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The Concept of Pakistan in the Vedas

Thanks for the tag on this.

It's interesting though that some elements of brahminism did flow with the Aryan invaders from the banks of the Caspian who ultimately settled in the subcontinent. As I understand it, reverence for cows and other animals was possibly a unique Aryan trait. Some - though I would be pushed to locate the references presently - have mentioned that the Aryan invaders were accustomed to the ingestion of cow milk beyond infancy while progenitor ancient Indians ("aasi") may not even have had the physiology to do this. It's plausible that some - if not many - brahminist customs came with the Aryans. Your opinion on this?


As Punjabi Rajput myself (most likely of Saka, Kushan, and Hepthalite origin,) we had been consuming beef for as long as we can remember. Ancient Rajput (Iranic nomad) faith was similar to ancient Babylon and Iranic faiths, where the bull was revered (rather than the cow.) This also explains the predominance of bulls in IVC artifacts.
 
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I have threads on this topic from a Pakistani persepective (without the blatant Islamophobia and lies of the OP).

I request all Pakistanis to look at the OPs in these threads, thanks.



Excerpt from the second link follows:

It may be of interest to mention here that so long as the Aryans stayed in Pakistan, they did not evolve that particular religion called 'Hinduism' with its caste system and other taboos. It was only when they crossed the Sutlej and settled in the Gangetic Valley that this abomninable system was evolved. "While settled in the Punjab the Aryans had not yet become Hindu.... The distinctive Brahmanical System appears to have been evolved after the Sutlej had been passed. To the east of Sutlej the Indo-Aryans were usually safe from foreign invasions and free to work out their own rule of life undisturbed. This also explains the absence of Hindu holy cities and temples in Pakistan." (Oxford history of India, By V.A. Smith, 3rd edition)

"The castes were hardened by the time the Aryans occupied the middle land i.e., the Gangetic Valley and distinguished themselves from their brethern in Sind and the Punjab who were despised by them for not observing the rules of caste .... and for their non-Brahmanical character." (Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakur)

"While the Aryans had by now expanded far into India, their old home in the Punjab, Sind and the north-west was practically forgotten. Later Vedic literature mentions it rarely, and then usually with disparagement and contempt, as an impure land where the Vedic sacrifices are not performed." (The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham)



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This is very informative and compelling. It proves what we have all been saying all along. That although the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis were not Muslims, neither were they hindus or buddhists. Interesting how the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis are described as being Aryan. This also proves that the difference between modern day Pakistanis and indians is not just religious but also racial.
 
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The Northwest has always had a negative connotation in the Vedic tradition. Thus, R. Siddhantashastree (1978: History of the Pre-Kali-Yuga India, Delhi: Inter-India Publications, p.11) writes:

“The valley of the five tributaries of the Indus had always been held as an unholy region because of its occupation by a non-Aryan tribe antagonistic to the civilized Aryans until the time of Sambarana, (...) the king of Hastinapura belonging to the Lunar dynasty. He was the first Aryan to settle in the valley after driving away the aboriginal non-Aryans to a considerable distance.”

What exactly does the 'Vedic tradition' bring to an understanding of this issue? Among whom was the Vedic tradition prevalent? If we are to go by current practice, as defined in the period from 800 AD to the present, the study of the Vedas was restricted to a single small community of endogamous priests, and empowered scholars. We find grisly references to lead being poured into the ears who heard the recital that shouldn't, and poured down the throats of those who recited it that shouldn't. We have a Sankaracharya in modern times, within my own memory, shutting up a woman reciting a passage from one of the Vedas in a welcoming ceremony, on the grounds that these texts were not fit for women to recite.

This was a ghastly coterie of a tiny handful of people - around 2% in southern states, less than 10% in northern states, with a pocket in Jammu, and we are expected to believe that the entire lot of people held some view or the other because it was consistent with 'Vedic tradition', precisely what this collection of bigots kept confined to themselves with jealous zeal?

As I mentioned earlier, one of the hallmarks of the revisionist school of (everything in general, but particularly of) history is their stern disapproval of anything (that means everything) by way of information that is not confined to themselves and their coterie. Unless it is knowledge in Sanskrit, it is not valid; unless it is Sanskrit interpreted by themselves, it is not a valid interpretation. A perfect circular argument.

So we have this mysterious Siddhanta Shastree opining that there was a non-Aryan tribe occupying the valley of the five tributaries of the Indus who were driven away by an obscure king of Hastinapura (Delhi), that king being given the honour of being the 'Aryaniser' of the region.

It is possible that Siddhanta Shastree has adduced a great deal of evidence and a convincing volume of proof about these assertions. This is certainly corroborated by the gradual shift of the centre of gravity of the culture of the migrants from the mountains of the north-west to the Gangetic Valley, by way of Hastinapura and other intermediate locations. We have, however, only Dr. Elst summarising everything into a sentence, and have to be content with that. But then, if we fail to keep the revisionists on our radar screen because they have no publications, no support in academe, no record of painstaking data collection to test a hypothesis and prove or disprove it, then we deserve to die with our own morose thoughts.

To sum up, no historical evidence, merely deconstruction of Vedic text with no links to the ground realities, or even recognition of the ground realities as existing.
 
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This is very informative and compelling. It proves what we have all been saying all along. That although the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis were not Muslims, neither were they hindus or buddhists. Interesting how the ancestors of modern day Pakistanis are described as being Aryan. This also proves that the difference between modern day Pakistanis and indians is not just religious but also racial.


The revisionists are the ones who deny Pakistanis their heritage on the basis of our Islamic faith. They claim Sindh even in their national anthem.

Nothing in the universe will move IVC from Pakistan to India, no matter how hard they try.
 
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As Punjabi Rajput myself (most likely of Saka, Kushan, and Hepthalite origin,) we had been consuming beef for as long as we can remember. Ancient Rajput (Iranic nomad) faith was similar to ancient Babylon and Iranic faiths, where the bull was revered (rather than the cow.) This also explains the predominance of bulls in IVC artifacts.
Read through your link. Excellent work. Important to refresh this periodically for the benefit of Pakistanis newer to the site.

I thoroughly recommend pdf members have a read of the aforementioned links.
 
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Read through your link. Excellent work. Important to refresh this periodically for the benefit of Pakistanis newer to the site.

I thoroughly recommend pdf members have a read of the aforementioned links.


I am planning many more in the near future in sha Allah. I will keep you in mind brother. As @PAKISTANFOREVER stated, our differences are not just religious but racial as well.

For example, why did Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan embrace Islam, while modern Indians' ancestors did not?

We had more connections with Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and were part of the known world. We were the last civilization of Middle East/Near East, and its Eastern-most part.

At that time, everything East of us was vague and unknown to the centers of human civilization in the Near East.

That and many other points are discussed in the links I shared.
 
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The latter sentence suggests a concession to the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) by positing an antagonism between “Aryans” and “aboriginals”, contrary to the Puranic narrative revaluated by the same author, which has the Aryans come from inner India to this peripheral zone and then to Central Asia. This simply exemplifies the confusion regarding Aryan origins.

Ah, face to face with the central contradiction0.

They cannot make up their minds: on the one hand, it is so tempting to postulate a foreign origin - nothing like a foreign origin to bring out the worst racism in South Asians.

We are up against big game, however, and do well to stick to that.

The core element of the OOI - the Out Of India theory, the opposing theory built up to demolish the British-European-Communist-Nehruvian-Congress (the reader may supply his own additional elements to the line-up here) - is that everything, language, cosmogony, culture, food, the horse, the chariot, everything, originated 'somewhere' in India (they have not been able to make up their minds on the location, for fear of an outbreak of civil war among the revisionists).

Briefly, if the Aryans were different from the aboriginals, who were the Aryans? The AIT can explain this, the OOI cannot. Therefore, this contradiction is brushed aside with supreme disdain; the good professor taking great care to draw our attention to his inattention; it is so unimportant that even to draw the attention of all (and sundry) to its dismissal does not raise it to sufficient stature to be a problem.

Well played, Sir.

It is so sad that you had to admit that there is confusion regarding Aryan origins.

It is sad also that he refuses to come to terms with the misuse of the word Aryan, and uses it to mean race, rather than referring to a family of languages.
 
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Then again, perhaps it is the reader who is misled by this received wisdom while the author has a different scenario in mind: the Aryans as natives of a part of India, who came as conquerors to subdue the natives of other parts of India, notably the Northwest.

Here we square the circle.
 
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Ofcourse only Indians are able to discuss Pakistani origins, that topic is off topic for Pakistanis, even on PDF.

We already know this egotistical, self-aggrandizing mindset of the secular Indians.

Look also at the intellectual dishonesty at display here, comparing racism and religious hate of present India, on full display in the form of Hindu extremist lynch mobs, to our acceptance of the different racial composition of Pakistan and India (which is fact that no one can deny.)

We never said here anyone is superior or inferior, merely that other civilizations should refrain from theft of our culture and heritage, which is the sole inheritance of the Pakistani nation and people.

This is why Pakistan was made, read below Ch. Rehmat Ali in his pamphlet from 1933 where he pushed for Pakistan.

"...we make bold to assert without the least fear of contradiction that we, Muslims of PAKSTAN, do possess a separate and distinct nationality from the rest of India, where the Hindu nation lives and has every right to live. We, therefore, deserve and must demand the recognition of a separate national status by the grant of a separate Federal Constitution from the rest of India...

...we propose that these Provinces should have a separate Federation of their own. There can be no peace and tranquility in the land if we, the Muslims, are duped into a Hindu-dominated Federation where we cannot be the masters of our own destiny and captains of our own souls."
 
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The revisionists are the ones who deny Pakistanis their heritage on the basis of our Islamic faith. They claim Sindh even in their national anthem.

Nothing in the universe will move IVC from Pakistan to India, no matter how hard they try.






EXACTLY!

Yet those who are insinuating that Pakistanis and indians are racially the same, have 0 evidence or facts to back up their claims.............:lol:
 
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I am planning many more in the near future in sha Allah. I will keep you in mind brother. As @PAKISTANFOREVER stated, our differences are not just religious but racial as well.

For example, why did Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan embrace Islam, while modern Indians' ancestors did not?

We had more connections with Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and were part of the known world. We were the last civilization of Middle East/Near East, and its Eastern-most part.

At that time, everything East of us was vague and unknown to the centers of human civilization in the Near East.

That and many other points are discussed in the links I shared.
I agree with most of your points. With the racial part though, I agree only to an extent. Counter mixing occurred in later history even according to genetic studies. The truth - as ever - probably lies in a more greyed area than is immediately obvious. Clearly, the overall sociopolitical construction of Indus nations is distinct from that of gangetic nations for a number of reasons. From a purely genetic point of view though, westward "mixing" did occur as well as eastward. The original progenitor races though are precisely as you have described - Aryans came from the west and into both territories, which at that point in history were not significantly mixing with one another and were quite distinct. Indeed, the 3 nations (Aryans, IVC and gangetics) appear to be quite distinct from one another originally - the mixing that occurred later is difficult to accurately delineate.
 
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Ofcourse only Indians are able to discuss Pakistani origins, that topic is off topic for Pakistanis, even on PDF.

We already know this egotistical, self-aggrandizing mindset of the secular Indians.

Look also at the intellectual dishonesty at display here, comparing racism and religious hate of present India, on full display in the form of Hindu extremist lynch mobs, to our acceptance of the different racial composition of Pakistan and India (which is fact that no one can deny.)

We never said here anyone is superior or inferior, merely that other civilizations should refrain from theft of our culture and heritage, which is the sole inheritance of the Pakistani nation and people.

This is why Pakistan was made, read below Ch. Rehmat Ali in his pamphlet from 1933 where he pushed for Pakistan.

"...we make bold to assert without the least fear of contradiction that we, Muslims of PAKSTAN, do possess a separate and distinct nationality from the rest of India, where the Hindu nation lives and has every right to live. We, therefore, deserve and must demand the recognition of a separate national status by the grant of a separate Federal Constitution from the rest of India...

...we propose that these Provinces should have a separate Federation of their own. There can be no peace and tranquility in the land if we, the Muslims, are duped into a Hindu-dominated Federation where we cannot be the masters of our own destiny and captains of our own souls."








With 0 evidence or facts, indians know more about the racial and genetic heritage of Pakistani people. Even more so than the Pakistanis themselves.........:disagree:
............trying the age old dead theory that Pakistanis and indians are "racially the same"..............:disagree:
 
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only Indians are able to discuss Pakistani origins, that topic is off topic for Pakistanis, even on PDF.

We already know this egotistical, self-aggrandizing mindset of the secular Indians.
Sir, well put. We all note the background chatter with a fleeting interest. Mercifully, the interest remains nothing more than that.

The main word here is "obfuscation", closely followed by another word "misdirection".

Once pdf members understand when and why these particular twin harbingers of intellectual decay are brought to bear by the usual "flat earth" crowd, it becomes straightforward to relegate such distractions to the realm of mere aesthetics.
 
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I agree with most of your points. With the racial part though, I agree only to an extent. Counter mixing occurred in later history even according to genetic studies. The truth - as ever - probably lies in a more greyed area than is immediately obvious. Clearly, the overall sociopolitical construction of Indus nations is distinct from that of gangetic nations for a number of reasons. From a purely genetic point of view though, westward "mixing" did occur as well as eastward. The original progenitor races though are precisely as you have described - Aryans came from the west and into both territories, which at that point in history were not significantly mixing with one another and were quite distinct. Indeed, the 3 nations (Aryans, IVC and gangetics) appear to be quite distinct from one another originally - the mixing that occurred later is difficult to accurately delineate.


There are exceptions ofcourse, but what I mean to say here is that populations of Afghanistan, for example, share more closer racial and cultural similarities with Pakistan than do Indians.

However, no doubt there are some racial similarities with East Punjab, Rajastan, and Western Gujurat.

Yet I still posit that Afghan Pukhtoons are closer to the general Pakistani population than any of those Indian groups, for example.
 
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