The French Navy Stands Up to China

[xunzi]

What you are talking about -- the highlighted -- is a protracted conflict over specific goal(s). If all France or US wanted to do is teach the PLAN just one lesson, then a single naval engagement will do just fine. Overrating yourself is just as bad as underestimating the enemy.

Lol you act as if they were fighting Qing China or ROC china that couldn't even make a rifle. Sorry to break your bubble buddy, France simply dont have the quality nor the quantity to engage the PLAN alone. It will be quick with our fishing boat making contact and its game over. Lirally the SCS is a network of intelligent gathering above the water and underwater is thousands of robotic sub roam the area.

It not abouy underestimate the France but telling like it is. France did not fought anyone og equal or superior force in tech. They lost to Germany and even your country Vietnam with the aid of other is pathetic c consider Vietnam is small weak power at the time.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Your argument has no quality. Stupid assumption and baseless opinion is garbage and idiocy demonstration.

Of course those missiles will hit the target, if china has proved to hit more complicated & moving target like ICBM, or satellite why yj-12 cant hit moving ship? what make you assume they wont hit target?

The video shows their supersonic and high explosion and ability to pierce the ship.




As I told you assumption is garbage especially stupid assumption, that make your argument has no value. You know, if US has no effective way to counter-meassure supersonic sea skimming missile, what make you think France can do? by Superman help? LOL.




Your opinion and assumption based on your belief that PLAN cant beat french navy regardless of the fact that PLAN surpass french navy both in quantity and quality (AEGIS destroyers, anti access DF-21D, supersonic & hypersonic missile) is already indication of your bias.

De gaulle carrier is not a game changer especially it's tonnage is only 40k ton 2/3 of Liaoning. And de gaulle will be a prey of submarines and anti access weapon instead of game changer [emoji23]

You just post photo ops. Not real battlefield photos. What they don't tell you about Supersonic missile is that they have to be at a certain range before they become deadly. Anything less than a couple of kilos then the supersonic advantages is negated. You are also assuming a lot that the Chinese missile can hit the french despite the countermeasure in place. Point is the French are trained go up against a Navy like the PLAN, while the Chinese don't.

052D is not an AEGIS ship. Not even close.

De gaulle is a nuclear powered carrier with unlimited endurance (it doesn't have to go to port unless it needed to) & better planes than what the PLAN have on their deck.

Also the chinese can't bring the war to france. While the france can.

 

[antonius123]

You just post photo ops. Not real battlefield photos. What they don't tell you about Supersonic missile is that they have to be at a certain range before they become deadly.

The picture tell a lot if you are smart enough; you can see how fast the missile travel even at the beginning phase; and if you compare with exocet you are supposed to realize how slow is exocet. That is the key why YJ-12 is much more difficult to detect and intercept even at the far distance.

I even have given you solid data:

But as usual you always ignore.

It doesnt take a genius to see that YJ-12 can travel at mach 2 at the beginning and mach 4 at the final phase, while Exocet is always at subsonic speed.

Anything less than a couple of kilos then the supersonic advantages is negated. You are also assuming a lot that the Chinese missile can hit the french despite the countermeasure in place. Point is the French are trained go up against a Navy like the PLAN, while the Chinese don't.

That is totally rubbish. In fact the closer the missile, the more difficult for CIWS to engage when the missile run at supersonic speed. You can do googling your self to find out.

Especially for YJ-12 it is already supersonic from far distance, then reach 4 mach when it is already close to the target. Means the missile is already difficult to engage from the beginning phase.

052D is not an AEGIS ship. Not even close.

You dont know doesn't mean your assumption become correct.

Could you explain why 052D is not AEGIS according to your knowledge?

Educate yourself from here:
https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/chinese-aegis-leads-a2ad-drill-in-south-china-sea/

As I've told you many times, your argument has no value because you speak with no data, only based on your own (bias) assumption.

De gaulle is a nuclear powered carrier with unlimited endurance (it doesn't have to go to port unless it needed to) & better planes than what the PLAN have on their deck.

Could you bring a little bit smarter argument?

De gaulle's capability with unlimited endurance means nothing if it could be destroyed by rain of supersonic missiles or torpedo quite easily

Furthermore the "unlimited endurance" you mention is actually still limited only to fuel, while de gaulle is still need logistic and ammunition, that could be easily cut if the war happen in SCS.

Also the chinese can't bring the war to france. While the france can.

Why can't China?

China also has carrier - even will have 2 carriers soon compared France that only have 1 de gaulle, and China can bring much more destroyers and submarines to Europe or north sea rather than France can do to SCS

 

[haidian]

Would the French win a battle with PLAN? That's depending on many factor. If the battleground is in SCS, it's hard, but doable. And if the battleground is in North Sea or the Med, China have virtually no chance to win a battle with the French there.
.

You don't even believe it yourself, do you, yes, the number is not always a deciding factor when your numbers are close, but not by a far cry, if the number is against you 10 to 1, then it will become a deciding factor. France won't bring US to a war cause it's just a US lapdog, US can bring France in a war like they did in Korea. When US runs away, France will be the first one to run, we all know that. We don't really care about lackey countries like France, Britain and Australia, have our sight only on their master, US, the the we fix US, there'll be no problems anymore. First economically and militarily the result will come with it.

 

[Daniel808]

The picture tell a lot if you are smart enough; you can see how fast the missile travel even at the beginning phase; and if you compare with exocet you are supposed to realise how slow is exocet. That is the key why YJ-12 is much more difficult to detect and intercept even at the far distance.

I even have given you solid data:
View attachment 482496

But as usual you always ignore.

It doesnt take a genius to see that YJ-12 can travel at mach 2 at the beginning and mach 4 at the final phase, while Exocet is always at subsonic speed.




That is totally rubbish. In fact the closer the missile, the more difficult for CIWS to engage when the missile run at supersonic speed. You can do googling your self to find out.

Especially for YJ-12 it is already supersonic from far distance, then reach 4 mach when it is already close to the target. Means the missile is already difficult to engage from the beginning phase.



You dont know doesn't mean your assumption become correct.

Could you explain why 052D is not AEGIS like according to you?

Educate yourself from here:
https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/chinese-aegis-leads-a2ad-drill-in-south-china-sea/

As I've told you many times, your argument has no value because you speak with no data, only based on your own (bias) assumption.




Could you bring a little bit smarter argument?

De gaulle's capability with unlimited endurance means nothing if it could be destroyed by rain of supersonic missile or torpedo quite easy

Furthermore the "unlimited endurance" you mention is actually still limited only to fuel, while de gaulle is still need logistic, that could be easily cut if the war happen in SCS.




Why can't China?

China also has carrier - even will have 2 carriers soon compared France that only have 1 de gaulle, and China can bring much more destroyers and submarines to Europe or north sea rather than France can do to SCS

Really informative and objective post, my friend @antonius123

Just adding information regarding that bias stupid troller post by @Reashot Xigwin

It's ridiculous to say that China's Navy cannot bring War to frenchy land.
China's Navy have MUCH BIGGER Replenishment Fleet in their Battle Fleet than French.

China's Navy have 18 Replenishment Ships in their Battle Fleet, including 2 Type 901 Fast Replenishment ship that have 25 knot speed to keep up with Aircraft Carrier Battle Group (which have 45,000 Tonnes, much bigger than Frenchy navy supply ship)

Type 901 Fast Supply Ship

Meanwhile french navy only have 3 Replenishment ship. Yes, only 3 !
It also have much slower speed (only 19 knot) not like China's Navy Type 901 Fast Replenishment Ship (that have 25 knot) fast enought to keep up with Aircraft Carrier Battle Group.


And we don't talk about China's Overseas Military Base in Djibouti. That only a slip away from Mediteranean sea

 

[antonius123]

@Daniel808, your welcome and thank you for adding more valuable information

Would the French win a battle with PLAN? That's depending on many factor. If the battleground is in SCS, it's hard, but doable. And if the battleground is in North Sea or the Med, China have virtually no chance to win a battle with the French there.

Why have no chance?

As you know, Chinese Navy is much stronger than France Navy. And when did France ever have modern sea battle experience? especially in north sea?

But this is BS anyway, firstly, if French goes to war, more likely than not it will bring the German, Brits, US and Canada in. Which mean the chance of Chinese winning is zero. And I really doubt if China can sail all the way to the French Coast during a war time scenario where neutral port will be closed to Chinese Navy.

Do you think China is as weak as Iraq or Afghanistan?

You know if US still think twice to have war with China in SCS, what make you think involving France, British, and Germany will change the equation so drastically then leave no chance for China to win at all?

Do you know during Iraq war, European (France + British + Germany etc) military force demonstrated weak performance there; it is US military might that play major role in the coalition force; and Iraq is much closer to Europe than SCS.

And now we are talking China with technology and military power far ahead than Iraq or Afghanistan, and has capability to destroy the whole coalition's navy with abundant anti access weapon

 

[Viva_Viet]

Lol you act as if they were fighting Qing China or ROC china that couldn't even make a rifle. Sorry to break your bubble buddy, France simply dont have the quality nor the quantity to engage the PLAN alone. It will be quick with our fishing boat making contact and its game over. Lirally the SCS is a network of intelligent gathering above the water and underwater is thousands of robotic sub roam the area.

It not abouy underestimate the France but telling like it is. France did not fought anyone og equal or superior force in tech. They lost to Germany and even your country Vietnam with the aid of other is pathetic c consider Vietnam is small weak power at the time.

French can support 1 billion CN rebels and TW fighting against King XI in 2023 like in Lybia while CN can not do the same to France

 

[haidian]

Also the chinese can't bring the war to france. While the france can.

Every country who has a navy can bring a war to other countries if they don't care of being wiped out. France doesn't bring war to China until the first shot is fired. All countries can have freedom of navigation in South China Sea, it's kind of funny to see why US and its lapdogs insist on trying something that has never be denied there. Attention seeking?

French can support 1 billion CN rebels and TW fighting against King XI in 2023 like in Lybia while CN can not do the same to France

I billion rebels.. . wow... Am I one of them?

In past a couple of months, both French president and prime minister vistied China, now even today French prime minister is in Beijing. Do you guys think that they came here to declear war?

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Really informative and objective post, my friend @antonius123

Just adding information regarding that bias stupid troller post by @Reashot Xigwin [emoji38]

It's ridiculous to say that China's Navy cannot bring War to frenchy land.
China's Navy have MUCH BIGGER Replenishment Fleet in their Battle Fleet than French.

China's Navy have 18 Replenishment Ships in their Battle Fleet, including 2 Type 901 Fast Replenishment ship that have 25 knot speed to keep up with Aircraft Carrier Battle Group (which have 45,000 Tonnes, much bigger than Frenchy navy supply ship)

Type 901 Fast Supply Ship
View attachment 482497
View attachment 482498


Meanwhile french navy only have 3 Replenishment ship. Yes, only 3 !
It also have much slower speed (only 19 knot) not like China's Navy Type 901 Fast Replenishment Ship (that have 25 knot) fast enought to keep up with Aircraft Carrier Battle Group.


And we don't talk about China's Overseas Military Base in Djibouti. That only a slip away from Mediteranean sea

China doesn't have enough naval bases to sustain a naval war with the french. At best they can only send less than a dozen of ships in confontration with the french. While the french have naval bases all over the world. The chinese navy CANNOT operate in the blue water as good as the french. It has numbers but it cannot uses them fully.

not to mention any confontration with the french will be on their term.

 

[haidian]

China doesn't have enough naval bases to sustain a naval war with the french. At best they can only send less than a dozen of ships in confontration with the french. While the french have naval bases all over the world. The chinese navy CANNOT operate in the blue water as good as the french. It has numbers but it cannot uses them fully.

not to mention any confontration with the french will be on their term.

A colonial remnant at most, the problem is France has less and less ships and holding on to their colonial past increasingly becomes meaningless, like what happened in North Africa and Vietnam, with waning strength in everything, they finally have to let go of their ambition, no powers are rising to replace old ones.

The last major sea battle France engaged was against Britain, where British navy totally destroyed French navy in French north Africa bases during the start of WWII.

 

[jhungary]

You don't even believe it yourself, do you, yes, the number is not always a deciding factor when your numbers are close, but not by a far cry, if the number is against you 10 to 1, then it will become a deciding factor. France won't bring US to a war cause it's just a US lapdog, US can bring France in a war like they did in Korea. When US runs away, France will be the first one to run, we all know that. We don't really care about lackey countries like France, Britain and Australia, have our sight only on their master, US, the the we fix US, there'll be no problems anymore. First economically and militarily the result will come with it.

I don't need to believe anything, what I quote is a fact, those battle that was ACTAULLY fought and the outcome is real.

10 to 1 really matter? Maybe, if you throw in the towel when you see 10 enemy ships when you are alone, not CMDR Evans when his destroyer charge 4 Japanese battleship. And that whole battle is a classic naval mismatch. When the whole Taskforce only have 3 Destroyers and 4 Frigate and 6 jeep carrier up against 4 Battleships, 6 Cruisers, 2 Light Cruiser, 8 Destroyers. And Japanese Battleship Yamato Alone weighted all the US Task Force ship combine and pack a gun absolutely outrange any of the US naval warship.

Also not when Admiral Nelson when his 21 SOL fleet was out number by nearly 2 to 1. When he circle around the French/Spainish naval fleet.

Also not when Commander Oliver H Perry when his fleet is outgunned by the British Fleet.

There are numerous example of ship number did not control any battle, virtually any Naval Battle between US and Japan during beginning stage of WW2 where US fought with less ship than Japan after Pearl Harbour.

That is why you people never understand battle. You don't just back off when you are outnumber and outgun, if that force you into it, you will have to fight, and you WILL fight, there are no buts, ifs or what in it, and a battle is not set until the last bullet fires. This "US Run first then French run" thing is stupid, and only a person never seen battle would say it.

@Daniel808, your welcome and thank you for adding more valuable information




Why have no chance?

As you know, Chinese Navy is much stronger than France Navy. And when did France ever have modern sea battle experience? especially in north sea?

Answer me this, how China can even get to Atlantic without either passing India, Japan, Australia or United States. Do you think India, Australia or United States will allow safe passage and resupply to Chinese fleet when French is in war?

And where can Chinese ship resupply during the battle off French Coast even if the Chinese can get there.?

For those of us who have ACTUAL battlefield knowledge will know that the loss of power curve would mean if Chinese steam across 11000 mile of oceans, the force reduction rate is at 25% at best, and if every bullet, rounds and missile have to supply from mainland Chinese, you cannot sustain a fight with combine French Navy and Air Force in French home soil.

Even the mighty US navy with twice the amount of Chinese ship and 4 times the support fleet than the PLAN, they can only project 30% (1 in 3 carrier fleet) that far to a non peer enemy. You are talking about Chinese Navy, with less base logistic, and less ship and fighting a near peer enemy.

Do you think China is as weak as Iraq or Afghanistan?

You know if US still think twice to have war with China in SCS, what make you think involving France, British, and Germany will change the equation so drastically then leave no chance for China to win at all?

Do you know during Iraq war, European (France + British + Germany etc) military force demonstrated weak performance there; it is US military might that play major role in the coalition force; and Iraq is much closer to Europe than SCS.

And now we are talking China with technology and military power far ahead than Iraq or Afghanistan, and has capability to destroy the whole coalition's navy with abundant anti access weapon

No, but do you think French is Iraq and Afghanistan?

US 3rd fleet alone (4 Aircraft Carrier and 2 LPD fleet) will give China enough problem. If you put the Brits, the German, the French, the Canadian in the equation, there are NO CONTEST, you have to be really stupid to think PLAN can stand the pressure with a combine US, Canadian, French, German, and British Fleet.

And land war is different than a naval war, you are talking about occupation, not a engagement, and why you think European and US have show its weakness in Iraq? When EVERY SINGLE OPBECTIVE is achieved in Iraq? They made a regime change, they leave when Iraq government is in the strong position (that's why they can survive the ISIS onslaught unlike Syria), they killed Saddam Hussein, and they fought for 8 years with only ~4000 casualty, anyone would say this is a successful Military Engagement.

And Iraq is closer than SCS so? French have base closer to SCS than in Iraq.

But if you are talking about the "AMAZING" Chinese missile that hit all and sink all, I am not interested in engaging a make believe discussion in your dream.

 

[haidian]

Also not when Admiral Nelson when his 21 SOL fleet was out number by nearly 2 to 1. When he circle around the French/Spainish naval fleet.

2 to 1 you still get a fighting chance, 10 to 1 there will be no chance, that's how far your courage can carry you.

 

[ILC]

PLAWolf elaborates about SCS. There are more posts written by him about the SCS issues, it is really helpful to understand the current status of power in SCS.
Go to sinodefence forum and below, because I cant post the link yet.
/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-522#post-511555

 

[Viva_Viet]

I billion rebels.. . wow... Am I one of them?

In past a couple of months, both French president and prime minister vistied China, now even today French prime minister is in Beijing. Do you guys think that they came here to declear war?

YEah, u will be one 1 billion rebels in 2023. There is NO reason for CNese to keep support XI's family at that time. Believing CNese will support XI's family is just like believing Lybian would keep supporting Gaddafy's family

Taiwan is also CN, tell me why France will keep supporting TW while US is helping TW to retake at least half of CN land in 2023 ??

 

[antonius123]

There are numerous example of ship number did not control any battle, virtually any Naval Battle between US and Japan during beginning stage of WW2 where US fought with less ship than Japan after Pearl Harbour.

Sure, if you have better technology or strategy, you could win in spite of enemy's more ship numbers. However I dont see why France would have better strategy in sea warfare, while at least on the paper, chinese currently have some weapons with better technology than that of France.

Answer me this, how China can even get to Atlantic without either passing India, Japan, Australia or United States. Do you think India, Australia or United States will allow safe passage and resupply to Chinese fleet when French is in war?

Why India would involve in this hypotetical war? This is war between France and China right?

Besides, China ships could pass indian ocean which is international sea, then through read sea and egypt.

And where can Chinese ship resupply during the battle off French Coast even if the Chinese can get there.?

From Chinese military base in Djibouti; Daniel808 has mentioned it above.

For those of us who have ACTUAL battlefield knowledge will know that the loss of power curve would mean if Chinese steam across 11000 mile of oceans, the force reduction rate is at 25% at best, and if every bullet, rounds and missile have to supply from mainland Chinese, you cannot sustain a fight with combine French Navy and Air Force in French home soil.

Even the mighty US navy with twice the amount of Chinese ship and 4 times the support fleet than the PLAN, they can only project 30% (1 in 3 carrier fleet) that far to a non peer enemy. You are talking about Chinese Navy, with less base logistic, and less ship and fighting a near peer enemy.

For skirmish sea warfare, chinese ship will have enough ammunition and missiles to sink French navy in mediteranian sea. Of course if you want to talk about land attack and occupation china will need much more amunition support from her supporting military base in Djibouti, I know china might not be ready for that scenario, however france is much less capable in attacking and occupying chinese land.

No, but do you think French is Iraq and Afghanistan?

US 3rd fleet alone (4 Aircraft Carrier and 2 LPD fleet) will give China enough problem. If you put the Brits, the German, the French, the Canadian in the equation, there are NO CONTEST, you have to be really stupid to think PLAN can stand the pressure with a combine US, Canadian, French, German, and British Fleet.

US 3rd fleet with 4 aircraft carriers & 2 LPD fleet + other coalition (Brits, German, France) military projection power will be more than enough to win war in Iraq & Afghanistan, but not with China.

You know how the combination of Chinese submarines + destroyers + fregats + regiments of H-6K + DF-21D + DF-26 in artificial islands is more than enough to destroy whole navy of the coalition in SCS

Tell me why, if you dont think so.

And land war is different than a naval war, you are talking about occupation, not a engagement, and why you think European and US have show its weakness in Iraq? When EVERY SINGLE OPBECTIVE is achieved in Iraq? They made a regime change, they leave when Iraq government is in the strong position (that's why they can survive the ISIS onslaught unlike Syria), they killed Saddam Hussein, and they fought for 8 years with only ~4000 casualty, anyone would say this is a successful Military Engagement.

And Iraq is closer than SCS so? French have base closer to SCS than in Iraq.

That is thanks to US military power. Europe alone may not be able to reach that success. And now we are talking about fighting in SCS where there are numerous submarines, destroyers, fregats, anti access weapons there.

But if you are talking about the "AMAZING" Chinese missile that hit all and sink all, I am not interested in engaging a make believe discussion in your dream.

Why you want to discount it? Do you think China wont use them when war happen with US? In fact this the thing that china rely on to counter US military threat.

If you think the chinese anti access missiles are not real threat, then why until now US military might has no gut to attack China and destroy the illegal artificial islands made by china in SCS? Isn't US a world police while China has violated UN' resolution?