The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[Solomon2]

You have not quite understood what the opposers are about, the real aim of the opposers is to continue to ensure that Islam and Muslim are synonomous with terrorism and terrorists -

There seems to be some sort of perception gap of the politics here. Currently, if the those in FAVOR of Cordoba House go forward, then it WILL be perceived "that Islam and Muslim are synonomous with terrorism and terrorists". I'd like that to change.

For my money, "bring it on" - see, hostility towards Islam, fear of Islam and Muslims in the US, if the polls presented by the opposers are a indication, is widespread -- and the there are going to many many more such struggles ahead - but with each struggle, the opposers get weaker -

You've got this backwards, too. With each perceived display of Muslim insensitivity hostility to Muslims and Islam grows. The surest indication of this is that anti-Muslim commentators on the far right fringe suddenly have a much larger audience now.

the American public is essentially a decent public and then there is the LAW -

Sure, the law says Cordoba House can be built. It's just that a sizable section of the U.S. public sees doing so as indecent.

 

[muse]

There seems to be some sort of perception gap of the politics here. Currently, if the those in FAVOR of Cordoba House go forward, then it WILL be perceived "that Islam and Muslim are synonomous with terrorism and terrorists".

These threats seem to be all the opposers are left with - they started out conflating Islam with terrorism, their backfoot positon is that if they fail in persuading the public that the constitution not apply to Islam and Muslims, then Islam and Muslims will synonomous with terrorism and terrorists - no, that dog won't hunt either.

There are many many more struggles ahead, with each struggle, those who hope to use this controversy and the media created perception that Islam and Muslims are other than full Americans, find it difficult to justify their position, and lose more and more credibility.

The struggle has a long, long way to go, and yet opposers are now reduced to threats.

 

[gambit]

.


An interesting comment. Whose "we"? To what lows will opposers stoop to? Live and learn -- First they opposed the Islamic center with the argument that Islam is Terrorism - now they hope to spread fear of Al-Qaida and say that there is widespread support for Al-Qaida among Muslims -

Everyone. We are not interested ONLY the active strength of al-Qaeda fighters. The US military, including the Reserves and National Guards forces, are about 3 million. Where do you think these men and women come from? Now where do you think al-Qaeda fighters come from? Christians? Buddhists? Rastafarians?

 

[Solomon2]

These threats seem to be all the opposers are left with -

Threats?

...they started out conflating Islam with terrorism -

Why blame them, since for so many Americans their first exposure to Islam and the acts of those claiming to be Muslims was 9-11?

their backfoot positon is that if they fail in persuading the public that the constitution not apply to Islam and Muslims -

Of course, the Constitution applies to Islam and Muslims. Is there some reason in your mind it shouldn't?

- then Islam and Muslims will synonomous with terrorism and terrorists - no, that dog won't hunt either...with each struggle, those who hope to use this controversy...find it difficult to justify their position, and lose more and more credibility...opposers are now reduced to threats.

I think you are blind to the political reality I'm trying to present to you.

 

[gambit]

Saudi Landmark Commission Approves New Mecca Synagogue | World
The Mecca Synagogue and Jewish Cultural Center, a 13-story Jewish cultural center proposed for a site two blocks from Mecca, an Islamic holy site, cleared its likely final hurdle when the Mecca and Medina Landmarks and Preservation Commission voted 9-0 to deny protected landmark status to the building currently occupying the site, a "I Hate The Jews" t-shirt stand.


The decision is believed to be the last legal impediment to the project going forward. The commission, whose 11 members are all appointed by Saudi King Abdullah, held its meeting yesterday morning in lower Mecca, in the shadow of the Masjid al-Haram.


Commission member Ahmed Al-Alawiwi was willing to acknowledge the controversy surrounding the proposal, saying that the building near the mosque, is a part of Islam's holy site. But Al-Alawiwi said that connection was not enough to warrant landmark status.

“One cannot designate hundreds of buildings on that criteria alone. We do not landmark the sky,” he said. "Unless there are Israeli F-15's in the area."


Mayor Muhammad Bloomamunda applauded the commission’s decision, saying in a speech on soon after the vote that the issue touched on the foundations of Islam.

"It's all about tolerance, Islam is a religion of tolerance. And peace," Bloomamunda said. "Right?"

"You better say 'right' or we will kill you all," Bloomamunda said. "Have a nice day."

That is funny. Now we need someone to write one up about a museum in the ME honoring the Crusades.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

LOL i can't believe people are holding all Muslims accountable for the acts of the few... Last i checked the entire German populace was not tried at Nuremberg...

 

[muse]

Gambit

You say:

we have no idea as to the extent of numerical and ideological support. The fact that there are al-Qaeda's cells in every muslim country should tell us that al-Qaeda's version of political Islam is popular and enjoys considerable numerical support

How then do you respond to this :

New Estimate of Strength of Al Qaeda Is Offered
By DAVID E. SANGER and MARK MAZZETTI
Published: June 30, 2010
ASPEN, Colo. — Michael E. Leiter, one of the country’s top counterterrorism officials, said Wednesday that American intelligence officials now estimated that there were somewhat “more than 300” Qaeda leaders and fighters hiding in Pakistan’s tribal areas, a rare public assessment of the strength of the terrorist group that is the central target of President Obama’s war strategy.

Taken together with the recent estimate by the C.I.A. director, Leon E. Panetta, that there are about 50 to 100 Qaeda operatives now in Afghanistan, American intelligence agencies believe that there are most likely fewer than 500 members of the group in a region where the United States has poured nearly 100,000 troops.

Many American officials warn about such comparisons, saying that Al Qaeda has forged close ties with a number of affiliated militant groups and that a large American troop presence is necessary to helping the Afghan government prevent Al Qaeda from gaining a safe haven in Afghanistan similar to what it had before the Sept. 11 attacks.

The you hope wrapping yourself in the flag will help you evade, so US is at war with Islam, at least to your thinking, right? :

The US military, including the Reserves and National Guards forces, are about 3 million. Where do you think these men and women come from? Now where do you think al-Qaeda fighters come from? Christians? Buddhists? Rastafarians

?


Sol

I think you are blind to the political reality I'm trying to present to you

What you are presenting is just one facet, not the totality of the politics -- I am focusing on a much larger on going struggle, not just the Islamic center. When, not "if" the dam bursts, Sol, where will opposers and their agenda be?

If US Muslims fail before the law and public opinion, they will not have lost anything (politically) and with every struggle, with every legal challenge, they become stronger - with implications for opposers and the policies they support - that too is a facet of political reality that you may not be as aware as I wish you will be in the near future.

 

[gambit]

Gambit

You say:




How then do you respond to this :



The you hope wrapping yourself in the flag will help you evade, so US is at war with Islam, at least to your thinking, right? :

I do not need to have any response. Mustafa Setmariam Nasar, nom-de-guerre Abu Musab al-Suri, wrote a highly popular 1600 page response titled 'The Call to Global Islamic Resistance'. Analysts call it the manual for self-starting a jihad.

 

[Solomon2]

What you are presenting is just one facet, not the totality of the politics -- I am focusing on a much larger on going struggle, not just the Islamic center.

What "larger on going struggle" do you have in mind?

If US Muslims fail before the law and public opinion, they will not have lost anything (politically) and with every struggle, with every legal challenge, they become stronger - with implications for opposers and the policies they support - that too is a facet of political reality that you may not be as aware as I wish you will be in the near future.

I think it depends on what faction of "US Muslims" you are talking about:

In 1993, I headed up a prosecution team that was preparing to try the “Blind Sheikh” Omar Abdel Rahman and eleven other jihadists for conducting a terrorist war against the United States. The case revealed this country’s Muslim divide.

On one side were patriotic American Muslims, without whom successful prosecution would have been impossible. Not only did they infiltrate the terror cells, they helped us shape the resulting evidence into a compelling narrative. On the other side were the Muslim Brotherhood’s satellites. These included outfits like CAIR (the Council on American-Islamic Relations), which was formed in 1994 by the Brotherhood’s Hamas-support wing, with seed money from an Islamic “charity” — the Holy Land Foundation — later shut down for financing foreign terrorist organizations. These Brotherhood satellites purport to speak for American Muslims. In fact, they speak for anti-American Muslims, most of whom are outside the United States -

 

[muse]

What "larger on going struggle

To a section of US opinion makers and intellectuals and politiicans of a certain stripe, it is very important to ensure that Islam and Muslims of the US continue to be seen through the lens of terrorism and terrorist - This narrative continues to paint Islam as terrorism and Muslims as terrorists and certainly not "American" this effort to deconflate these which I am referring to as the larger struggle for US Muslims.

When, notice not "if", but when, this dam bursts, and I will be the first to concede that the current Islamic center controversy may not be such a catylst, but certainly there is no dearth of opposition to Islam and Muslims in the US and these kinds of oppositon, because they are born out of anger, hatred and fear, basically emotions, will provide ample opportunity for such a catylst to present itself -- and When it does, the implications for those who have positioned themselves as opposers and for the policy objectives they support, will not be "favorable".

Instead of behaving as one, opposers have chosen to break US society into little sections, imagining that they will not be confined to a little section themselves (see ADL) are they being myopic? timistic? I thnk so.

 

[dabong1]

Already posted this pic but i think its more relevant here.

 

[afriend]

I think we should not have mosque so near to that site where islamic terorrists killed innocent in the name of islam..!!! so atleast for the victims family who have nothing to do with the greatness of islam it would feel like an insult.!!! The people who follow religion needs to follow it responsibily else they cannot blame the world for the hate others may have against it. The point is religion is good but the people are not..!! So respect the sentiments of the victims families..!!!

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I am completely understanding the sentiments expressed by the victims families. They are right that no mosque should be built on sacred ground...

Just three things:

1. It's no where near ground zero:

2. Why blame Muslims for the acts committed by terrorists, the people who committed those acts did not do it in my name nor the religion i follow. Why persecute an entire religion and its followers? Surely that will only breed further hatred and achieve the terrorists goal of segregating the Muslims in a US vs Them attitude.

3. If building on sacred land is the issue, why build anything on it? and how many native American burial grounds have been desecrated in the name of development? Surely those too were "sacred" surely those native Americans too had their sentiments "trodden" by the "foreigners"..

--

 

[afriend]

I am completely understanding the sentiments expressed by the victims families. They are right that no mosque should be built on sacred ground...

Just three things:

1. It's no where near ground zero:

2. Why blame Muslims for the acts committed by terrorists, the people who committed those acts did not do it in my name nor the religion i follow. Why persecute an entire religion and its followers? Surely that will only breed further hatred and achieve the terrorists goal of segregating the Muslims in a US vs Them attitude.

3. If building on sacred land is the issue, why build anything on it? and how many native American burial grounds have been desecrated in the name of development? Surely those too were "sacred" surely those native Americans too had their sentiments "trodden" by the "foreigners"..

--

YouTube- Inside Story - Barack Obama and US Muslims

YouTube- Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10

you are right paladin it will only fuel the us vs them attitude.. but some where muslims have to let go of their vicitim attitude.. you said many sacred buriel grounds gave way to development.. so the USA is not a society based on religion it seems. So lets not make it a religious one, and accept the sentiments of the people. coz what happend there at newyork was a fact and nobody can say that those are the acts of just few.. we all should take responsibilty for the stupid acts of some and say yes AS YOU WISH brother.. if you confront the VICTIMS the situation is going to be -ve. coz losing at times is equlent to winning and it will only enhance the greatness of a religion.

 

[nicamarvin]

I say build the mosque..........We americans come from different backgrounds, let the muslims be happy........