The Debt we owe the Army & PAF

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let me rephrase your question: Why should not Pakistan take the leading role in resolving the impasse since it stands to gain more from the resolution?

You have yet to explain how Pakistan "stands to gain more from the resolution of the impasse", given that the current template for promoting trade between the two countries is overwhelmingly in India's favor.

 

[VCheng]

Because India stands to gain too. It does not matter whether India gains "more" than Pakistan or not. We are a developing country, any policy which leads to more development will be pursued. A pdf member said something like Ayub khan was going to change Pakistan's policy wrt India. Is that true?

Both countries stand to gain from better relations, but as the smaller and struggling economy, Pakistan cannot afford the same leeway that India has with the status quo for the longer term. Its past policies have steadily eroded its own positions to the point where they cannot be sustained.

 

[Srinivas]

You have yet to explain how Pakistan "stands to gain more from the resolution of the impasse", given that the current template for promoting trade between the two countries is overwhelmingly in India's favor.

Trade relations are beneficial for both the nations. Anyway Pakistan buys smuggled goods for higher prices from India.

Pakistan also gains by opening trade with India. They will have access to 1.2 Billion people.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan also gains by opening trade with India. They will have access to 1.2 Billion people.

Pakistan's gains will be slight compared to those for India with an opening of trade with India under the currently proposed template. With a much more diverse industrial base, existing economies of scale and an overall more mature and efficient industrial sector, exports from India to Pakistan will easily outweigh Pakistani exports to India, and likely put significant pressures on local Pakistani industry.

 

[Taj_91]

Pakistan's gains will be slight compared to those for India with an opening of trade with India under the currently proposed template. With a much more diverse industrial base, existing economies of scale and an overall more mature and efficient industrial sector, exports from India to Pakistan will easily outweigh Pakistani exports to India, and likely put significant pressures on local Pakistani industry.

It is entirely up to you to decide whether you want to open your economy to India. A peaceful relation will still have other benefits. Just one example, India will be more confident about its pipeline passing through Pakistan, from which Pakistan will earn easy money. And the pipeline will be beneficial to India too. Just one of the many benefits.
Other benefit, much less spending on military and more fro development.

 

[SQ8]

Trade relations are beneficial for both the nations. Anyway Pakistan buys smuggled goods for higher prices from India.

Pakistan also gains by opening trade with India. They will have access to 1.2 Billion people.

Pakistan's gains will be slight compared to those for India with an opening of trade with India under the currently proposed template. With a much more diverse industrial base, existing economies of scale and an overall more mature and efficient industrial sector, exports from India to Pakistan will easily outweigh Pakistani exports to India, and likely put significant pressures on local Pakistani industry.

Its a yes and no right there. Essentially, India is growing and hungry. This means that it needs natural resources from the cheapest of sources. The main factor within those natural resources is transportation cost. If those are cut down then it makes sense for India to go for the cheapest source possible.

Currently, Pakistan has on the table(in some cases partially done) 4 pipelines that can provide India(and China) with all their natural gas based energy needs and oil too if needed. The hypothetical profit from these pipelines aggregates to a ballpark figure of (and I have it from a government sceptic source) $1 Billion a month. Not a year, a month. This profit is for the fee that Pakistan can charge competitively for transit and upkeep for these pipelines to provide energy to India and China.

But to be able to do that, a lot of geopolitical interests will have to align which is an impossibility. After all, India is not the ONLY one who would be very uncomfortable with the idea of Pakistan getting even quarter of a billion dollars a month.

 

[Taj_91]

Its a yes and no right there. Essentially, India is growing and hungry. This means that it needs natural resources from the cheapest of sources. The main factor within those natural resources is transportation cost. If those are cut down then it makes sense for India to go for the cheapest source possible.

Currently, Pakistan has on the table(in some cases partially done) 4 pipelines that can provide India(and China) with all their natural gas based energy needs and oil too if needed. The hypothetical profit from these pipelines aggregates to a ballpark figure of (and I have it from a government sceptic source) $1 Billion a month. Not a year, a month. This profit is for the fee that Pakistan can charge competitively for transit and upkeep for these pipelines to provide energy to India and China.

But to be able to do that, a lot of geopolitical interests will have to align which is an impossibility. After all, India is not the ONLY one who would be very uncomfortable with the idea of Pakistan getting even quarter of a billion dollars a month.

With all the history, of course! But you are saying based on the premise that Pakistan and India will always be enemy. That is what is being said, work for peace and sign a treaty. Contents of the treaty will have to be determined, but it needs earnest efforts from both sides.
And yes, Pakistan will have to dismantle the terrorist camps and deradicalize its society.

 

[VCheng]

This profit is for the fee that Pakistan can charge competitively for transit and upkeep for these pipelines to provide energy to India and China.

Why would China's energy need to transit through Pakistan, Sir? It has its own direct access to Central Asia.

 

[Jf Thunder]

1) A govt has every authority to interfere in every govt. matter, be it the military, what is the fuss? why army matters ar not subject to public office holders. why okara farms cant be discussed by civilians in power... why?
2) yes bhutto was the final nail in the coffin, but the coffin was made in the previous decade , and also by the army operation
3) mush was an army wala, he was a uniformed president. that is waht i have been saying all along, the top generals must be held accountable for their decisions! not the jawans but the generals yes they must be answer!!
4) it was the 80's my brother when mullah's got power. they did exist before, but they had no power, they had no funding they had just a loud speaker, zia radicalized the society. in this i must add bhutto as well for ahemadi stunt as well. but zia era of 80's was the polarizing decade, the society got polarized between sunni shia, jihadi organizations came in, blasphemy law, arab funding for jihads, wahabiism, lashkar e jhangvi....
5) and the army didnt eat away the country... did the powerful dictators build Kalabagh dam, did the hang the corrupt politicians? rather they brought NRO and politicians whom they could manipulate!
6) here lies a difference of opinion, i respect your viewpoint regarding NS, i think he was right... let us agree to disagree on this point. but atleast you have agreed that mush was wrong.

2)Bhutto was the one who ruined the war for us you know?
3)agree
4)i agree but partially
5)fair enough
6)he didnt have to announce it to the whole world u know

 

[Srinivas]

Pakistan's gains will be slight compared to those for India with an opening of trade with India under the currently proposed template. With a much more diverse industrial base, existing economies of scale and an overall more mature and efficient industrial sector, exports from India to Pakistan will easily outweigh Pakistani exports to India, and likely put significant pressures on local Pakistani industry.

Pakistan has its strengths in agriculture sector Pakistan will gain through exports, Regarding Industry Pakistan can go for JV's and develop its local industry.

Pakistan imports most of the products from other countries and most of the Indian products are shipped to Gulf and from there they are brought into Pakistan. By making agreements the cost of these products will become less mean while.

Both the countries share same climate and terrain, Pakistan will benefit by signing agreements in agriculture, Industrial , IT , Transport and Pharma sectors.

As mentioned by Oscar Transit route will also fetch more income to Pakistan. But I doubt the safety of the pipe lines which will be laid in sensitive areas.

 

[Max Pain]

Like iraq's dictator fixed iraq... like libya's dictator fixed libya.... ??

in both cases, Uncle sam came to fix em.

 

[asq]

When the military comes in---it is due to the failures of the civilians----.

And these politicians are showing their colors now that the military has decide not to interfere, but than these politicians have delayed the operation, they have looted and are looting the country, latest example is that of a PIA plane ordered to be taken out of service to serve the king for his visit to Nepal, what a shame,

when I watch on TV these politicians i get sick to my stomach due to their lies, recently Punjab ex law minister when TALKING ABOUT Model town kerfuffle about judicial report is lying about it because it put the blame squarely on the Punjab Govt. It is shameful to come with a separate report doctored by them to refute the original report.

now the interior federal minster keep lying about facts that are coming from IK camp about their corruptions, they have have no scruples, no moral as they moral bankrupt people.

About foreign affairs, Sartaj Aziz is another minister making Pakistan a target for other countries by his latest speech about it being noted as a terrorist state, he is clueless.

Pakistan need desperately good brainy leader with courage and knowledge to refute these allegation, i pray to Allah S.W.T. to help Pakistan get those people in position and get its name shine like a star and not me cursed by the its adversaries.

 

[third eye]

Pakistan need desperately good brainy leader with courage and knowledge to refute these allegation, i pray to Allah S.W.T. to help Pakistan get those people in position and get its name shine like a star and not me cursed by the its adversaries.

If you have to pray you should pray for national institutions not for brainy leaders.

National institutions like a strong SC, Election Commission, Right to information, Vigilance Commission , Womens rights bodies and so on.

Such institutions if autonomous act as watch dogs to keep the high & mighty in check & this includes the Army.

The rest will follow

 

[fatman17]

in both cases, Uncle sam came to fix em.

right mate, some fix'in they did...

 

[Judge]

Hi,

Seems like you speak out of lack of experience or a lack of knowledge-----only and only india can make peace. Any time any day----india can resolve the issue---peace is at india's discretion.

Pakistan does not have more to lose if the status quo stays the same----india has more to lose if the status quo remains the same----every extra day is giving time to Pakistan to strengthen---and when Pakistan is strong----or feeling strong---it strikes----regardless of the results----Pakistan may some but india will lose more economically.

What world do you live in Sir? Is it a world in which you can mould reality to suit you?

India is the status quoist party in this. India wants things to remain the way they are. Each day leads to India furthering the gap between India and Pakistan - from economy to international influence to military. Each day further reduces Pakistans bargaining power with India simply because India posts higher growth rates than Pakistan each year, year on year.

Again, you need to realize this - that each time Pakistan strikes, Pakistan looses far more than India. The only place where India can be really hurt is economy. And because India is a large country, a skirmish or a small war on the border does not affect the economy much. In 1999 there was Kargil war, in 2002 there was a year round full mobilization and constant border skirmishes - and yet India's economy was not affected...it kept growing and giving great growth rates.

This year, there have been skirmishes constantly with tens of thousands of people displaced from the borders in both India and Pakistan and yet India's economic growth rates are increasing and exports increasing.

These are some of the benefits of being a physically vast country. You lot seem to forget these ground realities.

Yet your criticism is aimed solely at the PA, suggesting the situation would magically resolve if only the PA would be neutralized.

You have yet to prove that India is genuinely interested in peace. Indian actions are just as self-contradictory as anything from Pakistan.

That is because India understands the concept of 'peace at what cost'.
Why would India try for peace when peace has a high cost? - like severing of Kashmir.

Pakistanis assume Indians want peace because Pakistanis project their insecurity over Kashmir to Indians. Kashmir is simply not a big problem for India or Indians. It is not in our consciousness. It is in Pakistanis consciousness, so they assume, we want to solve it as badly as they do.The thing with Pakistanis is that in their analysis they seem to think peace is an end in itself regardless of the costs.It is not.
It is a cost-benefit equation. India does not want peace if it means Kashmir goes out of Indian sovereignty.

And Pakistan offers nothing to India in exchange for peace. As I have clearly stated, Pakistans ability to reduce India's economic growth rates alone is very limited, let alone being able to damage India's economy short of a full scale war.

Why should India change a status quo which is bringing more harm to Pakistan than to itself?

Please tell this to MastanKhan who seems to think status quo favours Pakistan!