The case against Hafiz Saeed

[lamayuru]

Hey did you register with multipal IDs?


Lamayurugoaway and lamayuru ???

Why i am feeling you are the same person.

no `

 

[DaRk WaVe]

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

@emo_girl
"Enormous reliance is placed on the interrogation of the captured terrorist, Mohammed Amir Kasab, despite the fact that there is an abundance of other evidence – eyewitness accounts, CCTV and TV footage, forensic evidence, etc. – which could have been called upon to establish when, where, and what exactly happened during the attacks. This gives rise to the suspicion that the interrogation is being used as a substitute for real investigation because it can be influenced by intimidation or torture, whereas other sources of evidence cannot be influenced in the same way."

Your Govt did admit Kasav is Pakistani. When you are not willing to believe your own national (under duress or whatever), why would your interrogators believe Indian eye witnesses as saying gospel truth? CCTV and TV footage only confirms his face and that he was totting a gun. I am sure your Govt has a copy of all the footage there is. Forensic evidence was provided after some dilly dallying I guess (DNA etc. which Pakistan asked for). Added to that somebody from the FBI has also testified before your courts in Pakistan. Analyse the counter theory, have all these Pakistani used products flown all the way over the ocean and landed in a boat moored off Mumbai? Which side of the coin is the more bizzare? Fact is Pakistanis are involved and innocents got killed, in the city of Mumbai. Where do you see the loop hole in identifying the culprits? You already have some arrests so there is no use disputing the veracity of this linkage. The ONLY bone of contention really is Hafiz Saeed, not the rest, since he is root of the LeT/JuD front.

Also the article you post is Jan 2009 a lot more has been thrown up by investigation since then. A lot more dossiers have been exchanged. All the doubts raised in the contents of the first dossier (the so called 30+2 qs. were responded to subsequently in yet another dossier). If the chronology had not been well established what is the grounds for Zaki ur and co being behind bars? Why are you still selectively rejecting the evidence vis-a-vis some individuals?

hmmm, i repeat there is still not enough evidence to convict any one,
on basis of a few a cosmetics u want us to hang some one, if India is interested it ahs to provide more proofs, thats it...
recently ur PM statement about "terrorists palnning another attack'" is an example of hoe irresponsible ur officials, they are good at blaming Pakistan for everything n anything.... ur PM's duality regarding Pakistan is very much clear from Sharm Al sheikh statment & recent 'statement game' been played by almost all India's high ranking officials including ur COAS...

 

[DaRk WaVe]

btw have u read tht BBC article about Wiki...
Wikipedia tightens online rules


Last Updated: Tuesday, 6 December 2005, 11:47 GMT
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Wikipedia tightens online rules
Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales
Wikipedia founder hopes to improve the quality of entries
Online encyclopaedia Wikipedia has tightened its submission rules following a complaint.

Prominent journalist John Seigenthaler described as "false and malicious" an entry on Wikipedia implicating him in the Kennedy assassinations.

When he phoned Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia's founder, he was told there was no way of finding out who wrote the entry.

Wikipedia has since removed the entry and now requires users to register before they can create articles.

But visitors to the site will still be able to edit content already posted without having to register.

The case has highlighted once again the problem of publishing information online.

'Impulse vandalism'

Unlike content published in magazines, books or newspapers, online information can be posted anonymously by anyone.


The marketplace of ideas ultimately will take care of the problem but in the meantime, what happens to people like me?
John Seigenthaler
Wikipedia has thrived on offering people the chance to contribute to a collective knowledge bank.

Since its launch in 2001, Wikipedia has gathered together some 850,000 articles in English as well as entries in many other languages on a wide range of topics.

Based on wikis, open-source software which lets anyone fiddle with a webpage, anyone reading a subject entry can disagree, edit, add, delete, or replace the entry.

It relies on volunteers, many of whom are experts in a particular field, to edit previously submitted articles.

Mr Wales acknowledged that the new procedures would not prevent people from posting false information but said he hoped it would limit the number of new articles being created.

This, in turn, should make it easier for the thousands of volunteers to edit content, he said.

"In many cases the types of things we see going on are impulse vandalism," he said.

In an opinion piece for the USA Today, where Mr Seigenthaler was the founding editorial director, the 78-year-old journalist claimed that only one sentence in his Wikipedia biography was correct - the fact that he was Robert Kennedy's administrative assistant in the early 1960s.

He went on to describe Wikipedia as a "flawed and irresponsible research tool".

"The marketplace of ideas ultimately will take care of the problem but in the meantime, what happens to people like me?" he asked.

 

[Spring Onion]

Who believes in Wiki other than Indians.

 

[lamayuru]

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 PM ----------

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hmmm, i repeat there is still not enough evidence to convict any one,
on basis of a few a cosmetics u want us to hang some one, if India is interested it ahs to provide more proofs, thats it...
recently ur PM statement about "terrorists palnning another attack'" is an example of hoe irresponsible ur officials, they are good at blaming Pakistan for everything n anything.... ur PM's duality regarding Pakistan is very much clear from Sharm Al sheikh statment & recent 'statement game' been played by almost all India's high ranking officials including ur COAS...

OK if you want more evidence what could it be? Can you tell me wht tangible form that may take? The voyagers came to Mumbai shores carrying bare minimals. 9 are dead. Most of the conspirators/handlers are alive in Pakistan. If you confront them with evidence you can get a statement. That is the way law works.
If you have been able to arrest Zaki by tracing the international calls made by the handler, similarly if you go to this *** mountain address that is mentioned in the dossier where he met the team, you will find people that can say they saw this gentleman Hafiz indoctrinating some youth. You have to admit it is a bizarre case and can be logically concluded only when Pakistan acts with a pure heart & righteousness of purpose. I dont know if that is too much to ask.

 

[lamayuru]

@emo_girl
I will go with you on the wiki if you want. And refrain from posting any more stuff from there. But if you are really looking for information wiki has something called citations, these are the more credible sources from where contributers back their inputs. So if you think anything is disputed, look at the citation and dispute that if you can.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

OK if you want more evidence what could it be? Can you tell me wht tangible form that may take? The voyagers came to Mumbai shores carrying bare minimals. 9 are dead. Most of the conspirators/handlers are alive in Pakistan. If you confront them with evidence you can get a statement. That is the way law works.
If you have been able to arrest Zaki by tracing the international calls made by the handler, similarly if you go to this *** mountain address that is mentioned in the dossier where he met the team, you will find people that can say they saw this gentleman Hafiz indoctrinating some youth. You have to admit it is a bizarre case and can be logically concluded only when Pakistan acts with a pure heart & righteousness of purpose. I dont know if that is too much to ask.

yeah they came on shore & dodged one of the most advanced blue water navy(so called) and that on a rubber boat from Karachi to mumbai, 3 days floating in water n still coastal guards were blind
highlighted part is a bit funny i must say...
We are acting with 'pure heart' recent claims by ur PM about 'plans of another terrorist attack' and response by our FM is enuf proof of it but the response of Indian minister to our FM's statement is enuf proof of 'duality' which exists in Indian leadership... i m going to sleep now, will reply to u later...

 

[lamayuru]

@emo_girl, Jana:
Specifically, I have seeked out the citation absolving Lt Col S P Purohit in Samjhauta Express blasts:

TG-192: Treasury Targets Al Qaida and Lashkar-E Tayyiba Networks in Pakistan

This is the US Dept of Treasury website and goes on to say:

Arif Qasmani is the chief coordinator for Lashkar-e Tayyiba's (LET) dealings with outside organizations and has provided significant support for LET terrorist operations. Qasmani has worked with LET to facilitate terrorist attacks, including the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India, and the February 2007 Samjota Express bombing in Panipat, India. Qasmani conducted fundraising activities on behalf of LET in 2005 and utilized money that he received from Dawood Ibrahim, an Indian crime figure and terrorist supporter, to facilitate the July 2006 train bombing in Mumbai, India.

 

[lamayuru]

"
yeah they came on shore & dodged one of the most advanced blue water navy(so called) and that on a rubber boat from Karachi to mumbai, 3 days floating in water n still coastal guards were blind
"
sad but true. The whole episode is a complete laughter riot, had so many lives not been lost

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You can't "BAHHH what ever!!!" that! That is what your Govt has been doing for too long now.

If you look at the link it includes a video, PC has said that the dossiers handed over to Pakistan have details of meetings Saeed had with 'the boys'. Exact locations, dates. times and who his company was, even what transpired. He has also said that if any prosecutor is serious he will go to these places and uncover more evidence. For obvious reasons that investigation has to be done by elements of the Pakistani law enforcement. India has to respect Pakistan's soveriegnty!

Please, surely you see how none of the above is enough to implicate Saeed in a court of law.

You cannot tie in 'Exact locations, dates. times and who his company was, even what transpired" unless you can corroborate through multiple sources that all of the above occurred and the focus of all of the above was the Mumbai attacks.

The masterminds, Lakhvi and Shah, are under arrest - now if the Indian allegations are true, then they might spill the beans and implicate Saeed, or they might not (Depnding on how tough and loyal they are).

On the other hand, the Indian allegations might be untrue, in which case there is nothing to corroborate from other sources and Lakhvi and Saeed don't have anything to say to implicate Saeed.

And who is to say that Pakistan has not visited those places, but what exactly are we supposed to find in terms of incriminating evidence? Are the walls and ground going to talk and tell us that Saeed was here and discussed XYZ issue? Even if we find forensic evidence placing Saeed at that location, that is not enough to also prove that he was there discussing/plotting XYZ.

You need to move beyond the headlines and realize how difficult proving Saeed's involvement in Mumabi is, given that it is alleged to be completely indirect even by the Indians.

India is not asking (atleast not vociferously) for Saeed to be extradited, I hope you know that PM MMS has said that India will come more than half way, if Pakistan only does follow through on the logical legal procedure & tries alleged criminals under it's OWN laws.

To that end we are prosecuting the alleged masterminds in a total of seven suspects I believe - it is only with Saeed that there appears to be a paucity of evidence related to Indian allegations.

 

[lamayuru]

@AM:
"
Please, surely you see how none of the above is enough to implicate Saeed in a court of law.

You cannot tie in 'Exact locations, dates. times and who his company was, even what transpired" unless you can corroborate through multiple sources that all of the above occurred and the focus of all of the above was the Mumbai attacks.

The masterminds, Lakhvi and Shah, are under arrest - now if the Indian allegations are true, then they might spill the beans and implicate Saeed, or they might not (Depnding on how tough and loyal they are).

On the other hand, the Indian allegations might be untrue, in which case there is nothing to corroborate from other sources and Lakhvi and Saeed don't have anything to say to implicate Saeed.

And who is to say that Pakistan has not visited those places, but what exactly are we supposed to find in terms of incriminating evidence? Are the walls and ground going to talk and tell us that Saeed was here and discussed XYZ issue? Even if we find forensic evidence placing Saeed at that location, that is not enough to also prove that he was there discussing/plotting XYZ.

You need to move beyond the headlines and realize how difficult proving Saeed's involvement in Mumabi is, given that it is alleged to be completely indirect even by the Indians.
"

You are right on that. But you have to be sensitized to the fact that he is the master. The ring man. If you let him go and clip his wings only for now, he is going to carry out Mumbai-II. Just as worse was to follow from terrorists released from Kandahar (9/11, Daniel Pearl etc.). India wants to close the tap for good rather than just stem the flow. If LeT shuts down as an organisation, it will make it that much more difficult for JuM and HM to plan strikes on India.

Saeed's punishment will be a serious reverse to the jihadi way of meting out justice via fidayeen proxy.

 

[lamayuru]

@AM:
"
The masterminds, Lakhvi and Shah, are under arrest - now if the Indian allegations are true, then they might spill the beans and implicate Saeed
"
Why do you think Pakistan is carrying out an in camera trial and hidng facts even from Pakistani public? Is it to prevent the entire jehadi nurseries falling flat under the world's eye? Specifically to shield state elements who have been involved in all sorts of activities for their motherland? Now there was a Major General Saab mentioned in the Indian dossier somewhere.

Also if the Indian Home Minister says that Pakistan is just putting up more & more questions as a charade, will you not be prompted even for a moment to step out of your Pakistani skin and don a new perspective?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are right on that. But you have to be sensitized to the fact that he is the master. The ring man. If you let him go and clip his wings only for now, he is going to carry out Mumbai-II. Just as worse was to follow from terrorists released from Kandahar (9/11, Daniel Pearl etc.). India wants to close the tap for good rather than just stem the flow. If LeT shuts down as an organisation, it will make it that much more difficult for JuM and HM to plan strikes on India.

Saeed's punishment will be a serious reverse to the jihadi way of meting out justice via fidayeen proxy.

I cannot be sensitized to the fact that he was involved in plotting or perpetrating the Mumbai attacks unless there is evidence implicating him in them - evidence that is clearly lacking at this point.

 

[gubbi]

I cannot be sensitized to the fact that he was involved in plotting or perpetrating the Mumbai attacks unless there is evidence implicating him in them - evidence that is clearly lacking at this point.

Ah, denial again. Oh C'mon man, be a man and accept that faults lies with you (Pakistan state).
You say that evidence is lacking even after presenting all the evidence that Indian authorities collected. Apparently the Indian authorities are incompetent because the evidences collected are discarded as not quite enough by the superior Pakistani authorities, the very authorities who have an excellent track record of nabbing terrorists and bringing them to book. Oh history is replete with numerous instances wherein Pak authorities have nabbed many a terrorists and sentenced them successfully. The irony is not lost on worlds' observers.

That's the primary reason why Indians refused for a joint-investigation team. Who's to say that evidence collected will not be transferred to the terrorists by 'rouges' in your team and help them escape. Happened during the Kandahar hijacking of IA flight. No matter how much you may want to remain in a state of denial, the truth is out there for everyone to see, and that's why Pakistan finds itself in a situation as it is in today. Give me any other sane reason to the contrary.

You are not obliged by any international laws to accept any evidence pointed out to you and act accordingly, and you do choose not to obey. But this denial and arrogance of brushing off painstaking work by investigators from around the globe will harm Pak interests in the long run.

Jhoote ghamand mein, aapne hi per pe khuladi mar rahe ho.

 

[lamayuru]

I cannot be sensitized to the fact that he was involved in plotting or perpetrating the Mumbai attacks unless there is evidence implicating him in them - evidence that is clearly lacking at this point.

AM bhai, How hard is it to START the process of legislation? Aap log usko hiraasat main rakh ke investigate to karo..
Then if you dont find evidence you can let him go. Without following on the leads how can you reject whatever GoI provides out of hand?