The First Nationalist

[El Sidd]

I'm not going to go in circles with you.

You need to answer the below before I answer any more questions...

you need to usurp an office that can legally demand this from me otherwise it ain't happening

 

[fisher1]

Ishtiaq Ahmed, seems like a different author then the one I am thinking of.

Pakistan was only allowed by the British to exist as a secular Muslim state. Quaid understood that very well. A genuine Islamic state, which was based completely on Quran and Ahadith, was unpalatable to the British. You have to understand everything which he did was for the benefit of the Muslims.

He soon passed away, and died a very religious and pious man. Afterall he was the mureed of a Sufi saint, Allama Iqbal, and a Wali of Allah swt in his own right. Allah swt blessed him with foresight, that accounts for his unyielding faith in his cause.

His last words were very ominous. You should take a look at Dr. Israr's lecture concerning it, even Imran Khan shared it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073824168548937728

It's funny that you shared that Tweet. Would Imran Khan share what Dr Israr Ahmed said about Imran Khan?

That's dishonesty on IKs part using the great scholar for furthering his party's agenda while keeping people in dark about the warnings the good doctor had given us against Imran Khan.

That's like using your enemy. Very cunning. Can't say i am surprised though

It is also a moment of shame for Pakistan that Dr Israr Ahmed knew about Quad and our intelligence and government couldn't find another source of information about Quad. I am sure IK would have preferred to share someone else's work about Quad than the scholar who spoke harshly about him. We know IK doesn't invite the same journalist who asks a little too critical a question.

 

[Itachi]

you need to usurp an office that can legally demand this from me otherwise it ain't happening

Ok buddy.

 

[El Sidd]

Ok buddy.

itna time soch kar ye faisla kia?

 

[Itachi]

itna time soch kar ye faisla kia?

Nah dude, I got other things to do than talk to a troll.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

If I were to ask you who was the first nationalist, who would you say it be? Perhaps you would name a figure from thousands of years ago, or perhaps you would name a person from recent history, or maybe you wouldn't name anyone but rather give a different meaning altogether.

I present to you the first nationalist...

[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.
So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."
So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely.
Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers.
[ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?"
He said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

Quran 38:71-76

At the height of nationalism... This is the reality... https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics

At the heigh of Justice... This is the reality... https://www.arabnews.com/umar-ibn-al-khattab-commander-faithful

Which do you choose? I have made my choice...


@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Cliftonite @Sine Nomine @ArabianEmpires&Caliphates @OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ @PakSword

I do not believe in coincidences, coincidentally, I do believe in "qadr" and since I can only reflect upon it... it's only my interpretation of it... individualism, tribalism and nationalism are cogs in the same chain... once you take yourself or your surroundings into the sphere of 'ism then you have certainly crossed into the realm of grandstanding, kibr... essentially satan's own take. With this as context, I see existence of Turkiye, Pakistan and Afghanistan as no coincidence... each is very unique in it's own context, each connected with each other in a larger context... of freedom and self respect.

How many people today can draw from it? ... when people seek certain physical features or facial hair to draw certain conclusions ... when a supposed Caliph had surrendered... treaty of Sevres or when the same plays in British Raj Mavlana Azad plays for the collective, both bowing their heads and respective populations to a certain dominion, but not their lord. In both cases their would be saviors were ones who could best deal with their respective interlocutors. Both saved their respective people from certain bondage... from greeks and Armenians in one case and hindues and sikhs in other. I feel Muslims had stopped respecting their mission, being the ultimate nation, it was imperative upon them to bring the global village that we see today but as I said above the Almighty knows and we reflect thereupon, if enlightened. It is incumbent upon Pakistanis to know and to deliver on it's ideological underpinnings... to come out of the shadows, and to draw the right conclusions.

You cannot have an ideological state and act like everyone else... to give you an example, if B'desh had chosen instead to remain as East Pakistan... it would have ideologically been a different state... one that could marshal moral values in it's state craft... where not only the Biharis would have found a state, it would have pounced on the life, freedom and dignity of Rohingyas... but instead, it became one of the two Bengals... something of a paradoxical existence... where ideally it should reconnect with it's estranged sibling... but in what way? A powerful and dominant India usurps it or west Bengal finds it's way out of a meek India... either way you get the point... but the general populace ever not so sure pussyfooting around hasn't come around to owning their uniqueness... where even if Zia had facial hair would never have found pinnacle of Armed forces less a martial law administer. Yes, I said it! Just like those before the formation of this state found ascendance in social stature by being or having a certain secular acumen, still inhabit similar paradigm. And I'm in no way saying that Iqbal, Jinnah and Zia manifested a fake persona! They were as genuine as they came... they lived their paradigm yet knew what they're seeking. But how long will the same last?

This baggage of colonialism of different parameters of success must change. For this people will have to introspect and see why they do certain things? Those in power will have to sacrifice for the new sapling to get enough air light and moisture. People will have to come out of seeking refuge in extreme nationalism... ones who promote it very quickly find themselves at loggerheads with those whose nationalism doesn't match theirs or those who deconstruct it into regional or tribalism where all of sudden those shouting one thing start seeing Mohajir, Baloch, Punjabi or their respective subgroups ... those who have hijacked Islam and formed their own factions do the same thing!!! It is no different than national or individualism they just have a different niche. People lost in these dogmas ask where to find The Truth...
A borrowed system forever trying to.mold the society in it's image... A Bureaucracy that reflects imperialism and leeches on it's host till its very death! A left and right paradigm on a society that lacks conext both socially and economically. A education system that only produces drones... yes men for the system... again devoid of context and need. No wonder the system hasn't produced and will never produce solutions whose problems are alien... original thought can never take place in surrogate environments/culture. Steamroller is being applied to existing culture, trade, skills, language, arts ,history, clothes, cuisine and people are told they are free! How can one value freedom when they are not willing to sacrifice for it?


The way forward
When I read Qur'an 103... it has a very ominous contention ... when I read Time, profit/loss paradigm and patience... I understand capitalism or more correctly debt financing and fiat currency. Where most of Qur'an is filled with examples on chinks in majoritarianism... what I'm saying is that summit of both democracy and capitalism is one... one corporation or one person, that is the ultimate logical conclusion. We are living a blip in time ... where sun is warm and soothing... earth is calm and cushy. Global village was to come... global awakening and knowledge of whole globe in the palm of your hand ... for a global conclusion. And here we are at another crossroads, another transition and now more than ever we need awareness of ourselves and what we represent. Humanity is reaching a time with all it's baggage and a loaded spring... the glitter and aesthetics are masking the farce but most would rather not scratch the surface.

Yet, we must live both for here and hereafter! Live to our best potential... let us start anew!

 

[PakAlp]

Allah almighty made us in to different tribes and nations, people with different colours. The hadith of Asabiya is against those nationalist, tribalist who are racist and discriminate against other people and are against the unity of Muslims.

I believe it all depends on your mindset.
I have seen people fighting each other because of different languages, different mentality, different professions, different wealth, different families? Different Islamic political parties? Different cities, different areas, different regions.
How would we solve these problems in the future?

I spoke to many people regarding this but our youth are mainly confused. For example if you say you are Pakistani or Pakistan zindabad, does that make you a nationalist? Or if you say Turkey Zindabad?
Is it nationalism to love your nation? And fight for your army and nation? If I say Afghanistan Zindabad, Turkey, Saudi, Egypt zindabad, does that make me a traitor?

It was mainly the extremist and ikhwanis/hts who were against this because they supported the extremist who were waging a war against Pakistan. So would you back Pakistan or Holy warriors who follow Quran and Sunnah? So this belief of loving one nation and land didn't exist in their mind, it made no difference to them if Pakistan was burnt and all history destroyed, but those who truly loved Pakistan would never burn it through bombings and destruction. This was something which destroyed the ideology of terrorist. The same people who hate Muslim countries have made 100 different Islamic parties and are fighting each other, so again a way to divide each other.

In the time of Prophet peace be upon him, we had Makka, Madina, Shaam, Iraq, Yemen. The people of Yemen were called Yemenis etc. The Prophet peace be upon him was from Banu Hashim and Qureshi tribe. The issue people had at that time was they used to misuse this and with their small mind tried to attack each other only because of their different tribes etc. This is what Islam condemned.

The European played a clever game against us, they divided us in to small different countries in order to weaken us, they used race, culture, region, tribes, language in order to divide us. In the future they could use something else, remember we as humans will always have differences.

We as Muslim ummah need to wake up and work together and make our countries strong, then bring about a unity where all Muslim countries can unite, we can keep the same names, borders etc but make it visa free, sign security deals to help each other, make a joint parliament and select a leadership for the whole ummah. This is our best response, because even if we had one huge state, we would still need to divide it in order for better management, we would still need to accommodate different Muslims who have different cultures, languages, sects.

Alot of Islamic groups claim they want one Islamic state but their agenda is the destruction of Muslims, For example they want to over take Iraq and then request Muslim countries to join under them otherwise they will wage Jihad against them. They basically want to destroy all Muslim armies, flags, borders, history and somehow make a one large unified state. This seems like a new western plan to destroy Muslims, in the name of Islam wage rebellion against Muslim armies and this leads to the destruction of that country. How will the killing of Muslims and destruction of our land benefit us?

The name World Muslim Union could be changed to Sultanate, the current armies could manage their own regions, and Sultanate Nato type army could deal with foreign aggression and so on.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

If I were to ask you who was the first nationalist, who would you say it be? Perhaps you would name a figure from thousands of years ago, or perhaps you would name a person from recent history, or maybe you wouldn't name anyone but rather give a different meaning altogether.

I present to you the first nationalist...

[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.
So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."
So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely.
Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers.
[ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?"
He said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

Quran 38:71-76

At the height of nationalism... This is the reality... https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics

At the heigh of Justice... This is the reality... https://www.arabnews.com/umar-ibn-al-khattab-commander-faithful

Which do you choose? I have made my choice...


@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Cliftonite @Sine Nomine @ArabianEmpires&Caliphates @OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ @PakSword

Nationalism is the SINGLE reason why Muslims are not a world power anymore.

 

[PakAlp]

I agree with that statement if you put pride as in "takab'ur" or racial superiority concepts in it. However, nationalism is looking after your national identity which is normally based on shared social characteristics such as culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history. Now that can't be used as a synonym for pride "takab'ur" but nationalism is to look after the interests of your people based on those values. And religion is part of it.

Great explanation. We could be denied Jannah just by having pride in our wealth, language, even our opinion or looks. Some people look down on others because of this

It is very confusing to understand what makes nationalism as pride and what makes nationalism as just loving your nation, trying to work for its progress etc.

 

[terry5]

If I were to ask you who was the first nationalist, who would you say it be? Perhaps you would name a figure from thousands of years ago, or perhaps you would name a person from recent history, or maybe you wouldn't name anyone but rather give a different meaning altogether.

I present to you the first nationalist...

[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.
So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."
So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely.
Except Iblees; he was arrogant and became among the disbelievers.
[ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?"
He said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."

Quran 38:71-76

At the height of nationalism... This is the reality... https://www.history.com/topics/germany/eugenics

At the heigh of Justice... This is the reality... https://www.arabnews.com/umar-ibn-al-khattab-commander-faithful

Which do you choose? I have made my choice...


@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Cliftonite @Sine Nomine @ArabianEmpires&Caliphates @OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ @PakSword

also the very first racist .

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

I do not believe in coincidences, coincidentally, I do believe in "qadr" and since I can only reflect upon it... it's only my interpretation of it... individualism, tribalism and nationalism are cogs in the same chain... once you take yourself or your surroundings into the sphere of 'ism then you have certainly crossed into the realm of grandstanding, kibr... essentially satan's own take. With this as context, I see existence of Turkiye, Pakistan and Afghanistan as no coincidence... each is very unique in it's own context, each connected with each other in a larger context... of freedom and self respect.

How many people today can draw from it? ... when people seek certain physical features or facial hair to draw certain conclusions ... when a supposed Caliph had surrendered... treaty of Sevres or when the same plays in British Raj Mavlana Azad plays for the collective, both bowing their heads and respective populations to a certain dominion, but not their lord. In both cases their would be saviors were ones who could best deal with their respective interlocutors. Both saved their respective people from certain bondage... from greeks and Armenians in one case and hindues and sikhs in other. I feel Muslims had stopped respecting their mission, being the ultimate nation, it was imperative upon them to bring the global village that we see today but as I said above the Almighty knows and we reflect thereupon, if enlightened. It is incumbent upon Pakistanis to know and to deliver on it's ideological underpinnings... to come out of the shadows, and to draw the right conclusions.

You cannot have an ideological state and act like everyone else... to give you an example, if B'desh had chosen instead to remain as East Pakistan... it would have ideologically been a different state... one that could marshal moral values in it's state craft... where not only the Biharis would have found a state, it would have pounced on the life, freedom and dignity of Rohingyas... but instead, it became one of the two Bengals... something of a paradoxical existence... where ideally it should reconnect with it's estranged sibling... but in what way? A powerful and dominant India usurps it or west Bengal finds it's way out of a meek India... either way you get the point... but the general populace ever not so sure pussyfooting around hasn't come around to owning their uniqueness... where even if Zia had facial hair would never have found pinnacle of Armed forces less a martial law administer. Yes, I said it! Just like those before the formation of this state found ascendance in social stature by being or having a certain secular acumen, still inhabit similar paradigm. And I'm in no way saying that Iqbal, Jinnah and Zia manifested a fake persona! They were as genuine as they came... they lived their paradigm yet knew what they're seeking. But how long will the same last?

This baggage of colonialism of different parameters of success must change. For this people will have to introspect and see why they do certain things? Those in power will have to sacrifice for the new sapling to get enough air light and moisture. People will have to come out of seeking refuge in extreme nationalism... ones who promote it very quickly find themselves at loggerheads with those whose nationalism doesn't match theirs or those who deconstruct it into regional or tribalism where all of sudden those shouting one thing start seeing Mohajir, Baloch, Punjabi or their respective subgroups ... those who have hijacked Islam and formed their own factions do the same thing!!! It is no different than national or individualism they just have a different niche. People lost in these dogmas ask where to find The Truth...
A borrowed system forever trying to.mold the society in it's image... A Bureaucracy that reflects imperialism and leeches on it's host till its very death! A left and right paradigm on a society that lacks conext both socially and economically. A education system that only produces drones... yes men for the system... again devoid of context and need. No wonder the system hasn't produced and will never produce solutions whose problems are alien... original thought can never take place in surrogate environments/culture. Steamroller is being applied to existing culture, trade, skills, language, arts ,history, clothes, cuisine and people are told they are free! How can one value freedom when they are not willing to sacrifice for it?


The way forward
When I read Qur'an 103... it has a very ominous contention ... when I read Time, profit/loss paradigm and patience... I understand capitalism or more correctly debt financing and fiat currency. Where most of Qur'an is filled with examples on chinks in majoritarianism... what I'm saying is that summit of both democracy and capitalism is one... one corporation or one person, that is the ultimate logical conclusion. We are living a blip in time ... where sun is warm and soothing... earth is calm and cushy. Global village was to come... global awakening and knowledge of whole globe in the palm of your hand ... for a global conclusion. And here we are at another crossroads, another transition and now more than ever we need awareness of ourselves and what we represent. Humanity is reaching a time with all it's baggage and a loaded spring... the glitter and aesthetics are masking the farce but most would rather not scratch the surface.

Yet, we must live both for here and hereafter! Live to our best potential... let us start anew!

Thanks brother, for your beautiful insight. It was a very pleasant read.

Allah almighty made us in to different tribes and nations, people with different colours. The hadith of Asabiya is against those nationalist, tribalist who are racist and discriminate against other people and are against the unity of Muslims.

I believe it all depends on your mindset.
I have seen people fighting each other because of different languages, different mentality, different professions, different wealth, different families? Different Islamic political parties? Different cities, different areas, different regions.
How would we solve these problems in the future?

I spoke to many people regarding this but our youth are mainly confused. For example if you say you are Pakistani or Pakistan zindabad, does that make you a nationalist? Or if you say Turkey Zindabad?
Is it nationalism to love your nation? And fight for your army and nation? If I say Afghanistan Zindabad, Turkey, Saudi, Egypt zindabad, does that make me a traitor?

It was mainly the extremist and ikhwanis/hts who were against this because they supported the extremist who were waging a war against Pakistan. So would you back Pakistan or Holy warriors who follow Quran and Sunnah? So this belief of loving one nation and land didn't exist in their mind, it made no difference to them if Pakistan was burnt and all history destroyed, but those who truly loved Pakistan would never burn it through bombings and destruction. This was something which destroyed the ideology of terrorist. The same people who hate Muslim countries have made 100 different Islamic parties and are fighting each other, so again a way to divide each other.

In the time of Prophet peace be upon him, we had Makka, Madina, Shaam, Iraq, Yemen. The people of Yemen were called Yemenis etc. The Prophet peace be upon him was from Banu Hashim and Qureshi tribe. The issue people had at that time was they used to misuse this and with their small mind tried to attack each other only because of their different tribes etc. This is what Islam condemned.

The European played a clever game against us, they divided us in to small different countries in order to weaken us, they used race, culture, region, tribes, language in order to divide us. In the future they could use something else, remember we as humans will always have differences.

We as Muslim ummah need to wake up and work together and make our countries strong, then bring about a unity where all Muslim countries can unite, we can keep the same names, borders etc but make it visa free, sign security deals to help each other, make a joint parliament and select a leadership for the whole ummah. This is our best response, because even if we had one huge state, we would still need to divide it in order for better management, we would still need to accommodate different Muslims who have different cultures, languages, sects.

Alot of Islamic groups claim they want one Islamic state but their agenda is the destruction of Muslims, For example they want to over take Iraq and then request Muslim countries to join under them otherwise they will wage Jihad against them. They basically want to destroy all Muslim armies, flags, borders, history and somehow make a one large unified state. This seems like a new western plan to destroy Muslims, in the name of Islam wage rebellion against Muslim armies and this leads to the destruction of that country. How will the killing of Muslims and destruction of our land benefit us?

The name World Muslim Union could be changed to Sultanate, the current armies could manage their own regions, and Sultanate Nato type army could deal with foreign aggression and so on.
View attachment 637205

Brother, you have diagnosed the problem correctly. I have watched these same groups destroy the strong, unified American Muslim community. Back when it was Pakistani and African American Muslims mainly, we achieved much good in the country and had floods of conversions. It was a very healthy environment.

Then JI came and made ICNA, they pushed change and voting. Afterwards Ikhwan from Levant (Muslim Brotherhood) made ISNA, MAS, and CAIR, pushing with KSA money, taking over masajid and organizations across the country. They were adamant of Muslim political involvement, on their terms and supporting their acceptable candidates. It was kind of like bullying tactics to force Muslims to vote. Then their true agenda came when they started attacking rival Imams and teachers (Nouman Ali Khan,) to brainwash Muslims to embrace LGBT, and come out strongly against Republicans (leading to backlash.)

I watched with my eyes the destruction of the American Muslim community and I don't want the same to happen to Pakistan or any Muslim country.

About Western Salafism and Hizbut Tahrir, yes, they do not accept any Muslim nation and seek to subvert any and all Muslim nations. They have many Indian and Bangladeshi members that I noticed and it merges with their already vehement anti-Pakistani rhetoric. Alhamdulilah Pakistani members are much less. Most of their members do not have strong relationship with Muslim countries, so they are isolated to the West.

 

[H. Dawary]

Thanks brother, for your beautiful insight. It was a very pleasant read.

Indeed, he is very wise. It's too bad our politics are so corrupt, we need people like him.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Alot of Pakistanis are innocent, in fact I found them to be amongst the best Muslims here in Canada. The venom mainly comes from first the Arabs and to some extent us Afghans, which was prompted a strong reaction from many PAK nationals. If this venom continues, then I fear for Pakistan, which is why I present a warning to be-ware of this venom.

To be honest wrora, the average Pakistani loves Afghans as his brother. But when they see the opposite on social media/internet etc.. the hate becomes a mutual affair.

Ive been on this forum for over a decade and was never anti Afghanistan or anti Arab. But the experience here dis change me. That said when I see people like you .. it all goes away.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

To be honest wrora, the average Pakistani loves Afghans as his brother. But when they see the opposite on social media/internet etc.. the hate becomes a mutual affair.

Ive been on this forum for over a decade and was never anti Afghanistan or anti Arab. But the experience here dis change me. That said when I see people like you .. it all goes away.

Aws and Khazraj fought each other for as long as they could remember, neither backed down. Yathrib was a warzone. No one knew any other way. Jews said that the Arabs will never learn and profited from this bloodshed.

When they both beheld Sayyidina Mustafa saws, both were in awe, the veils of hate and strife vanished from their eyes, and he joined their hands together, with his own two hands. He said, now you are both one nation, you are Al Ansar. And further he said, "Wherever my Ansar go, I will go with them."

So after he conquered Makkah and became the prophet-king of all Arabs, he went back to quiet, peaceful Madinah and ruled from there.