The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[Armstrong]

Been busy with work lately, that's why haven't been too regular.

The Son in this convo is Pakistan's evolving nuclear and conventional engagement doctrines, as influenced by the CSD.

Does any part of that doctrine involve 'us - the civilians' in a quasi-people's war if, as you pointed out that, the RCC is breached the city centers would have to be taken ?

I might not be able to fire a gun* but I could be quite handy as a grunt for manual labor (My Dad did that in '71 as a teenager whose Dad had just retired from the Army as a Civilian Structural Engineer) !

*Last time I fired my Dad's baretta (can't even pronounce it) - The tree trunk that I was aiming for didn't get a scratch but my Mom's petunias nearly a foot to its right were blown to bits !

 

[Armstrong]

@Xeric Chief if you, say i can move it to senior's cafe, so the trash could be kept at bay?

Please do that

No...whats the fault of us mere mortals who gave up the TT or Jr.TT rank to be left out ?

 

[Icarus]

Does any part of that doctrine involve 'us - the civilians' in a quasi-people's war if, as you pointed out that, the RCC is breached the city centers would have to be taken ?

I might not be able to fire a gun* but I could be quite handy as a grunt for manual labor (My Dad did that in '71 as a teenager whose Dad had just retired from the Army as a Civilian Structural Engineer) !

*Last time I fired my Dad's baretta (can't even pronounce it) - The tree trunk that I was aiming for didn't get a scratch but my Mom's petunias nearly a foot to its right were blown to bits !

I don't expect to see any of that, no militias or bonded labour. However, for that to even come close to happening, the population centres are to fall first. I doubt the PA would let the important cities of the RCC fall to Indian hands.

 

[Kompromat]

@Armstrong

Blame some folks who ruin threads. It had to be moved.

 

[Armstrong]

I don't expect to see any of that, no militias or bonded labour. However, for that to even come close to happening, the population centres are to fall first. I doubt the PA would let the important cities of the RCC fall to Indian hands.

Mate, bonded labor - I was hoping to volunteer !

Dude, tell me something, if you will, is our traditionally dubbed 'offensive-defense' doctrine still with an element of 'offense' to it because all I've been hearing of late are the tactical nukes to dissuade advancing Indian Columns, the LOC & most of Northern Punjab along the IB a quagmire of ATGMs & other Anti-Tank methods & that most of our tank-battles would be in Southern-Punjab & Upper Sindh to keep the Indians out - Do we actually plan on taking the fight to them or are we just going to sit back & soak up the pressure & deny them Pakistani territory ?

I hope that @Xeric & @notorious_eagle as well @Aeronaut can comment on this too !

 

[MilSpec]

Would anyone want to take a shot at what an IBG would comprise of in the thar desert.?

 

[MilSpec]

@Xeric can y tell us more about the new doctrine, or point towards some reading material.

 

[Mitro]

Again my country men are brain Farting for surgical nuclear strike to take place its mandatory for IA to take control of big part of Pakistan and Destroy PA. it never happen in 65 years and it will never happen in the future .

even though we are buying big aircraft to deploy our strike battalion in western border with in 12-24 hour notice it won't give any advantage to us because PA can deploy faster then us because of their bases very close to border.

conventional speaking both the army are well balance and PA is very professional army.on other hand IA lose 1000 soldier in 2001-2002 stand off just for troops mobilization

in small budget PA has manage to match us with weapon system because of china factor and indigenous production.

And if IA wins Lottery and did capture pakistan territory and PA decide to use Nasr to destroy Tank regiment they will make sure the we are not able to respond by striking major city and destroy command and control system from their first strike policy.

 

[Kompromat]

Would anyone want to take a shot at what an IBG would comprise of in the thar desert.?

Are you talking about just equipment or formations too?

 

[Slayer786]

Cold start and Son of cold start represent a mind set in India --- it is in India that this policy needs to to be openly discussed and debated -- I have faith that the good sense and self respect of educated and concerned Indians will see to it that this policy is arrested (and I in the meantime would welcome an ideological return to "Pakistani" value system, greater training, lethality and firepower in the Pakistan )

LOL. It is these so-called educated Indians who are making these kind of 'Cold0Start Doctrine' strategies. Ordinary indians dont give a cahoot about attacking Pakistan. They are struggling against inflation to make ends meet, just like ordinary pakistanis.
These so-called educated Indians are the ones creating the problems. We dont want to lay hope that these guys will stop anything.

Just pray that the majority of Indians are not believers of these so-called educated guys. And prefer peace. Although I doubt it.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

@Icarus @Argus Panoptes

I see,what you have wrote about no further investment in the proxy market. I do see,what you have said about looking 'inwards'.

However, how can we successfuly defeat internal threats without destroying their support from our friends in the east?

If we can't then how can we remain unengaged beyond our borders and defeat the internal threats at the same time?

@Aeronaut I hope somebody approves this post to keep my participation in this discussion possible now that it is in the Senior's Cafe.


If I understand you correctly, you seem to be advocating a variation of offense being the best defense, thus trying to keep India mired in its own internal war as a means of keeping their involvement in out internal fighting to a minimum. The biggest variable that makes that contention impossible for us is great and rising disparity in the economy, the strength of institutions, and internal security situation between us and them.

We are in grave danger due to a mess of our own making, and in this situation, it would be wise to conserve whatever strength we have left to shore up our own crumbling foundations first and foremost, rather than spend them trying to breach the outer fortress walls of the opposing side.

The best thing we have going for us is our powerful nuclear deterrent. Where our failure lies is in us being unable to use that effective deterrent to generate an economic dividend by allowing us to divert our scarce resources towards social development. The rest can follow.

 

[DARKY]

Destroying the military equipment is a part of the fight but the real gain lies in stopping the mobilization of Pakistani troops by intersecting the major roads and driving wedges. If you meant that in the long term, please clarify and I will answer accordingly.

Not a Part... but main objective... blocking the mobilization would be a part of the process so that own casualties are reduced to minimum.

Long terms means 10-15 years and so on... The Military and Economy goes together here... It is a little similar to what US did with cold war on Soviet Union.... keep the pressure on military so that other issues are subsided.

 

[GURU DUTT]

well gone thru most of the thread

what i got was that pakistanies are terrified with so called CSD or Son of CSD which is nothing

well there is no such thing as many in pakistan want to beleve just like they were fed with the fear of India taking over pakistan the thing is no we dont want pakistan

secdondli we dont have to Fire any thing when your own over zelous defence annlysts are doing owr job = to strike fear in hearts of the enemy do we need to do any thing we just keep mordanising owr forces and in order to get on par pakistani establishment will drain pakistani resources to the level of bankruptcy

and secondli IA or MOD is not a fool to attack pakistan as it serves no purpose of owrs we dont need to hope you got the point

 

[Contrarian]

You have hit the nail there

The entire premise behind CSD is to beat Pakistan to the border and mobilize faster. A very noble goal indeed, but in the foreseeable future for at-least 10 years, IA is nowhere close to matching PA's mobility. There are still many gaps in the CSD, although it has been thoroughly studied by IA on paper it has not been implemented on the field. IA is still training to fight on Corps Level, you train as you fight and fight as you train.

No its not.
CSD is not about mobilizing faster than PA.
I doubt what kind of literature you have read on it, but if indeed that is so, it is a very flawed understanding.

CSD is about mobilizing in such a period - that

1. The Indian political class does not back away from the fight. Indian leaders start talking peace after a little while. This is meant to preempt that. When the leaders give the order to the Army to march to the border, it should not take 2 months during which things cool down, it should take as little time that the leaders have no option BUT to then allow the Army to cross over the border.

It tries to make it a fate accompli to attack Pakistan on the political class on India which uses large mobilization time as an excuse to let the zeal for war die down.

2. It tries to mobilize before the International opinion can force India to back down.
While for you international opinion means just washington or beijing, but for India it means a whole range of countries and a whole range of business leaders who have set up shop in India and dont wish their investments to come under threat.


It is in NO way even related to mobilizing faster than PA.

If that is what you have been basing your views on CSD then it is time to re evaluate.

 

[Contrarian]

Please make sense, if you start out making outrageous claims as you have, it does not leave much to discuss - after all, you make it appear as if the IA and Indian society are not connected.


What is this mindset we speak of? Please refer to the lead article in the thread

That is 100% correct.
Indian society and Indian Army are NOT connected.
It might be hard for you to understand the dynamics coming from the cultural background and using Pakistani cultural lenses.

Indian Army has zero say in how the Government functions, it works or its policies.
The Army can give its views, but the Army has to march off a cliff if the Prime Minister wants them to.

And the People of India do not interfere as to how IA fights its wars.