The Cold Start Doctrine Watch.

[Kompromat]

@muse

I know its not related to CSD very much but according to stats, Pakistani civilians own 72 firearms for EVERY Indian soldier in the Indian Army and BSF.

Something like 85 Million firearms. Army will not have much problem with the reinforcements.

With Bhartiz invading Pakistan, it will unite the country. It will be 1965 all over again,instead this time we will be armed with firearms not gandasas and axes.Indians will be turned into a bloody turkeyshoot.

@muse

I didn't mean that China will pose a threat to India if the impliment CSD. Or maybe they will, as they issued ultimatum to India in 1965..it depends on how much strategic interests they have in Pakistan at that time...so we don't know for sure.

Past record tells us that they will exert pressure in India at least.

 

[third eye]

The Chinese eh? -- Ok if you say so, but privately, I'm not buying it - and we don't need that ---- Look, cold star or son of cold start (proactive defense) is inherently aggressive and reckless to the point that it has raised eyebrows internationally, Pakistan is getting it's lunch handed to it by the Talib and Wahabi terroists but that does not make it Balestine or lebanon.

Cold start and Son of cold start represent a mind set in India --- it is in India that this policy needs to to be openly discussed and debated -- I have faith that the good sense and self respect of educated and concerned Indians will see to it that this policy is arrested (and I in the meantime would welcome an ideological return to "Pakistani" value system, greater training, lethality and firepower in the Pakistan )

Two things have stood out since 1947 .

The IA does not interfere as to how the nation is run.

The People of India do not interfere as to how the IA fights its wars.

What mind set are you referring to in India that the Cold Srart policy represents ?

 

[muse]

Two things have stood out since 1947 .

The IA does not interfere as to how the nation is run.

The People of India do not interfere as to how the IA fights its wars.

What mind set are you referring to in India that the Cold Srart policy represents ?

Please make sense, if you start out making outrageous claims as you have, it does not leave much to discuss - after all, you make it appear as if the IA and Indian society are not connected.


What is this mindset we speak of? Please refer to the lead article in the thread

 

[Mech]

Please make sense, if you start out making outrageous claims as you have, it does not leave much to discuss - after all, you make it appear as if the IA and Indian society are not connected.

It isn't. Not even close.

 

[third eye]

Please make sense, if you start out making outrageous claims as you have, it does not leave much to discuss - after all, you make it appear as if the IA and Indian society are not connected.


What is this mindset we speak of? Please refer to the lead article in the thread

The fact is that in India the polices & war plans of the IA are not discussed on open forums. This is mainly because the average man couldn't care less how the IA does what its meant to do.

The track record of the IA has been such that it has not been a cause for concern either , this makes the man on the street even more sanguine of the IA.

 

[Kompromat]

@notorious_eagle

Lets not underestimate the enemy and lets not ignore what @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=1640" target="_blank">muse</a></u> have said regarding the mindset about the CSD in the Indian establishment.

Just an example if not a proof.

With this level of hatred for our nation and the history in the background related to E.Pakistan, we will be doomed if we made such a huge mistake to underestimate their desire to dominate us. Indian subversion is known and must not be underestimated.


Underestimating is one thing, overestimating is another. As we speak only 20% Indian tanks are NVG capable as compared to Pakistan's 80%....it means that if they fight today, Pakistani armor is going to dominate.

Earlier when his attention was brought to the fact that the Indian Army's tanks have a night vision capability of 20 percent, Pakistan's have 80 percent while China has 100 percent, the general only replied: "You are right

..:: India Strategic ::.. Army: 'Night blindness' worries Indian Army

India has serious draw backs, not just the lack of NVG capability but also its main warhorses ie 2500 or so T-72Ajeyas and 900 or so T-90s have pathetic protection. T-90 is based on the T-72 Chassis..


Pakistan has a huge stockpile of ATGMs and growing. It includes TOW series and Baktar Shikan series which itself is based on TOW.


TOW VS T-72 Fired from 4Kms away.

If you are the poor guy in that night blind Indian T-72, you are dead....no cremation needed either.

Indias 2300 or so BMP series [Back Bone of the Indian Armored carriers] too vehicles have pathetic protection from ATGM strikes.

BMP VS RPG-29.

BMP after the paint is taken off.

It wont be a walk in the park..as muse said that Pakistan maybe weak but even now isn't Palestine or Lebanon..coming back to what he said about thinking Indian taking a note of their planner's wild and counterproductive ambitions.

 

[third eye]

[MENTION=1640]

If 50% of the Indian IBG capability is neutralized, the rest wont achieve its objectives, and unless Bharat wishes to start a full scale war, it would have to witdraw.

Best Regards.

What are we discussing ?

Is it being suggested that any nation in the world can send its armored columns across an IB into another country without an all out war being declared ?

 

[Kompromat]

What are we discussing ?

Is it being suggested that any nation in the world can send its armored columns across an IB into another country without an all out war being declared ?

It sounds absurd don't it?----However it does make sense to your Generals, i wonder why?

 

[third eye]

It sounds absurd don't it?----However it does make sense to your Generals, i wonder why?

Can we have a link that says so ?

 

[muse]

Can we have a link that says so ?

Refer to the lead article in the thread - for further elaboration, look up "Cold Start" and "Proactive defense"

 

[Kompromat]

Can we have a link that says so ?

Are you out of touch?

CSD is what you wrote above, your generals in a belief that they can launch a Blitzkrieg into Pakistan without going all out war which will turn nuclear. What else do you think, they have in mind for this ludicrous idea of so called "limited,conventional war" ?
The men you should be questioning is your generals. They may decide how it starts but the ones deciding how it ends will be us.

Your Generals need to know this.

""No plan survives contact with the enemy: Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke the Elder"

 

[Markus]

Are you out of touch?

CSD is what you wrote above, your generals in a belief that they can launch a Blitzkrieg into Pakistan without going all out war which will turn nuclear. What else do you think, they have in mind for this ludicrous idea of so called "limited,conventional war" ?
The men you should be questioning is your generals. They may decide how it starts but the ones deciding how it ends will be us.

Your Generals need to know this.

""No plan survives contact with the enemy: Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke the Elder"

The bold above.

That is a big misconception. CDS is not meant to execute a limited war.

The purpose of CSD is to capture small but strategic enemy areas (which can be used as bargaining tools later) until our strike corp machines get in place.

CSD will be execute at 72 hours notice while our main strike corps will obviously take much longer to fall in place.

CSD is designed not only to penetrate your defence but also blunt your forward offence forces.

How successful CSD will be in real war? - Only time will tell.

 

[Kompromat]

The bold above.

That is a big misconception. CDS is not meant to execute a limited war.

The purpose of CSD is to capture small but strategic enemy areas (which can be used as bargaining tools later) until our strike corp machines get in place.

CSD will be execute at 72 hours notice while our main strike corps will obviously take much longer to fall in place.

CSD is designed not only to penetrate your defence but also blunt your forward offence forces.

How successful CSD will be in real war? - Only time will tell.

Please provide a source for this. I have read more material on CSD than you will ever do and i have never come across a backup full scale war plan. Full scale war will turn nuclear, resulting in an unwanted mutual suicide.

 

[third eye]

Are you out of touch?

CSD is what you wrote above, your generals in a belief that they can launch a Blitzkrieg into Pakistan without going all out war which will turn nuclear. What else do you think, they have in mind for this ludicrous idea of so called "limited,conventional war" ?
The men you should be questioning is your generals. They may decide how it starts but the ones deciding how it ends will be us.

Your Generals need to know this.

""No plan survives contact with the enemy: Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke the Elder"

Your reply above highlights the point I want to make.

Everything is based on presupposition. I do not intend to discuss tactics & strategy on the net & least of all here.

I however has go my answer.

 

[Markus]

Please provide a source for this. I have read more material on CSD than you will ever do and i have never come across a backup full scale war plan. Full scale war will turn nuclear, resulting in an unwanted mutual suicide.

Will search and provide you, may take some time.