The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[EjazR]

@EjazR:If what you are telling is True(70% kashmiris supporting secular..) ,then fine.
BUT - I don't think the truth can be altered.From 1990s to Present Scenario ,There is a great brain-wash happened(and Happening still) which prevents many kashmiri muslims to be in sync with National Stream.

Its not what I think or what I am telling, its what the opinion poll conducted by an independant group - The people of J&K are saying.
So we have to get out of this hype that the media creates. There are many myths that have to be broken and the Indian media has'nt done a good job in this regard.

Also just because there is madrassha running in J&K that does'nt mean that they are fanatics. This is another myth -that all mullas are crazies- that has to be demolished.
Again please read the reports to continue meaningful discussion.

@brahmastra: I hope you edit your post as jokes/diatribes such as these don't help.

 

[dabong1]

And where exactly is this "liberated kashmir" ?

Well you see it as pakistani occupied kashmir while i see it as liberated kashmir......better off if we both refer to it as "Indian administered kashmir" and "Pakistan administered Kashmir" or we can stick to our rigid stances and go round and round.

 

[dabong1]

Not sure which post you were referring too.

1.The president of kashmir is rotated every year between the indian and pakistan president.

This will give power to the pak-indo govts to keep a check on kashmir and will increase understanding and cooperation between the two nations.
You might not want a pakistani as the president of "indian" kashmir for a year but do not forget that the "pakistani" kashmiris will have to be under a indian president also for a year.

2.All three flags flown on public buildings.

A nice fudging of the issue with the indian flag flying high in muzzafrabad alongside the pak and kashmir flag and vice versa the pakistani flag flying high in srinagar alongside the indo-kashmir flag.
At least when the army men on either side of the border said that there nations flag will be flying high on the other side they will be proved correct but not in they way the thought.


3.Kashmir to have no military-foreign postions......the kashmiri wishes are represented through the indian-pak embassies.

4.elected memebers of the kashmir parliment are represented in the pak-india parliments.

6.People with pakistani-indian passports keep the same documentation but are issued a kashmir citizen card.

9.Kashmiris on the indian side participate in the the indian election and send representatives to the indian parliment

10.The kashmiris on the pakistani side participate in the pakistani election and send representatives to the pak parliment.

11.The people of kashmir also have kashmir specfic elections where non military-foreign issues are debated in the kashmir

All the above are to do with letting indians know that issue of "secular" india and the fear that every other state in india will want to independent if the kashmiris get there way is put to rest.
The kashmiris hold indian passports,take part in indian state elections ect should be enough for the indians to keep thinking off them as "indian kashmiris".


5.Pakistan pays for the resettling of hindu kashmiri refugees and india pays for the resettling of muslim kashmiri refugees and both pay towards the sikh refugees to be resettled.

We could use this issue to show the goodwill between the two nations and give a boost to the final settlement.


7.Merge the two police forces.

A way for the indians to keep a track on whats going on pak kashmir and vice versa......it will build trust as each can make sure that kashmir is not being used to undermine either nation.

8.Both currencies can be used in kashmir....dual pricing like you have on any holiday location.

Very easy to do.

 

[dabong1]

Kashmir belongs To INDIA.. Funny Proof

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.

A representative from India began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tellyou something about Rishi Kashyap of Kashmir, after whom Kashmir is named.

When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath.'

He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water.

When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Pakistani had stolen them.'

The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren't there then.'

The Indian representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.'

And they say Kashmir belongs to them...


lolz.......................................................................................

Whats funnier is that they should have asked the indian if there was a country called the Republic of India back then.

Kashmir belong to the kashmiris........if the choose to merge with pakistan good but if the choose to merge with india we also have no problem.....are you willing to risk on a free vote in kashmir?

 

[waqasjj]

I think kashmir future should be what Kashmiris want.Am i right?

 

[duhastmish]

Obama refuses mediation on Kashmir

Ruling out any American mediation on Kashmir issue, US President Barack Obama has said dialogue is the best way to reduce tension between India and Pakistan.

"I believe that there are opportunities, maybe not starting with Kashmir but starting with other issues, that Pakistan and India can be in a dialogue together and over time to try to reduce tensions and find areas of common interest," Obama told Pakistan's Dawn TV in an interview.

The answer from Obama came in response to a question as why his Administration has been silent on Kashmir, after he initially mentioned it.

"Well, I don't think that we have been silent on the fact that India is a great friend of the United States and Pakistan is a great friend of the United States, and it always grieves us to see friends fighting. And we can't dictate to Pakistan or India how they should resolve their differences, but we know that both countries would prosper if those differences are resolved," Obama said.

Categorically ruling out any mediation between India and Pakistan, Obama said: "We want to be helpful in that process, but I don't think it's appropriate for us to be the mediators in that process. I think that this is something that the Pakistanis and Indians can take leadership on."

When asked, if has asked India to resume dialogue with Pakistan, Obama said: "Well, what we have said is that we think that all of South Asia would benefit by reduced tensions between India and Pakistan."

Obama had recently sent a letter to the Prime Minister, which was delivered by the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, William Burns.

"I think that dialogue is the best way to reduce tensions. And so, you know, we're hopeful that Prime Minister Singh and President Zardari -- they recently had an opportunity to meet briefly. It wasn't an extensive conversation but it was the start of what may end up being more productive conversations in the future," Obama underlined.

 

[EjazR]

Its one of the biggest ironies that most Pakistanis believe that in case of a free and fair plebiscite J&K would choose to join Pakistan. Just a refresher on the UN resolutions: It requires the plebeciste on the entire princely state of J&K including the areas under Pakistan Kashmir and the Gilgit-Batilistan area in Pakistan as well as the aksai chin and karakoram valley under China. If the plebecite is decided in India's favor, will Pakistan and China give up their regions, infact will they even allow free and fair campaigning and elections? I think no matter what we say the answer from the establishment will be a categorical no. Particularly to ceding territories. Another important point is that the UN resolution DOES NOT allow for independence. It allows only Pakistan or India. The independence clause was explicitly removed on insistence from Pakistan representatives in UN.

Also not only did the Hindu Raja sign instrument of accession to India, but Sheikh Abdulla - leader of the National conference which was fighting for self determination and had the broadest support among the J&K population supported the accession.

Now coming today, what do the Kashmiris want? Well ofcourse we have to look at both PaK and IaK. Based on the opinion polls (the report that I posted earlier) India would win a plebiscite hands down. So I think GoI (based on these opinion polls) would agree to a plebiscite. But will Pakistan and China willingly give up their territories, I don't think so. Will the plebiscite be free from intimidation and violence from terrorist outfits, again highly unlikely.

Quote from the peacepolls.org report on the poll results from Indian Kashmir:

No one wants to ‘Join Pakistan’ (table 13). Even 71% of Muslims consider this option ‘unacceptable’ (69% in the Kashmir Valley). They could have chosen ‘tolerable’ but they didn’t........But the UN resolutions for a plebiscite are limited to these two options – India or Pakistan. Clearly the Muslims of J & K do not understand this issue or have been mislead. (thanks to JKLF)

On the poll results from Pakistan administered Kashmir it says

The first preference for the people of PaK is to stay with Pakistan at 43% ‘essential’, 15% ‘desirable’, 30% ‘acceptable’, 8% ‘tolerable’ and 3%
‘unacceptable’ (Table 2). In time they might be persuaded to join an
independent Kashmir, as they do not rigorously reject this prospect either at
only 6% ‘unacceptable’. But then they do not rigorously reject any of the
options on offer (Table 2) except perhaps for joining with India (25%
‘unacceptable&#8217 unlike their brothers in IaK who so strongly reject joining with Pakistan (71% ‘unacceptable&#8217. Even on this option, however, the people of PaK seem to be split with a significant minority (20% ‘essential’ and 18% ‘desirable&#8217 open to the prospect of a future with India.

So hopefully some myths have been cleared. I had this feeling whenever I met and discussed these issues with Kashmirs but these empirical studies conducted by a third party proves my gut feeling that in case of a free and fair plebecite India would win. Even if Independence, Pakistan and India are on the table, India would still win because of vote splitting between Pakistan and Independence. So I don't think plebecite would be in the interest of Pakistan government and would agree to conduct it anyways.

 

[navtrek]

hi, my friend the days of differentiating people on the basis of religion is coming to an end in India. More educated the ppl are lesser will be this differentiation,so why divide ppl living in harmony in the name of religion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@dabong1

Dear Sir,

Your proposal seems remarkably sane and may not bring out resistance except from fanatics on either side. Have you made this condominium proposal elsewhere before? What has been the reaction?

Sincerely,

'Joe S.'

PS There are other Pakistani fora where this issue has been debated. Have you seen any of those?

'Joe'

 

[Rajkumar]

Its one of the biggest ironies that most Pakistanis believe that in case of a free and fair plebiscite J&K would choose to join Pakistan. Just a refresher on the UN resolutions: It requires the plebeciste on the entire princely state of J&K including the areas taken over by Pakistan and the Gilgit-Batilistan area in Pakistan. If the plebecite is decided in India's favor, will Pakistan and China give up their regions, infact will they even allow free and fair campaigning and elections? I think no matter what we say the answer from the establishment will be a categorical no. Particularly to ceding territories. Another important point is that the UN resolution DOES NOT allow for independence. It allows only Pakistan or India. The independence clause was explicitly removed on insistence from Pakistan representatives in UN.

Also not only did the Hindu Raja sign instrument of accession to India, but Sheikh Abdulla - leader of the National conference which was fighting for self determination and had the broadest support among the J&K population supported the accession.

Now coming today, what do the Kashmiris want? Well ofcourse we have to look at both PaK and IaK. Based on the opinion polls (the report that I posted earlier) India would win a plebiscite hands down. So I and I think all Indians indulging the people of J&K would agree to a plebiscite. But will Pakistan and China willingly give up their territories, I don't think so. Will they be free from intimidation and violence from terrorist outfits, again highly unlikely.

Quote from the peacepolls.org report on the poll results from Indian Kashmir:


On the poll results from Pakistan administered Kashmir it says


So hopefully some myths have been cleared. I had this feeling whenever I met and discussed these issues with Kashmirs but these empirical studies conducted by a third party proves my gut feeling that in case of a free and fair plebecite India would win. Even if Independence, Pakistan and India are on the table, India would still win because of vote splitting between Pakistan and Independence. So I don't think plebecite would be in the interest of Pakistan government and would agree to conduct it anyways.

i am afraid, i am gonna be disagree with you.have you ever been to Kashmir? i don't think its right time for plebiscite. i have seen tension and mistrust between security forces and people. 1989 is not very old times man,its not easy to forget atrocities done by security forces but from 2001 people are clam and provided freedom of opinion. its is not enough. removal of forces by center is wisest move of GOI coz pak is busy in tribal areas.now we need of earn good will of kashmiri people by providing economic support.

amendment in constitution is required regarding special status of Kashmir.permission of sell and buy of real state should be allowed for non kashmiris,thus there will be boost in kashmiri economy and interaction between people will increase considerably which is quite necessary to add Kashmiri people in main stream India.

 

[EjazR]

i am afraid, i am gonna be disagree with you.have you ever been to Kashmir? i don't think its right time for plebiscite. i have seen tension and mistrust between security forces and people. 1989 is not very old times man,its not easy to forget atrocities done by security forces but from 2001 people are clam and provided freedom of opinion. its is not enough. removal of forces by center is wisest move of GOI coz pak is busy in tribal areas.now we need of earn good will of kashmiri people by providing economic support.

I agree that having a plebiscite free of terror would be difficult but based on the opinion poll conducted only recently(right after the amarnath yatra controversy Nov2008-Feb2009) the results were still decisively against joining Pakistan. This included 69% of Valley muslims against joining pakistan as well! If the Amarnath issue had not been communalised by the JKLF and the BJP for petty political gain, then it might have been even higher.

So although Kashmiris are not happy with the Indian forces and their atrocities, they hate the militant fighters coming in from PaK much much more as they have also been involved in indiscriminate killing rapes and intimidation. So if they had to choose between India and Pakistan, they would still choose India as a lesser evil. Again this is based on the broad-based opinion poll. Again I suggest people to check out the report in its entirety at www.peacepolls.org.
The problem is that the media on both sides sensationalizes issues. Kashmiris, particularly muslims from the valley are portrayed in some Indian media as pro-pakistan, islamist and militant which is far from the truth. They see 2000-3000 people in "azadi" protests and forget that there are 9million+ people in the valleys who didnt.
Employment and corrupt administration is the number one issue for Kashmiris at the moment, lets see if Omar Abdullah can solve these problems.

I have attached tabled results of the opinion poll that shows 'unacceptable' percentage i.e. the percentage of respondents who would not accept this solution in any way. Very insightful.

 

[GlobalStrategist]

Sad but unfortunate fact is that he population of Azad Kashmir has been diluted by migration from other parts of Pakistan. India has disallowed migration to Kashmir. I, as an Indian citizen, cannot buy land in Kashmir. Should india allow migration, calls for autonomy would end--Kashmir would be overrun by UP-ites and Biharis--and the "freedom fighters" would be left exclusively with the title of "terrorists." Unfortunately, India does not have the cajones for such a move.

Perhaps India should adopt this solution in the future, to further legitimise the LOC as a border? Pakistan already did...

 

[Contrarian]

BJP's manifesto says it would abolish the Article 370 in the Constitution. I vehemently support this move. It would allow people from the rest of India to buy land and settle in Kashmir. That otta bring a little change in J&K dont you think.

Its high time the Congress considers this as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sad but unfortunate fact is that he population of Azad Kashmir has been diluted by migration from other parts of Pakistan.

Any independent sources to indicate the extent of the dilution, what the impact on the demographics of AK has been, if significant, etc.?

 

[EjazR]

BJP's manifesto says it would abolish the Article 370 in the Constitution. I vehemently support this move. It would allow people from the rest of India to buy land and settle in Kashmir. That otta bring a little change in J&K dont you think.

Its high time the Congress considers this as well.

I don't know what kind of change you want to bring. Article 370 is a non-issue now including for the BJP. (Why didn't it even 'try' to pass this when it was in power for six years) The fact remains that article 370 is one of the reasons why India has been getting a better position on the world stage on kashmir as well as among people of J&K. If in the future people of J&K themselves want to get rid of then there is no harm. Check out this link here that talks about article 370 and how it affects India.

Article 370 is not just the demand of Valley muslims but also for Jammu and Ladakh non-muslims. Maybe its high time BJP consider this as well.