The curious case of Indian Punjabis

[raavan]

Just to keep the focus on the border irrelavance thing, what do you think are the denominators driving the relationship between US/Canada & EU? What are the must have's and the must have nots in the environment to make that kind of union work?

let me give europe as an example since countries there have fought more bloody wars than India and Pakistan have....but after destroying each other twice within the space of 40 years they realized that it was not working for either of them....so they buried their differences and look at france and germany now

 

[KS]

Solve kashmir issue.. and we would have no issue left to demonize eachother?

That's the problem.

Kashmir is no longer a political problem it was in 1947.

Like it or not its a matter of prestige and religion. And I dont know about Pakistan..in India its political suicide of immeasurable stupidity even if any one thinks about doing something on Kashmir that is seen even remotely favorable to Pakistan.

Also we dont lose anything from this 'demonization' and are cool with it.

If you Pakistanis feel so strongly be our guest in resolving the issue.

.but after destroying each other twice within the space of 40 years they realized that it was not working for either of them....so they buried their differences and look at france and germany now

You still dont get it ..do you ?

France and germany it was strictly a political issue..but in India-Pak it is much more than that...it has long become a religious,cultural issue that directly affects one's prestige and I dont see any country backing up from it.

 

[raavan]

Solve kashmir issue.. and we would have no issue left to demonize eachother?

Hmmm, yeah the kashmir issue....for me Kashmir should be given a lot more autonomy in their internal affairs and then pakistan and India can set up a joint mechanism to look over the external ones....we can definitely sort it out diplomatically. if i remember correctly musharraf and manmohan singh were very close to figuring out a solution. hope it happens again

 

[Jackdaws]

let me give europe as an example since countries there have fought more bloody wars than India and Pakistan have....but after destroying each other twice within the space of 40 years they realized that it was not working for either of them....so they buried their differences and look at france and germany now

The jury is still out on whether the EU is a successful model. Greece just held Germany and France hostage. The free movement of peoples within the EU has giving impetus to various right wing groups within the more developed European nations.

Would I like an economic union with the rest of SAARC countries? No. For starters, India has worked very hard over the last few decades to achieve self-sufficiency in all fields. We still have major problems like poverty to solve within our own borders. We can't take failed or failing economies like Pakistan and Bangladesh along for the ride. Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives might be fine - mainly because they have a negligible population compared to India. But two countries - Pakistan and Bangladesh with some 350 million people is a lot.

 

[DarK-LorD]

I don't get this.I am a Bengali from my father's side & my grandfather moved to India from Dhaka during partition.I am not very well versed in Bengali as my Mother is from Delhi but I do have a lot of interest in Bengali culture.I never wondered why we chose to be a part of India,even BD & west Bengal have a lot of cultural similarity & that is more than Punjab & Pakistan,after all BD & India never fought a war with each other & have national anthems composed by the same poet.
I feel that I am in home Mumbai or Delhi more thani n Dhaka.

PS:North & South Korea also have a lot of cultural similarity.

 

[raavan]

That's the problem.

Kashmir is no longer a political problem it was in 1947.

Like it or not its a matter of prestige and religion. And I dont know about Pakistan..in India its political suicide of immeasurable stupidity even if any one thinks about doing something on Kashmir that is seen even remotely favorable to Pakistan.

Also we dont lose anything from this 'demonization' and are cool with it.

If you Pakistanis feel so strongly be our guest in resolving the issue.




You still dont get it ..do you ?

France and germany it was strictly a political issue..but in India-Pak it is much more than that...it has long become a religious,cultural issue that directly affects one's prestige and I dont see any country backing up from it.

dude if it was a religious issue it would have cropped up prior to 47. partition was politically motivated under the garb of religion to fool innocent people on both sides as always

 

[KS]

dude if it was a religious issue it would have cropped up prior to 47. partition was politically motivated under the garb of religion to fool innocent people on both sides as always

Look your problem is your confusing all the issues and dont know what one is talking about.

Now I was talking about present state of Kashmir issue and not partition

 

[Jackdaws]

And for the record, the cultural affinity might be reflected on either side of Punjab in monuments and in dietary habits. Put what about the people? Hate has been indoctrinated in Pakistani Punjab. Is not Ajmal Kasab a Pakistani?

 

[raavan]

Look your problem is your confusing all the issues and dont know what one is talking about.

Now I was talking about present state of Kashmir issue and not partition

apologies , should have read ur post more carefully

 

[Guest01]

let me give europe as an example since countries there have fought more bloody wars than India and Pakistan have....but after destroying each other twice within the space of 40 years they realized that it was not working for either of them....so they buried their differences and look at france and germany now

Excellent analogy. Now to look in to the differences and let us just take up France & Germany:

1. France & Germany (let us just assume as it being irrelevant who was the agressor) fought the wars.
2. Civilian rule prevailed in both the countries and the armies in both nations have been largely subversive on the national stage.
3. The demographics are similar when it comes to religion etc. and hence no major divide. Homogenous that way.
4. General political discourse has been economic development rather than seeking legitimacy to governance via a religious discourse.
5. None of them is a theological state. Both are democratic states.
6. Civilian rule having been strong, there has not been room of the armed forces to drive the national and foreign policy towards confrontation / extremism.

Premised that differences can be buried, how do you think India and Pakistan should start here then? I mean to go down on the path of France and Germany.

 

[raavan]

And for the record, the cultural affinity might be reflected on either side of Punjab in monuments and in dietary habits. Put what about the people? Hate has been indoctrinated in Pakistani Punjab. Is not Ajmal Kasab a Pakistani?

so u will tarnish the entire country due to the actions of one guy. we probably have a lot of ajmal kasabs sitting in india as well in the form of RSS,SIMI etc

 

[KS]

so u will tarnish the entire country due to the actions of one guy. we probably have a lot of ajmal kasabs sitting in india as well in the form of RSS,SIMI etc

RSS does not go about blasting people in Peshawar or Lahore.wrong comparison.

They are one of the most hardworking,patriotic cultural organization in India.

And its not that the one man Kasab was working alone. JuD, LeT,HuJI,JeM and all that alphabet soup of terrorist groups are all based in Punjab.

In your eagerness to portray the Pak punjabis are innocent incarnations of love dont forget the terror havoc they have wreaked on your countrymen.

Read this and understand what your position would have been in that Punjab - Link

 

[Jackdaws]

so u will tarnish the entire country due to the actions of one guy. we probably have a lot of ajmal kasabs sitting in india as well in the form of RSS,SIMI etc

Are you suggesting that the Pakistani state, its machinery, its intelligence - all of which are controlled by Pakistani Punjab had nothing to do with 26/11?

 

[Jackdaws]

All I am saying is that even if I were a Punjabi, I would feel an affinity toward a Major Unnikrishnan - a South Indian soldier rather than Kasab - a Pakistani Punjabi.

 

[raavan]

Are you suggesting that the Pakistani state, its machinery, its intelligence - all of which are controlled by Pakistani Punjab had nothing to do with 26/11?

No , not at all. in all probability it did to some extent. But India probably also does it as well. The point is should innocent citizens on both side be held hostage to what establishment of either countries are doing or have done for the past 60 years. one hand we blame our leaders to be corrupt,criminals etc and on the other we expect them to take decisions keeping ordinary people's best interests at heart....that does not quite connect.... establishments will obviosly take decisions keepin their own short sighted goals (in many cases personal) in mind

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

All I am saying is that even if I were a Punjabi, I would feel an affinity toward a Major Unnikrishnan - a South Indian soldier rather than Kasab - a Pakistani Punjabi.

I would too my friend....but that does not apply to all the pakistani punjabies