The curious case of Indian Punjabis

[airuah]

Okay i ll do it again.....

If u go thru this thread some members pointed out that people from both sides of punjab cannot live together because of the barbaric acts that they committed during the partition. they think just coz some people from both sides behaved like animals we are condemned to be enemies for ever.I am using 1984 riots,godhra etc as a reference to indicate that even in India some innocent sikhs,muslims ,christians and even hindus in some cases have been murdered for no reason but still being a sikh i do not consider all the hindus as my enemies...i still live in peace with most of them....then why doesnt the same logic hold for people from pakistan

let me answer this......

the reason why Pakistan and India cannot behave the way we Indians behave among ourselves i.e...even after every communal violence we do get along.......is because of the Idea of Pakistan......

Pakistan was created for the purpose of being an Islamic state.....a state for Muslims who felt that they cannot live along side people of other faiths just because they were a minority......that basic idea is inbread in them...they cannot live with others......
they might argue that they too have Christians and Hindus in Pakistan...but these are the people who stayed back in Pakistan coz they did not want to move from a land they were born in and they were people who felt they could live anong side Muslims....see the mentality is just different......

it just happens that we Indians proved them wrong ,....even though we have our skirmishes within our communal classes...when it comes as a nation we are one....undivided.....this is a fact that Pakistan cannot accept..and will not accept because the the Idea of a separate nation becomes flawed.........dont know how the People of Pakistan perceive this fact, this would appear as utter rubbish to them because the communal infighiting with India at times may justify the reason for their separation....but even then you can never say that Pakistan has never had its share of violence and Riots one way or the other....

 

[raavan]

Bro, the primary factor in co-existence is to accept each other's existence as we are. Then we can move ahead. So there are several differences and impediments but the easiet thing to work on right now is on economics.

The way I see it, everything is made redundant by commerce. A poor enemy is dangerous because they have nothing to lose (khud to doobenge par tujhko bhi le doobenge sanam ) while a prospering enemy has a lot to lose so the stakes are higher and MAD comes in to play.

So the trade and commerce between both countries needs to be encouraged and everything will automatically take a back seat (sabse bada rupaiya bhai). India has been totally forthcoming in this aspect and there have been positive developments in Pakistan too in recent days (although the slight backtrack on the MFN shows the Army hand anyway). So the progress will clearly be slow and with the economic growth, the onus of development will be with civilians and not with the army and that will make the army's interference redundant because there is nothing bigger than economic protection.

People will never have a problem because people are basically good. It is actually the plans that are a stimulus which make people behave differently.

I would really not lose a lot of sleep on this. Everything is only moving to be better. Let us hope that it continues and there may be a day when these borders even when there, will be redundant in the needed sense. All in good time though.

excellent sir......

 

[GURU DUTT]

Bro, the primary factor in co-existence is to accept each other's existence as we are. Then we can move ahead. So there are several differences and impediments but the easiet thing to work on right now is on economics.

The way I see it, everything is made redundant by commerce. A poor enemy is dangerous because they have nothing to lose (khud to doobenge par tujhko bhi le doobenge sanam ) while a prospering enemy has a lot to lose so the stakes are higher and MAD comes in to play.

So the trade and commerce between both countries needs to be encouraged and everything will automatically take a back seat (sabse bada rupaiya bhai). India has been totally forthcoming in this aspect and there have been positive developments in Pakistan too in recent days (although the slight backtrack on the MFN shows the Army hand anyway). So the progress will clearly be slow and with the economic growth, the onus of development will be with civilians and not with the army and that will make the army's interference redundant because there is nothing bigger than economic protection.

People will never have a problem because people are basically good. It is actually the plans that are a stimulus which make people behave differently.

I would really not lose a lot of sleep on this. Everything is only moving to be better. Let us hope that it continues and there may be a day when these borders even when there, will be redundant in the needed sense. All in good time though.

Sir your quite right that if trade takes place between the two countries enomosity will get diluted but not in this case as general pakistani publik is very apprehansive about indians & more so when the jaelousy towards hindus in there mind is so strong ...

hint#1 : roits of 1947

hint #2 : all the threads about toilets,poverty,cow urine ...ect

Point is there can be no good relations between india & pakistan ..period .

 

[HZR2011]

15 commit suicide every hour in India, majority victims married: Report

why?? because of unfavorable social circumstances in India.

japan has highest suicide rate,does that mean they hate their country????

once again,which standard are u studying in??

 

[Guest01]

Sir your quite right that if trade takes place between the two countries enomosity will get diluted but not in this case as general pakistani publik is very apprehansive about indians & more so when the jaelousy towards hindus in there mind is so strong ...

hint#1 : roits of 1947

hint #2 : all the threads about toilets,poverty,cow urine ...ect

Point is there can be no good relations between india & pakistan ..period .

bhai, public is gullible everywhere. They also believe that 72 hoors are waiting somewhere after they blow off their genitals with a bomb. So that propaganda will be there but the important thing to see is if this is the mainstream discourse. Even when it is, then this discourse changes to adapt overtime because the politicians will beat the hog only till it is profitable. And then they get a new hog.

So over time you never know. There will be jokes. Polish are the butt of jokes in Europe but non one is out to kill them over there.

And I would not take the members on this forum or any other such internet forum as a realistic sample of the polity in its true nature in any country. People actually do not do on face the things that they claim they will do on the internet.

 

[kobiraaz]

Well,that was 15 minutes of my life reading this thread that I will never get back.Are you talking about the same Punjab where enrolling in the Indian Armed Forces is taken as a matter of family prestige?The same Sikhs who risk their life and limbs to protect all of us,be it a Hyderabadi or a Madrassi?Whose bravery and dedication to the nation can be seen with the number of Param Vir Chakras gone to Punjab putting the rest of the states to shame?The same Punjab where truck drivers proudly stick "Doodh maango ge,toh Kheer denge..." at the backs of their trucks?

That is the Punjab we know.

I was also a fan of bollywood movie some years ago

 

[GURU DUTT]

bhai, public is gullible everywhere. They also believe that 72 hoors are waiting somewhere after they blow off their genitals with a bomb. So that propaganda will be there but the important thing to see is if this is the mainstream discourse. Even when it is, then this discourse changes to adapt overtime because the politicians will beat the hog only till it is profitable. And then they get a new hog.

So over time you never know. There will be jokes. Polish are the butt of jokes in Europe but non one is out to kill them over there.

And I would not take the members on this forum or any other such internet forum as a realistic sample of the polity in its true nature in any country. People actually do not do on face the things that they claim they will do on the internet.

Respected sir i dont know in what kind of world you live in ...but the ground reality is very different..

Mark my words there can be no equal partenership (thats most important for any relation ship ) as they still belive in the propoganda which is fed to them for the last 64 odd years & there is no reason to belive that it will loose its potency anytime soon ..but then ??????????

 

[IND151]

The bold part is something highly controversial --there are loads of evidences both for and against this. The history of the subcontinent itself is filled with conflicting evidences. With rulers ranging from benevolent Akbar to bigots like Aurangzeb.

However , my point was

Since its an Islamic republic , on paper at least it means or at least gives an impression that Muslims would have greater prominence than any other minority. And if the growth of minorities in your society --on a social , cultural and economic basis is anything to go by --it certainly seems so.

The Sikhs found it unacceptable at partition that Punjab should be included in the Muslim bloc , for the fear that "it would imperil Sikh culture " --as per Baldev Singh's words ( representative of Sikhs at Mountbatton's round Table ).

Their fears were credible then and considering the situation in Pakistan today , with hardly any Sikh in a significant position in mainstream Pakistani establishments ( I am talking of Sikh senior ministers , Sikh army Chiefs , Sikh --heads of Intelligence etc --Yes they are hardworking and integrate well into any society they are a part of --so their absence in Pakistan is an anomaly of the highest order), it seems the choice of Sikhs to go with India is perfectly justified.

Also let me relieve you of this false notion that we "Hate Islam" --We are avowedly secular --i.e we just don't give much importance to religion and use it as a benchmark to distinguish . What we really hate is fundamentalism , extremism --and that goes for in the Hindu religion , Islam or even Christianity .

Indian society has in the last 50 years evolved to a progressive, moderate and tolerant one which allows a person to thrive regardless of his religious or ethnic affiliations . That's all .

couldn't agree more

 

[ARYAVEER]

and according to my experience an average pakistani muslim does not justify partition holocaust either and do not hate sikhs

Not very sure about that.I have seen many people in mainstream Pakistani Media Bashing Sikhs for their role in Violence during Partition.I have seen Hassan Nisar , Zaid hamid etc Talking about how Sikhs used to kill innocent Muslims Migrating to Pakistan.Also on Some other threads I SAW a Lahori guy saying that the kids there are taught to hate Sikhs.Also in some areas of Pakistan "Sikh" is Considered as a "Gaali" ,in a Youtube video Tarak Fateh Pakistani Canadian was saying that He was told in Childhood that Sikhs and Hindus are dirty People.While talking about Partition violence they do not mention the violence committed by Punjabi Muslims upon Sikhs/Hindus, in their books kids are taught that Sikhs and Hindus massacred the Muslims and the Muslims were doomed in the indian Punjab and Hindus and Sikhs were given safe passage by Muslims of Newly created Pakistani state.

Some excerpts from Pakistani School Books
* "After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab" Class X

“The Muslims of Pakistan provided all the facilities to the Hindus and Sikhs who
left for India. But the Hindus and Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both
hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore
about 1 million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.”

“Sikhs destroyed the Muslim towns from the river Sutlej to the river Jamna. A
number of times the Sikhs crossed the river Jamna and looted and destroyed the
settlements of the Muslims. They turned the mosques into their ‘Gurdawaras’,
demolished the shrines of the Muslim saints and burnt religious schools and
libraries.”

There are probably more , So I really have doubts that Pakistanis have forgiven and forgotten.And recently there was a book by a Pakistani which Talks about the Sikh Plan to Wipe out Muslims from eastern punjab.
Extract: The Punjab Bloodied Partitioned and Cleansed « readiscover

And The two nation theory is not only relevant with Hindu and Muslims it is also relevant among Muslims and Sikhs, our heroes are there villains and vice versa.Sikhs consider Abdali, Aurangzeb etc as Villains and tyrants whereas in my knowledge Pakistanis Punjabi consider them as heroes ,fair and just rulers who did great things for Islam and i haven't seen one Pakistani criticizing them for the massacres of Sikhs and Sikh gurus however i have seen plenty of them taking pride in it... They are Heroes for them.Whereas Sikh Heroes like Maharaja Ranjit Singh ,Hari Singh nalwa etc are considered as cruel and tyrants by Punjabi Muslims who think that they used to persecute Muslims and used to destroy and turn their mosques into stables ,used to forcibly convert them and massacre them.he is probably considered as villain as far as i know.The Sikh reign (confederacy and Empire) is also considered as the Dark(est) period in the history of region,whereas Islamic rule is considered as peaceful (Sikhs will Disagree with that).

The era of internet also will not help in people forgetting the differences.People will never forget when they see the one sided stories of Survivors and refugees and how Sikhs Killed Muslims and forcibly converted them.And Pakistanis Punjabis Consider that it was the Sikhs Who were responsible for STARTING the Violence and they hardly and reluctantly admit the violence committed by their People even when they do they say it was mere retaliation and revenge.videos of movies like GADAR and Partition etc also rekindle the hatred.

Its not about culture and Language these things take a back seat when it comes to politics or religious politics.Even if you leave out politics A Punjabi Muslim would Support a Muslim of any ethnicity/race/culture over a Punjabi Sikh and vice versa on a conflict (all things being equal).2002 Muslim (Gujarati) massacres will probably bother them more than Sikh Massacres of 1984, I have even seen many of them saying that 1984 was a punishment to them by Allah for what they did to Muslims in 1947. A PUNJABI Sikh is not a part of Ummah.Sikh muslim can get along very well if they are only looking towards common things like Bhangra,Food (they might quarrel over jhatka and halal though), ,Music (Even though Many Punjabi Muslims would like to claim that Punjabi folk songs are Pakistani Songs), Language (Gurumukhi Shahmukhi conflict may arise) etc but these are not just the things which will appear and will be there to deal with when you live with each other for a long period of time with Sizable population and if you want to dilute Borders.You can only live together when you are forced to live together by a Superior third party (like Imperial British,Or a Secular govt etc), or when one community forms a negligible minority not strong enough politically or Militarily to oppose dominance of one culture,and able to fight for their rights in a violent way (which is the case in Both Punjabs today when SiKHS and muslims do not have much problem) , but when there is a sizable population of both communities on both Sides and if both are politically and militarily strong enough and there is no umbrella of a Superior third power to Check them , the conflicts are bound to arise over differences of Religion, ideology,script etc.Sikhs being welcomed during their Pilgrimage,Sikh marriage Act being implemented in Pakistan and Muslim Punjabi artists being loved by Sikhs is not related to politics or Demographic changes,or political threat, conflicts arise when one side feel insecure about the dominance of other and is strong enough to resist through Arms, which will be the case if borders are removed. So Border is there for a very good reason.


These are my views no offense to anyone.

 

[Guest01]

Respected sir i dont know in what kind of world you live in ...but the ground reality is very different..

Mark my words there can be no equal partenership (thats most important for any relation ship ) as they still belive in the propoganda which is fed to them for the last 64 odd years & there is no reason to belive that it will loose its potency anytime soon ..but then ??????????

Bhai, I meet a lot of Pakistanis. Most living in Middle East and also a few in East Asia. Even some from Pakistan too. Business. I even meet a lot of Chinese. They are not like the way we behave on internet. In reality people are different.

About equality, it is always relative and not absolute. There is nothing called absolute equality in behaviourial sciences. It exists only in quantum.

Hence there will be first and second and even last among equals always. But that is immaterial. What matters is that with the increase in prosperity the risk of losing it will get higher. That will natural mellow down the immediate threats that are quite visible now. That will be the general take on this. However, as it is all dynamic, you could very well be correct with your thougths about how things turn out. Can't dispute that bro.

 

[Guest01]

Not very sure about that.I have seen many people in mainstream Pakistani Media Bashing Sikhs for their role in Violence during Partition.I have seen Hassan Nisar , Zaid hamid etc Talking about how Sikhs used to kill innocent Muslims Migrating to Pakistan.Also on Some other threads I SAW a Lahori guy saying that the kids there are taught to hate Sikhs.Also in some areas of Pakistan "Sikh" is Considered as a "Gaali" ,in a Youtube video Tarak Fateh Pakistani Canadian was saying that He was told in Childhood that Sikhs and Hindus are dirty People.While talking about Partition violence they do not mention the violence committed by Punjabi Muslims upon Sikhs/Hindus, in their books kids are taught that Sikhs and Hindus massacred the Muslims and the Muslims were doomed in the indian Punjab and Hindus and Sikhs were given safe passage by Muslims of Newly created Pakistani state.

Some excerpts from Pakistani School Books
* "After the establishment of Pakistan the Hindus and Sikhs created a day of doom for the Muslims in East Punjab" Class X

“The Muslims of Pakistan provided all the facilities to the Hindus and Sikhs who
left for India. But the Hindus and Sikhs looted the Muslims in India with both
hands and they attacked their caravans, buses and railway trains. Therefore
about 1 million Muslims were martyred on their way to Pakistan.”

“Sikhs destroyed the Muslim towns from the river Sutlej to the river Jamna. A
number of times the Sikhs crossed the river Jamna and looted and destroyed the
settlements of the Muslims. They turned the mosques into their ‘Gurdawaras’,
demolished the shrines of the Muslim saints and burnt religious schools and
libraries.”

There are probably more , So I really have doubts that Pakistanis have forgiven and forgotten.And recently there was a book by a Pakistani which Talks about the Sikh Plan to Wipe out Muslims from eastern punjab.
Extract: The Punjab Bloodied Partitioned and Cleansed « readiscover

And The two nation theory is not only relevant with Hindu and Muslims it is also relevant among Muslims and Sikhs, our heroes are there villains and vice versa.Sikhs consider Abdali, Aurangzeb etc as Villains and tyrants whereas in my knowledge Pakistanis Punjabi consider them as heroes ,fair and just rulers who did great things for Islam and i haven't seen one Pakistani criticizing them for the massacres of Sikhs and Sikh gurus however i have seen plenty of them taking pride in it... They are Heroes for them.Whereas Sikh Heroes like Maharaja Ranjit Singh ,Hari Singh nalwa are considered as cruel and tyrants by punjabi muslims who think that they used to persecute Muslims and used to destroy and turn their mosques into stables ,used to forcibly convert them and massacre them.he is probably considered as villain as far as i know.The Sikh reign (confederacy and Empire) is also considered as the Dark(est) period in the history of region,whereas Islamic rule is considered as peaceful (Sikhs will Disagree with that).

The era of internet also will not help in people forgetting the differences.People will never forget when they see the one sided stories of Survivors and refugees and how Sikhs Killed Muslims and forcibly converted them.And pakistanis Punjabis Consider that it was the Sikhs Who were responsible for STARTING the Violence and they hardly and reluctantly admit the violence committed by their People,videos of movies like GADAR and Partition etc also rekindle the hatred.

Its not about culture and Language these things take a back seat when it comes to politics or religious politics.Even if you leave out politics A Punjabi Muslim would Support a Muslim of any ethnicity/race/culture over a Punjabi Sikh and vice versa on a conflict (all things being equal)2002 Muslim (Gujarati) massacres will probably bother them more than Sikh Massacres, I have even seen many of them saying that it 1984 was a punishment to them by Allah for what they did to Muslims in 1947. A PUNJABI Sikh is not a part of Ummah.Sikh muslim can get along very well if they are only looking towards common things like Bhangra,Food (they might quarrel over jhatka and halal though), ,Music , Language (Gurumukhi Shahmukhi conflict may arise) etc but these are not just the things which will appear and will be there to deal with when you live with each other for a long period of time with Sizable population and if you want to dilute Borders.You can only live together when you are forced to live together by a third party (like Imperial British,Or a Secular govt etc), or when one community forms a negligible minority not strong enough politically or Militarily to oppose dominance of one culture (which is the case in Both Punjabs today when SiKHS and muslims do not have much problem) , but when there is a sizable population of both communities on both Sides and if both are politically and militarily strong enough and there is no umbrella of a Superior third power to Check them , the conflicts are bound to arise over differences of Religion, ideology,script etc.Sikhs being welcomed during their Pilgrimage and muslim Punjabi artists being loved by Sikhs is not related to politics or Demographic changes, conflicts arise when one side feel insecure about the dominance of other and is strong enough to resist, which will be the case if borders are removed. So Border is there for a very good reason.


These are my views no offense to anyone.

Thanks for taking the time for the interesting read. Cannot flaw your perceptions. Just would like to add that societies evolve. The social drivers change over period. Even when you correctly state that religious and cultural differences remain as they should because every entity has the right to exist in its own form, the paramount motivations will be commerce. So you will find a Chinese firm fighting with a Chinese firm for a slice of the Indian market. You could draw a parrallel anywhere on that. Hence, what ultimately drives is the primary need of increased prosperity. I am in now way trying to imply that the military strength should not commensurate with the prosperity because that keeps everyone honest.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Bhai, I meet a lot of Pakistanis. Most living in Middle East and also a few in East Asia. Even some from Pakistan too. Business. I even meet a lot of Chinese. They are not like the way we behave on internet. In reality people are different.

About equality, it is always relative and not absolute. There is nothing called absolute equality in behaviourial sciences. It exists only in quantum.

Hence there will be first and second and even last among equals always. But that is immaterial. What matters is that with the increase in prosperity the risk of losing it will get higher. That will natural mellow down the immediate threats that are quite visible now. That will be the general take on this. However, as it is all dynamic, you could very well be correct with your thougths about how things turn out. Can't dispute that bro.

Sir niether im as educated like you nor do i have exposer to the world like you what i say here(about pakistan&pakistanies ) is what i see in everyday life , just some three days ago there was a pakistany guest when he came to know that we are also from lahore he without a hint started with 1984 & finished with toilets & stuff(point is there was so much jealousy & hate about India) and also the real life accounts about owr family back in Lahore & stories of hardship my elders had to face i just cant trust the talks of freindship & trade ...eg BUS Diplomacy & its fallout KARGIL WAR ,so .......

 

[ARYAVEER]

Thanks for taking the time for the interesting read. Cannot flaw your perceptions. Just would like to add that societies evolve. The social drivers change over period. Even when you correctly state that religious and cultural differences remain as they should because every entity has the right to exist in its own form, the paramount motivations will be commerce. So you will find a Chinese firm fighting with a Chinese firm for a slice of the Indian market. You could draw a parrallel anywhere on that. Hence, what ultimately drives is the primary need of increased prosperity. I am in now way trying to imply that the military strength should not commensurate with the prosperity because that keeps everyone honest.

I don't think anyone will have any problem if the benefits are mutual and people do not keep differences in mind all the time when they are dealing with each other in normal life but ,removing borders will not be agreed upon in foreseeable future, And Sikhs themselves will oppose removing the borders and allowing the Pakistani Punjabi Muslims to settle in Punjab.

 

[Guest01]

Sir niether im as educated like you nor do i have exposer to the world like you what i say here(about pakistan&pakistanies ) is what i see in everyday life , just some three days ago there was a pakistany guest when he came to know that we are also from lahore he without a hint started with 1984 & finished with toilets & stuff(point is there was so much jealousy & hate about India) and also the real life accounts about owr family back in Lahore & stories of hardship my elders had to face i just cant trust the talks of freindship & trade ...eg BUS Diplomacy & its fallout KARGIL WAR ,so .......

LoL, you are right. Everybody starts like that. Trust me. When you meet a Pakistani for the first time, they will always talk of these things (I am talking about the average Joe). First comes the dick measuring contest, then come the women, then come the cribbing and then comes the bitching of their own nations and then the realization that by the end there is really not such a big difference.

I can quote something interesting. Of course it is individual and hence can have no bearing on anything that matters. It is just a personal experience and should be taken that way. I met a Pathan in Dubai. We were in a restaurant. We started discussing Biryani. I said that Hyderabadi Biryani is the best. He agreed. Then he realize that I am talking about Indian Hyderabad. So then we discussed biryani flaws for some time. Then he asked me how often do I eat Hyderabadi Biryani. I told him that it is a 2:45 hrs flight from Delhi so really not that often, but I go to Paradise or one of the Hyderabad houses when I can. He was totally surprised to know that the flight from Delhi to Hyderabad is almost the same as the one from Islamabad to Dubai. Then came the discussion about the partition. I mentioned how Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan (Frontier Gandhi) had opposed it. He was immediately proud that he shares the lineage because Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan was also a Pathan. Then he wanted to know more about India. He asked me all kind of questions about north Indians and South Indians and Marathis and all that. He asked me about kind of roads and all that. It was fun later.

Like I said, this is just one odd experience, may be this does not reflect anything. Just an anecdote. But the point I was trying to make was that due to the natural pre-concieved animosity, the initial reactions (initial period is again relative ), could be different and there could be difference between the appetizer and by the time you arrive at the pudding. It could turn out quite sweet actually .

But then things cannot be just generalized on that base. But if you would have read what Nawaz said last month, it was totally different from the standard regular Pakistani discourse about the situation and existence and the origin of the two nations.

Right now the origin is relatively recent in the memory. Over time generations will have other important things to consider. UK and US were enemies someday, remember?

Your family experience needs to be respected. The difficulties that our elders faced in those traumatic times actually should make us more humble and resolute and treasure the result of their hard work = our country. Maybe someday the commercial relationship will vindicate the pain that your elders went through.

 

[Guli Danda]

then why you have highest no. of suicide case?? and i am sure they would not have killed themselves if not born in India

And in Pakistan..they will be blown up by some extremist before they can kill themselves lol