entire Muslim community for the acts commited by someone is wrong. These people include Christians and Jews and people of all faiths. More power to them

Ofcourse you have the other set of people who claimg to have "learnt about Islam" from hatewebsites making good money by duping the gullible. They make "knowledgable" statements like Islam is a cult, Muslims worship a Monkey God and Muslims are just Nazis of the Middle East out to take over America starting with building their symbol of victory. I say God help them.



I am just surprised by similar "analogies" because it reveals more about the thought process of the person than anything else. Similar examples of Japanese and Nazis are given.

Your example here would be accurate if Al Qaeda was building the community centre in lower manhattan, and I would be the first to oppose it andmost likely every muslim living in NYC or American would. It might have some semblance if some sort of ideologue that supports Al Qaeda like Anwar Al-awlaki e.t.c. would have done it. Not a person who was in frontline post9/11 relief operations and worked with the FBI on anti-terror cases as any patriotic American and devout muslim would.

Muslims are the biggest victims of Al Qaeda's attacks. Not non-muslims. 90% of those killed by Al Qaeda's attacks are muslims and these are confirmed by none other than US agencies. It will be the muslim community that has suffered more than the American non-muslim community till date that will consider it abhorent for a centre to built by Al Qaeda. The community in religous terms that has suffered the most from Al Qaeda are the muslims themselves if you look at the statistics rather than the media brouhaha.



How can muslims in general particularly American muslims share collective responsibility for the 9/11 Attacks? There was a specific group that was part of it. It was not like 1.8Billion people around the world just decided one day that lets attack NYC. Muslims are no monoliths just like Chrisitans or Jews are not. Muslims are just like any average Christian or Jew at the end of the day. You have thousands of Christians who make 9/11 documentaries who deny the muslims were behind the attack and it was inside job. Doesn't mean that they are right.

But the muslims that matter, those running the Saudi govt for example have accepted it and that is where you should base your judgement on. Itis thanks to them that the OBL ideology has been defeated in the muslim world. BEing that as it may it never had a theological base to ever stand up with.

And have you forgotted the admissions made by Robert Gates and Hillary Clinton, that US should share responsibility for nuturing these "terror groups" in the first place in the Cold War against Communism. The time when Ronald Reagon dedicated the launch of Apollo to the mujahideen in Afghanistan?

Muslims around the world had no input in Al Qaeda's thinking and decision making body. No one in Alqaeda came to say India or Indonesia or Turkey explaining their foreign policy on how to attack US to gain acceptance. They could not even proove their assertion of legitimising killing of civilians (Which William Casey of the CIA agreed to in Afghanistan against the Russian advisers btw) in the light of Islamic theology. OBL and Zawahiri were a bussinesman and a medical doctor. They had NO credibility in discussing Islamic theology.


Muslims around the world and any sensible non-muslim would rightly feel offended in saying that Al-Qaeda's action ( agroup that at its peak had about 2000 dedicated members allegedly) is supported by Muslims even ideologically when 90% of its victims are muslims themselves worldwide.

Like I have said before this project has far lost its value of being a death blow to Alqaeda which it would have been if it was built in a welcoming manner. American and the American muslim communitey has missed a big oppurtunity here. There was some sensible debate about sentiments of the people and renaming of community centre to Park51 e.t.c. Open house to the centre and open debates would have helped in tackling the concerns of these people. Just like various local Jewish and Christian groups supported the project. But thanks to the right wing nut jobs who reduced it to a debate of Nazis and Cult who worships Monkey Gods. There is no way anyone can engage honestly in such a debate now. Particularly now that some politicans have found it easier to talk about this than the economy, jobs or climate change.


Being from India, I am fully aware of the disastrous consequences of politicsing religious issues. Many of my Indian forum members would agree how emotional and divisive issues pertaining to religion can be. That is why I am saddened that the US which was always a model in terms of faith based societies can act openly unlike say France or Turkey where religious expression is supressed.


I personally think now that there should be a moratorium on the project. It was going to cost 100 million because the people wanted to add facilities that would server the lower manhattan region irrespective of faith but that can wait. I base this on the part experience of the media scare about the "Mega Mosque" in london. Even though the muslims there had all the laws on thier side, because of the communities outburst they stopped the project and later canned it. No reason was given, similarly here let the Americans for themselves decide why a project that was to host a memorial to the victims of 9/11 to honor their loved ones; by a community that suffers 90% of the victims in Al Qaeda attacks todate; that has been dubbed Alqaeda's worst nightmare was stopped. Ofcourse I would still thank those who supported the centre and the intiative despite all the hostility it generated.

Beautiful post matey.

 

[gambit]

I personally think now that there should be a moratorium on the project.

Miss USA Rima Fakih opposes mosque at Ground Zero | Mizoram Express

“I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on Constitutional rights of freedom of religion,” the New York Post quoted Fakih as telling Inside Edition during an interview.

“I also agree that it shouldn’t be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion,” she added.

And she is a brunette to boot...!!! How can muslims refused such beauty's opinion...???

 

[GentlemanObserver]

^ 1 vs many? How is that democratic? But lets see how this plays out!

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Why theres so much prick for a mosque to be built there .. i knw sm retards even dnt voted for Obama just because they thought he was a Muzlum .. What a shame that how people in US despite being educated misinterpret the basic facts and build a certin POV yet there government bombs others for the very same crime .. !!!

 

[muse]

As we have argued before, since the opposers don't have, and cannot hope to have any kind of constitutional backing for their negative position as opposers, they have resorted to the argument of "dominant culture" -- in their recourse to "dominant culture", opposers conspire to create a paralell paradigm where they hope to propose that the "dominant culture" argument can do without recourse to the constitution, that opposers can tell other Americans what to think and what kind of attitudes to hold as "appropriate".

As an example of the "appropriate" the opposers argue that building the Islamic center is "insensitive" -- think about that, Will opposers next say that Jews should go without the Yarmukha, because these "Christ Killers" are being "insensitive" to the "dominant culture", will these Blacks not learn to stay in their own neighborhoods, I mean how "insensitive" of these blacks to move into neighborhoods where they are not "dominant", and think about this argument when it comes to jobs -- unfortunately for the opposers, the legal system has visited these social vices before, opposers hope the public will be more angry, more emotional than reasonable - and this approach has been successful before - but not before the law.

The greater the desperation of opposers, the more strenuous their efforts against US Muslims, and while they may succeed in some instances, over all, the efforts of the oposers ensure that more and more America becomes aware of US Muslims and Islam and it's recourse to the law and it's appeal to a decent America - so the greater the opposers effort, the closer and the deeper the integration of America and US Muslims, and the more distant between the attitudes and the kinds of policies the opposers favor.