The Debt we owe the Army & PAF

[FaujHistorian]

Regardless of our disagreement on the root causes of the present decay, which lie nearly half a century deep, what is quite clear is that Pakistan is hopelessly incapable of dealing with its present challenges to remain viable in the 21st century. I'd rather concentrate on what is coming rather than what has been.

1860 USA.

just remember.

 

[fatman17]

What "new" Army is this? This is the same old Army trying to put on new makeup. What admiration does it deserve for half-heartedly trying to solve the problems that it created in the first place?

the Taliban was created by the interior minister of B/Bhutto....surprise, surprise.

 

[fatman17]

Like iraq's dictator fixed iraq... like libya's dictator fixed libya.... ??

they were better off then than now......go ask the iraqis and libyans...

 

[fatman17]

I do agree that politicians have also had their share but one must not forget that these politicians were nothing but the puppets of their uniformed masters.

Now coming to the points you mentioned

>> 4 martial laws <-- All done under extreme unrests <-- unrests like happening today as dharnas... unrests like PMLN carrying out rallies against PPP in previous tenure.... opposition always creates unrests... army should leave these matters to the politicians so that they may figure out their shit and let the system mature just like its been happening post Musharraf. But in the past army was waiting for an opportunity or creating unrests to come into power.

>> Bangladesh <-- Messiah Bhutto claimed any politician who attends the parliament meeting in Dhaka will be traitor.... Yes it was zulfi's fault. but was there no discrimination with east Pakistan in the ayub era, the root cause of the problem, ? the army never used force in east Pakistan? equal rights were given to bengals during martial law? was their language given due importance during ayub era?

> Baluchistan situation <-- Messiah Bhuto .... Bugti was killed by MUSH.. yes zulfi started it but what did zia and mush do... they further aggravated the situation... and where is ISI in stopping funding and arming of BLA ?

> Jihadi element of our society <-- sure, ISI worked with CIA, but what did the Shaheedah Bhutto,... first you answer me where was this element befor 1977 i.e., Zia.. he created it for his own interests i.e., the army created it... and was ISI ever fully under civilian control

> Sectarianism <--- corrupt judges, police... agreed.. they helped it survive but it originated in Jhang during which ere... i hope you know the answer

> mqm <---PPP/PMLN/etc/etc/etc all the same... no not at all.... they came into this business of violence much later... mqm were the pioneers of violent politics.. yet an other gift of ZIA

> religious intolerance <-- lack of spending on education... the literacy rate was far less in 60s and 70s yet we were more intolerant society. It was the era of 80's the era of Mard-e-momin mard-e-haq era the Zia era when we were made into religiously intolerant... blasphemy law and other religious practices were forced on our broad minded nation....ask someone what was the situation of restaurants in ramadan in 60s and 70s.

> war on terror spilling into Pakistan <-- who doesnt have the ball$ to finish them?... Mush didnt have balls when they were spreading??

> for all the bomb blasts whose material came in Pakistan by crossing the borders under the watchful eyes of our army <-- and politicians want to cozy up to the enemies of Pakistan... and this makes the eyes of our jawans shut? the army must do their job regardless of whatever is taking place at diplomatic level.... did any politician ever say to the army to relax border patrol and let 10% bombs come inside cause we are getting friendly to India

> tribal area's unrest <-- lack of state law enforcement... army ruled for nearly 40 years.. what did they do?

> causing democracy not to flourish <-- democracy only flourishes if the people want it to, people only want it to if the democracy gives them something... democracy never gives immediately to the people... look at india.. or if you are a student of history study british politicians a century back or americans... slowly but gradually democracy filters out rubbish... one has to be patient unlike our power thirsty unifromed men.

> kargil deaths <-- who disowned those men?... why were they made to die in the first place?? under what authority an army general can decide to wage a war without taking orders from his civilian boss?

> siachien <-- lets have PMLN send it's army to retake it.... why did zia gift it to India... whose incompetency resulted in this... was that person ever tried?

Take care

under bhutto, the marri's and bugti's were butchered by his trustly general tikka khan...c~1978 on orders of a civilian govt.

 

[fatman17]

purple butcher...all is not as black & white as you seem it to be....there are many hues of grey.....

 

[Zarvan]

When Pakistan have civilian power? This is new to me and i only saw dynastic power in Pakistan. CIVILIAN POWER WHENWHERE

Yes they didn't had any power without power they made billions and looted this country and shifted that money to secret accounts in Swiss and other Banks

 

[PurpleButcher]

purple butcher...all is not as black & white as you seem it to be....there are many hues of grey.....

I agree but my point is one should not absolve our power thirsty army generals of their crimes. They owe their apologies to the nation as well. And on the point of Baluchistan, yes bhutto started it but zia and mush didn't rectify it so two army dictators with combined 20 years of rule must also be answerable to the Baluch problem along with zulfiqar ali bhutto. You can and should blame bhutto for starting it but zia and mush should also be blamed for not stopping it rather mush aggravated the situation.

Nothing in life is balck/white... grey is dominant colour out there.. i know.. but the civilians are blamed endlessly.... when will the army accept its intentional and unintentional follies committed in the past 67 years??? when will the nation hear army saying sorry for martial laws, when will it say sorry for kargil? the nation also owes an apology from the uniformed angels of Pakistan!!!

PS:- In the last sentence i used also... implying civilians also have had their shit but army was not free of any fault!!

 

[PurpleButcher]

they were better off then than now......go ask the iraqis and libyans...

I wonder what the kurds have to say about saddam regime?... yes these days they are lot worse... but had their been democracy in iraq it would have been moving along slowly but surely towards a very strong power in the middle east.

One must not forget it were the dictators themselves which became the apparent cause of invasion and current turmoil.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Military rule or no military rule---the nation comes first---regardless of what the differences are---the politicians need to work under the given conditions to move the nation forward.

So---when Musharraf asked Imran Khan to work with him and take the premiership---that was Imran's moment-----. Just like all of us pray and wish to win the lottery----the thing is that the lottery does not always come thru the predictable routes----like winning the lottery thru a lottery ticket---.

That moment was Imran's lottery come true----God gave him the chance---good or bad----he could have grabbed the moment ---he chose not to do it-----was he a coward---only he knows.

Musharraf gave the opportunity to Shahbaz first---he refused---was too scared of his brother---the nation needed a great administrator like Shahbaz----the money was there---the resources were there---would he have made a difference for the nation---absolutely---.

Country was full of funds---peoples party was being left out----. Life was good for paks---economy was booming---businesses were good---they were rolling----. So when the terrs turned against Pakistan and started suicide bombings---paks started to blame Musharraf for that----.

The political parties of PPP and muslim league N created the issue and slowly and methodically they started to turn the nation against Musharraf---PAKISTANIS started dreaming that it was not their MUSLIM BROTHERS but a foreign hand doing the killings----the reputation of isi was being tarnished---and Pakistanis obliged by participating actively against their own agency---.

You people know the rest of the story---. The good times came----and nobody knew how to keep them going---.

 

[MastanKhan]

I agree but my point is one should not absolve our power thirsty army generals of their crimes. They owe their apologies to the nation as well. And on the point of Baluchistan, yes bhutto started it but zia and mush didn't rectify it so two army dictators with combined 20 years of rule must also be answerable to the Baluch problem along with zulfiqar ali bhutto. You can and should blame bhutto for starting it but zia and mush should also be blamed for not stopping it rather mush aggravated the situation.

Nothing in life is balck/white... grey is dominant colour out there.. i know.. but the civilians are blamed endlessly.... when will the army accept its intentional and unintentional follies committed in the past 67 years??? when will the nation hear army saying sorry for martial laws, when will it say sorry for kargil? the nation also owes an apology from the uniformed angels of Pakistan!!!

PS:- In the last sentence i used also... implying civilians also have had their shit but army was not free of any fault!!

Sir,

Since when hav the politicians accepted their mistakes----not one of them has stepped forward and taken responsibility of their actions or lack of actions---.

Why should the military say sorry for kargil---they achieved their military goal---it was the weak politician that failed---.

As for Akbar Bugti---his time had come---he knew his time was up---he wanted to go fighting like a lion---. He was old---old people have issues----the joints creak---the bones hurt----the hemorrhoids are extremely painful---high blood pressure----losing eye sight----there are a million and on thing that old people suffer from----and I would bet that Akbar Bugti would have wanted to live like a warrior that he was and not some weak old cripple that old age brings on. He made a choice to fight and he died fighting---.

Zia's martial law was brought on by the people----the public forced him----and I was also one of the public----Musharraf's martial law was also forced by the public---. But the public forgot that it was them who brought Musharraf in-----the public turned against their own military and started favoring the terrorists----.

The Pakistanis then got what they deserved the most---Asif Zardari---what a punishment from Allah-----who could have ever imagined that this criminal would be the president of Pakistan for 5 years----indeed Allah set His disgrace on the people of Pakistan and gave them what they deserved the most-----Allah o Akbar.

 

[fatman17]

I agree but my point is one should not absolve our power thirsty army generals of their crimes. They owe their apologies to the nation as well. And on the point of Baluchistan, yes bhutto started it but zia and mush didn't rectify it so two army dictators with combined 20 years of rule must also be answerable to the Baluch problem along with zulfiqar ali bhutto. You can and should blame bhutto for starting it but zia and mush should also be blamed for not stopping it rather mush aggravated the situation.

Nothing in life is balck/white... grey is dominant colour out there.. i know.. but the civilians are blamed endlessly.... when will the army accept its intentional and unintentional follies committed in the past 67 years??? when will the nation hear army saying sorry for martial laws, when will it say sorry for kargil? the nation also owes an apology from the uniformed angels of Pakistan!!!

PS:- In the last sentence i used also... implying civilians also have had their shit but army was not free of any fault!!

my friend we agree to disagree - this narrative has been going on for 60+ years with no end in sight. the biggest vaccum PK has faced in these tumultous years is LEADERSHIP.

 

[PurpleButcher]

Sir,

Since when did the politicians accepted their mistakes----

Simple reply... never... but all i was saying is they are blamed endlessly... the army is seldom asked questions about their decisions?

my friend we agree to disagree - this narrative has been going on for 60+ years with no end in sight. the biggest vaccum PK has faced in these tumultous years is LEADERSHIP

I agree... its a chicken and egg problem... you may say civilians started it... i say army started it... but the point is no one is accepting their faults and without acknowledgement of the faults of history we can never move on because we wont have learned the lesson of history and we will continue committing the same mistakes as done by our previous generations hoping for different results... Einstein called this insanity. To sum it up I owe debt to no one... rather many individuals and institutions owe debts to the nation.

 

[MastanKhan]

Simple reply... never... but all i was saying is they are blamed endlessly... the army is seldom asked questions about their decisions?
.

My brother,

All I have ever heard on the tv was the pak military being smashed all the time---I have not heard a single politician take the blame. Maybe I have not watched pak tv for the last few years I guess.

 

[PurpleButcher]

My brother,

All I have ever heard on the tv was the pak military being smashed all the time---I have not heard a single politician take the blame. Maybe I have not watched pak tv for the last few years I guess.

My brother,

Has army ever cared what media people talk about? have they ever let the masses know the truth behind Kargil? Have they ever answered why did ISI give money to IJI? have they answered any accusations? Have they ever accepted their faults? Have they ever apologized to the nation? Have they ever answered why did the sell people for 5000 USD to USA during Mush era?

Brother, please try to understand, when army does its job, for which it is paid, it not any favour to the nation rather it is their duty. But when they have done things other than their duties, they should be held responsible for it.

 

[MastanKhan]

My brother,

Has army ever cared what media people talk about? have they ever let the masses know the truth behind Kargil? Have they ever answered why did ISI give money to IJI? have they answered any accusations? Have they ever accepted their faults? Have they ever apologized to the nation? Have they ever answered why did the sell people for 5000 USD to USA during Mush era?

Brother, please try to understand, when army does its job, for which it is paid, it not any favour to the nation rather it is their duty. But when they have done things other than their duties, they should be held responsible for it.

Hi,

One should never ask the military to make justification of their actions on a public forum---like tv---radio---news paper.One should consider it a favor when the military does the job what it is paid for----ask the people of Iraq----and see what the paid military does----or the afghan military.

You never put down your warriors---they may have gone astray----but they are not beyond redemption---. They still stand tall and salute the flag and lay down their lives for it as well without asking a question.