The Danger of Chinese Arrogance

[Fattyacids]

1. Language is largely a result of economic need, cultural attraction, and religious and other use.
Economic need ofcourse, but that has nothing to do with soft-power. All the westerners posted in China by western media know chinese, but you know how antagonistic they are. Also, Chinese language is beautiful, no doubt. But that is due to historical richness, not the richness of today's China. You are just capitalizing on the work of your ancestors.

2. Not today's culture. Capitalizing on past culture. Also made famous largely by HK movies of the British Era. Jackie Chen, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, all HK actors grown up in British system. Here I'm not talking about the capability of Chinese people, who are incredibly talented. I am talking about systems, and my argument is that until there is a more open system, not necessarily democratic, culture won't flourish that much.

3. Past culture. Helped my huge Chinese immigration to all countries.

4. It is only big in likes of Sotherby's etc. where people buy old art at huge prices. Again old cultural glory. Rather some of the best known modern Chinese artists like Ai Weiwei are in prison.

5. Even I am looking to visit. But again it is cultural tradition. Your incredible cultural traditions. Tell me successes of today. I never said there is no liking of your culture, I am saying that you are not producing any more culture.


Also, even in these things, your opponents and even enemies have embraced Chinese culture, yet rejected China. Just see HK. They love Chinese culture, but many think China is not the same. Your Government is not seen by many as the true representation of Chinese history and culture by many. It is also hard to argue when the whole Cultural Revolution was about erasing your beautiful culture.

Soft power entails economic and cultural power.

1) The growing popularity in Chinese language is a validation of Chinese soft power.

2) Art-house scene are dominated by Chinese mainland. Mainland films had won every major awards in every category, best director, picture, actors, screenplay: Zhang Yimou, Chen Kaige, Ge You, Jia Zhangke, Diao Yinan......

Pre-1997 Hong Kong movies are made by Chinese, not British. Regardless who governed HK, the credit goes to the people who made the movies.

3) Culture has no past or present, it's either dead or alive. Perhaps, you meant pop culture. That's just one aspect of culture.

4) Chinese arts, not just antique. Ai Weiwei is famous only because of his politics.

5) Again, I think you're equating "pop culture" with culture.

I can also say I dislike American political system, but I like American pop culture. Political system/government do not own culture. No form of government, democratic or communist, can be called representation of a country's culture. It sounds asburd that ROC would be a truer representation of Chinese culture than PRC.

No culture can be wiped out unless you killed all people. Certainly not by a revolution.

 

[airmarshal]

If its arrogance, then there is no country in the region more arrogant than India. Its behavior towards its neighbors is an example.

 

[AgentOrange]

Money and Power is not everything in the world.

When it comes to international relations, it really is.

Sure

It seems you've already made up your mind that no matter what evidence people like Yizhi present, China has zero soft power. So why bother having a discussion when you yourself do not have an open mind (ironically the same accusation you level at China)? Why the pretense?

 

[opruh]

I think the real arrogant country is the one that is only good at talking and bragging which is India.

 

[TaiShang]

This Indian has been on a trolling spree recently, pretending to be open-minded and academic but in fact seeking flame-wars through attempting agitation, which does not work for him.

If you browse through his posts, it is obvious that he is on a mission that is least related to a sincere effort to learn. His links and lists show what kind of "learner" he is and where he gets his information.

The guy is lecturing and arrogant and, in spite of the Chinese members' amazing tolerance and understanding (which runs counter to his own "arrogant" attitude of which he blames China), he is as close minded as a stone.

Why engage an (probably previously banned for less-crafty anti-China trolling) Indian on issues that are not even remotely related to an Indian?

I guess it is better to prove his points right and be extremely neglectful of the person.

Simply report him and move on.

As you may know, these sort of Indians come up from time to time. You cannot convince them or move an inch from their fixations. That's impossible. They will simply move from one sensitive topic to another, trolling and flame-baiting along the way, and never giving ear to your points.

This sort of Indians' best tool is agitation. Just like this Indian who brought up Chairman Mao the other day on a topic related to China's technological development. Or brought up the issue of Taiwan's unification on a thread on China's HSR.

You know their main selling points. Give me a decent Indian that would discuss sincerely with you without bringing up and mingling together Chairman Mao, Taiwan, CCP, freedom of speech, Communist media, arrogance, SCS etc. Not possible.

The Indian even admitted that he was bothered by the plethora of good news coming from China and reported here.

I would suggest to ignore the Indian and report his trolling and flame-baiting posts.

@Hu Songshan , @Horus

 

[Genesis]

Yes, but ask honestly. Was the way your countrymen dealing with me, the way to win friends? Even when people are poor, everyone has their ego. Everyone. Even when China was very very poor, it refused to be dealt, atleast officially on an equal basis. Do you think this attitude wins friends?

First you are just going to have to deal with that attitude, this goes back a long ways, nobody knows who fired first, but at this point we are essentially at war...On this forum. You will see people of all origins act this way, aside from this is the internet, it's sort of the norm here now.

Again friends is very subjective, what do you consider a friend? China and Japan, friends or enemies? On the surface, enemies, but if you dig deeper, we are closer than some friends, FTAs, tech transfers, market share, largest trade partners, and more.

You also can't use this forum as a reflection, no Chinese leader ever told an Indian leader to shit in the woods and no Indian leader ever told me to suck something.

On face value, it seems China has no "friends", but in reality that is hardly the case.

When in doubt always look at hard facts that are not subject to interpretation, like biggest trade nation, most foreign leaders visit, founding member of many regional and international organizations.

Other things are subject to interpretation.

 

[Luca1]

If its arrogance, then there is no country in the region more arrogant than India. Its behavior towards its neighbors is an example.

Talk about arrogance, India like to brag about becoming a superpower more than any other people.
Just search facebook. There are more Indian superpower pages.

China walk the walk and gain respect all over the world g7 had to supplanted by g20 because China is not a member of g7.

 

[somsak]

They are not DNA embedded in the literal sense, but yes it is a fact that societies with closer genetic connections, have closer cultural histories. The whole DNA thing comes from the fact, that the more recent the two people diverge, the more similar histories they have. Hence, if you are related by blood connections, you also carry continuous cultural traits. Example- Language.

Name one actual ally India have, Russia doesn't count, because to you only American UK relationship are alliances. The kind 100% would come to your aid.

This is not bring India into it, but based on your own experience, what is an ally.

China doesn't have any strategic allies, not NK or Pakistan, we have good friends and better ones.

By isolation I meant friends or foes. India has only one sworn enemy - Pakistan. It has major adverserial relationship with China, and unfriendly relationship with Sri Lanka. There are some tensions with Bangladesh as well, but overall we have many friends in Bangla. Being democratic, we sit in the ideological coalition of the west and liberal countries. Japan, Russia and US are major friends.
Compared to that, China has more enemies. The public image perception can tell you that.​

China is the most visited country by foreign leaders, and has business relationships all over the world. To say China is isolated is easy, but is that really the truth? Dig a bit deeper and you will see we are not as isolated as you think.

Plus we are the biggest trade nation, that helps.

I am sorry, I should have been more careful with words. It is not really isolation that you I'm talking about. The isolation here is meant to tell the perception of country in their neighbourhood etc. You also face an ideological isolation, and if everything was equal, the west would choose India over China.​

The problem is China's wealth, you think if Taiwan and HK was reversed and in India's lap it be better with the "soft power?"

Not a slant on India, but just a FYI, all poor countries are bad to them. It'll be fixed soon, as we become richer and richer, the push back will be more, but as soon as hope of regaining their place as richer than us, that will be over.

For Tibet, you won't believe me, but there's a reason Lama has failed so miserably for so long.

For HK and Taiwan. Yes, part of the problem is wealth. But a larger part is ideological, and spiritual gap between people. Had it only been wealth, why would then the HK problem worsen in the recent years? HK identity is getting stronger and stronger, and Chinese identity is weakening there. Also, you people are totally weak in explaining your situation to the rest of the world. Do I think India would have dealt with both the issues in a much better way? Yes. Actually wealth is a very good way to isolate people and gain support. Everyone likes to go after rich guys. India has already proven immense assimilation potential by building an Indian identity where there was none. Democracies, which by their definition involve public opinion and image, are much better in soft-power and creating common identity.​

Say what, if you mean make them vassals again, that's not how it works now. If you mean good relations, Korea China relations is all time high, Vietnam needs work.

Korea-China. Yes. I am not asking you to make them vassals again. I am asking you to make them the modern equivalent of vassals. The kind of relationship US has with Canada. Is your relationship that strong? No way near. And relationship with Vietnam, Japan and Philippines is altogether a different story.​

Again, you need to wake up and smell the coffee, everybody's good at something, even American DDG-1000 uses Royce engines. Germany is not ahead of China in all fields, or even most fields.



Nobody but US have any of that, or one of the old imperial powers. Even Japan. India is not better, India at most is the same place as China, except China is now in the role of international spy and sophisticated enemy in Western movies and rich business leaders willing to tilt the favor in Korean movies.

Don't say bollywood, cause nobody outside of overseas Indians or Indians watches it. I only mentioned India cause you did.

Wait I'm writing a post about that. I will prove to you that by many metrics Bollywood and other Indian cinemas are better than Chinese mainland one. (not including HK, because while HK comes under China technically, it still can't be counted completely. And since, we are talking about soft-power issues of systems, we must focus on cinema that has been brought up in Chinese system.)​

Honest, maybe, frank possibly, fact? Hardly.

Name the fact that you disagree with after my clarifications. Leave for a while that Bollywood one, I will prove that later. Apart from that which don't you agree with.​

And you just support my point. No matter what the reason is, thai culture are amalgumatr of ancient Chinese and Ancient India. so your previous answer should have been Yes, followed by your reasoning.

 

[Aepsilons]

There was a time not long back when China was truly in many ways the center of the world. The Chinese Empire had close to a quarter of the global population and a third of its wealth. And most strikingly that excluded vassal states and kingdoms like Korea and Vietnam, which were at that point of time totally, completely and exclusively linked to China. It was understandable hence, that the Chinese Emperor and Empresses, didn't foresee a time when this fundamental reality can all but be totally altered. This state of mind naturally led to a supreme confidence of well-being and prosperity, with officials totally mindless of the condition of the outside world, simply missed the great things about to begin in a totally remote, "barbarian" part of the world, which would come to permanently alter the landscape of the whole world.

The Industrial revolution, with accompanying wonders of mass production and demand of resources, led to the active exploration of resources and colonies all around the world. Even when this fundamental colonial structure was undone in many parts of the world, it left deep and profound legacies like the western domination of 4 continents, by total domination and subjugation of original inhabitants, --- Australia, Siberia and the 2 Americas. It left a world order where the rules of the international system were already written to the advantage of those western powers, not to mention the first-mover advantage that they already had. Australia is a very curious case and end-result of this transformation. It is a country which was literally settled by prisoners who were exiled, who ended up colonizing perhaps the most mineral-rich continent in the world, and till today sit on those laurels. (80-90% of all Australian exports are composed of minerals, and raw materials, which it uses to live by and subsidize all other pursuits)

For China, all this started by the simple arrogance, and bland disregard for any opposing, challenging views on governance, trade or function. Officials, still selected by the centuries old examination of Confucian thought and literature, were all but inept at any modern tasks of governance. At the same time, they were patently corrupt, with zero desire to reform the system. Midway during the Industrial Revolution, when there were proposals to reform the system and economy on the lines of European countries to start its own industrialization -- somewhat like what Meiji did in Japan -- the court officials rejected the idea blatantly and completely. The primary motive seemed to be the preservation of their own "Mandarin power", the power vested in the Mandarins of the empire. Any person asking for reform was termed a traitor to the divine kingdom -- the Central State -- and to the heavenly and celestial emperor of the Kingdom.

Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce.

— Qianlong Emperor, Second Edict to King George III of England, 1792
​

There are worrying trends in the present Chinese system, that present an image of further entrenchment of vested interests of the modern day Mandarins in the system. Shadowed by the glorious achievements of the last 3 decades, which no country has been able to keep up with, let alone compete, the benefactors of system are getting increasingly intolerant of any criticism. They are also getting arrogant. Almost any Chinese person within the system that wants to do anything, is labelled "western sympathizer" and a disgrace to the "Chinese People." Political reform and evolution has been put on total hold. The system has become extremely intolerant towards diverse views.

(This post is not complete. I just got tired. I have to do more to prove myself and my hypothesis. I will keep updating this post. Meanwhile I will appreciate any comments and discussions.)

A very interesting analysis. In regards to the Qianlong Emperor, it would be best to examine His Imperial Majesty's foreign policy and apply that to the context of your article. His Imperial Majesty was actually quite the Interventionist.

There was a time not long back when China was truly in many ways the center of the world. The Chinese Empire had close to a quarter of the global population and a third of its wealth. And most strikingly that excluded vassal states and kingdoms like Korea and Vietnam, which were at that point of time totally, completely and exclusively linked to China. It was understandable hence, that the Chinese Emperor and Empresses, didn't foresee a time when this fundamental reality can all but be totally altered. This state of mind naturally led to a supreme confidence of well-being and prosperity, with officials totally mindless of the condition of the outside world, simply missed the great things about to begin in a totally remote, "barbarian" part of the world, which would come to permanently alter the landscape of the whole world.

The Industrial revolution, with accompanying wonders of mass production and demand of resources, led to the active exploration of resources and colonies all around the world. Even when this fundamental colonial structure was undone in many parts of the world, it left deep and profound legacies like the western domination of 4 continents, by total domination and subjugation of original inhabitants, --- Australia, Siberia and the 2 Americas. It left a world order where the rules of the international system were already written to the advantage of those western powers, not to mention the first-mover advantage that they already had. Australia is a very curious case and end-result of this transformation. It is a country which was literally settled by prisoners who were exiled, who ended up colonizing perhaps the most mineral-rich continent in the world, and till today sit on those laurels. (80-90% of all Australian exports are composed of minerals, and raw materials, which it uses to live by and subsidize all other pursuits)

For China, all this started by the simple arrogance, and bland disregard for any opposing, challenging views on governance, trade or function. Officials, still selected by the centuries old examination of Confucian thought and literature, were all but inept at any modern tasks of governance. At the same time, they were patently corrupt, with zero desire to reform the system. Midway during the Industrial Revolution, when there were proposals to reform the system and economy on the lines of European countries to start its own industrialization -- somewhat like what Meiji did in Japan -- the court officials rejected the idea blatantly and completely. The primary motive seemed to be the preservation of their own "Mandarin power", the power vested in the Mandarins of the empire. Any person asking for reform was termed a traitor to the divine kingdom -- the Central State -- and to the heavenly and celestial emperor of the Kingdom.

Our Celestial Empire possesses all things in prolific abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of outside barbarians in exchange for our own produce.

— Qianlong Emperor, Second Edict to King George III of England, 1792
​

There are worrying trends in the present Chinese system, that present an image of further entrenchment of vested interests of the modern day Mandarins in the system. Shadowed by the glorious achievements of the last 3 decades, which no country has been able to keep up with, let alone compete, the benefactors of system are getting increasingly intolerant of any criticism. They are also getting arrogant. Almost any Chinese person within the system that wants to do anything, is labelled "western sympathizer" and a disgrace to the "Chinese People." Political reform and evolution has been put on total hold. The system has become extremely intolerant towards diverse views.

(This post is not complete. I just got tired. I have to do more to prove myself and my hypothesis. I will keep updating this post. Meanwhile I will appreciate any comments and discussions.)

A very interesting read, but let me introduce a concept for all of us (and for you) to consider. Manifest Destiny. That term was used by American Pro-Imperialists , Expansionists as a legitimizing factor for the western expansion of the country throughout the North American continent. This concept of Manifest Destiny could be argued as an Imperial Paradigm that the Imperial Qing Dynasty used as basis to to rule and govern territories throughout Zhongguo (China). The Emperor , as the Son of Heaven, held the Mandate to rule. What foreign states might have considered "arrogance" , the Chinese people knew and accepted as reality. Perhaps we should consider this in analyzing China's foreign policy during the Imperial Epoch.


Thanks,

 

[fallstuff]

Well, China reached this in 3 decades, we may not surpass you, but a lot can be done surely.
Also, this all, again, is not soft-power.

Also, sorry to say, this is not the most respectful way to talk to anyone. You yourselves don't have soft-power. Showing ones success in this way normally doesn't earn friends. Money and Power is not everything in the world.

Here is a little fact to you, there are probably 5 Chinese restaurants for every McDonald in America. All the places I lived in America, the local Chinese restaurant was probably more closer to me than the local McDonald.

I did green beans and grilled chicken Chinese take out today for lunch.

 

[Aepsilons]

Here is a little fact to you, there are probably 5 Chinese restaurants for every McDonald in America. All the places I lived in America, the local Chinese restaurant was probably more closer to me than the local McDonald.

I did green beans and grilled chicken Chinese take out today for lunch.

lol.

offtopic. I stopped by Walmart today to buy a new office chair. After assembling it, i noticed that manufacturer's name is "Qianlong Chair Inc".

 

[Yizhi]

China has done really well and most likely will continue to do so. Some countries have been over critical of Chinese govt. Reason I guess Chinese are thought of as arrogant is 1. They have border issues. Some countries are lucky enough to have clear non contentious borders but China due to its size, number of neighbours and other reasons inherited some border issues. For example Indians do not have any issue with China except for border problems. Quite unlikely that we will have a very positive view of china till border issues are resolved. Same is true for few other countries. Now even if it does something in SCS people in India think that it is being arrogant.
2. China might be more capitalist than communist now but name is still communist party. And west will always have some propaganda against Communist.
3. Chinese people seem to be very aggressive against any criticism. They usually blindly dismiss it and seem arrogant.

i think this narrative of 'arrogant or not' is irrelevant, pure impression. how much of this is arrogance? or simply more confidence? as long as the 'arrogance' does not blind the Chinese from learning from the rest of the world, we are fine.
1. border issues are not new, it's history that we can't change.
2. true. we are utilitarian. Communist Party could change it's name into 'Chinese Party' for more accuracy.
3. to be honest, many of those criticisms are out of pure ignorance. the gap between the reality in China and how it's been reported in foreign media is so huge (it's actually better now compared with 10 or 20 years ago) that we have websites translating those criticism as jokes just for fun.

 

[Cossack25A1]

It is pretty much unknown to common Filipinos but if you were to remove Spanish and American cultural influence, you will find that our culture has Chinese, Indian, Arab (through Islam) and Malay culture, this include language, norms, beliefs in karma and feng shui even though most Filipinos are Catholic with some being Muslim, both of which do not believe in the concept of karma and feng shui.

It is said that Binondo is the site of the oldest (and still existing) Chinatown in the world.

 

[Aepsilons]

It is pretty much unknown to common Filipinos but if you were to remove Spanish and American cultural influence, you will find that our culture has Chinese, Indian, Arab (through Islam) and Malay culture, this include language, norms, beliefs in karma and feng shui even though most Filipinos are Catholic with some being Muslim, both of which do not believe in the concept of karma and feng shui.

It is said that Binondo is the site of the oldest (and still existing) Chinatown in the world.

Ever heard of Limahong ? He was a Chinese pirate warlord that tried to establish his own Kingdom in Luzon.

Limahong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TaiShang]

This thread is emblematic of the danger of Indian inefficiency.