The Bollywood-ization of Pakistan

[muse]

Ok - lets summarize


Some Pakistanis (trend makers) freely choose to identify with Indian culture - this is all the more curious, given the hostility between the two countries and especially given the ideologically driven Pakistani state and religious establishment.

People are nostalgic some say -- yet why should or would people be "nostalgic" about something thay have never known?? So, it's not nostalgia, it is a new phenomenon.

Then there is the social Darwinism idea - and that seems the most satisfying, you will recall the following statement:

"Their culture is more developed, stronger and more powerful than ours," said Amjad. "Also, they've marketed themselves so well that it's easy for us to believe they are better

."

This a remarkable statement - Pakistani Islamist ideology is then a net "loser" is it not? It is barren, it fails. Is this not so??

And so the implication of state policy??

Some here have argued culture is not related geo-politics - Easy there Chan Akya!! Everything is related. Clearly Pakistanis seem to see much to admire and identify with in Indian culture, how can this not have a geo-political impact??

Now - since Pakistanis like the singing and dancing, being free and having fun bit - why is their own culture deficient in this regard?? Was it always like this?? What changed??

 

[burper]

tradition and religion are two different things. for eg, a same festival in india is celebrated in different ways in different indian states.
hmm... im not sure how a traditional pakistani wedding looks.

 

[donrahul]

Ok - lets summarize


Some Pakistanis (trend makers) freely choose to identify with Indian culture - this is all the more curious, given the hostility between the two countries and especially given the ideologically driven Pakistani state and religious establishment.

People are nostalgic some say -- yet why should or would people be "nostalgic" about something thay have never known?? So, it's not nostalgia, it is a new phenomenon.

Then there is the social Darwinism idea - and that seems the most satisfying, you will recall the following statement:
."

This a remarkable statement - Pakistani Islamist ideology is then a net "loser" is it not? It is barren, it fails. Is this not so??

And so the implication of state policy??

Some here have argued culture is not related geo-politics - Easy there Chan Akya!! Everything is related. Clearly Pakistanis seem to see much to admire and identify with in Indian culture, how can this not have a geo-political impact??

Now - since Pakistanis like the singing and dancing, being free and having fun bit - why is their own culture deficient in this regard?? Was it always like this?? What changed??

I have a whole bunch of friends, myself included, who love italian food.. It has never affected geo politics.. There is a big crowd of people in Pakistan who love the chinese more than anyone else.. But they cant and wont identify with the chinese culture and Food habits.. Harvard students, in the early twenties were idealogically communist, culturally american, and religiously christians, yet some of the spied for the USSR.. Geopolitics and Culture cant be treated on the same lines.. They have different impacts..

Culturally Pakistani Punjabis were closer to Indian Punjabis and share their love for Bhangra... East Pakistanis are culturally more closer to West Bengal.. an East pakistani would identify himself with a Bengali rather than a West PAkistani.. Geo politics?? where is it??

What has changed is the mindset of people, who assume that they have always been like Arabic Muslims for the past 12 centuries, although the formation of an Islamic republic of Pakistan is a new factor and prior to that Hindus/Muslims lived together celebrating in accordance to their respective regions.. eg Punjabi and Sindhi..

 

[muse]

A strong argument it would seem, but superficial. The US enjoys close relations with countries of the Western Europe because of a cultural affinity.

The US enjoys no such relationship with any Muslim country because of a lack of cultural affinity.

Israeli are a semitic, middle eastern peoples and yet have a cultrual affinity with the US - do you see any geo-political implication there??

Now, for gentle indian friends, a reminder that celebrating festivals is not the entirety of cultural affinity -- and perhaps a less than gentle reminder, but unfortunately necessary, Pakistan exists, and it does so not because Muslims and Hindus were such great pals - lets focus, not lose ourselves in make believe.

What has changed is the mindset of people, who assume that they have always been like Arabic Muslims for the past 12 centuries

I see, so in your opinion, these people are now "rediscovering" or "reverting" back to their indian non-arab, non-Islamic "roots"?? First you suggest that cultures are not static, now you seem to be saying that beyond not being static, it is "nostalgia" for something they have never known???

Just when you seem to have been making sense... try harder, do better. What has changed? First they went into complete rejection mode, rejecting anything Indian, WHY?? What had changed? Now the pendullum seems to have swung the other way - WHY?? What changed??

The Mindset? Duh! Elaborate, What changed and WHY?

 

[donrahul]

A strong argument it would seem, but superficial. The US enjoys close relations with countries of the Western Europe because of a cultural affinity.

The US enjoys no such relationship with any Muslim country because of a lack of cultural affinity.

Israeli are a semitic, middle eastern peoples and yet have a cultrual affinity with the US - do you see any geo-political implication there??

Now, for gentle indian friends, a reminder that celebrating festivals is not the entirety of cultural affinity -- and perhaps a less than gentle reminder, but unfortunately necessary, Pakistan exists, and it does so not because Muslims and Hindus were such great pals - lets focus, not lose ourselves in make believe.



I see, so in your opinion, these people are now "rediscovering" or "reverting" back to their indian non-arab, non-Islamic "roots"?? First you suggest that cultures are not static, now you seem to be saying that beyond not being static, it is "nostalgia" for something they have never known???

Just when you seem to have been making sense... try harder, do better. What has changed? First they went into complete rejection mode, rejecting anything Indian, WHY?? What had changed? Now the pendullum seems to have swung the other way - WHY?? What changed??

The Mindset? Duh! Elaborate, What changed and WHY?

You realize that my statements are in line with my arguments.. when the nation-state of Pakistan was formed, sentiments ran high and people wanted to enjoy the fruits of nationhood and this lead to rejection of their parent culture (which reflects the place where they were brought up and which they identify with before the birth of Pakistan) .. Now, People have realized that hard core islamisation has lead them into all kinds of problems.. and they yearn for the "lost" culture.. You like a thing, coz you identify with it(not material goods).. While Islam is going to be the religion, the culture would be influenced by what they identify with..

Would you prefer a Somali folk dance for your wedding? or for that matter a Russian Ballet for your wedding?? would you dress up the way, the fijians dress.. ( I remember The Spight fellow... Suit and Skirt ) You cant! Coz you cannot identify with them...

 

[salman nedian]

Since both the countries have different viewpoints and religion, I think bollywood movies are propagating teachings which are against Islam and state of Pakistan. Such media presentations should not be allowed in Pakistan coz it can spread anger and hatred against India so if we want a peaceful world we should not impose out ideologies on others and let others believe what they believe.

 

[Kasrkin]

You realize that my statements are in line with my arguments.. when the nation-state of Pakistan was formed, sentiments ran high and people wanted to enjoy the fruits of nationhood and this lead to rejection of their parent culture (which reflects the place where they were brought up and which they identify with before the birth of Pakistan) .. Now, People have realized that hard core islamisation has lead them into all kinds of problems.. and they yearn for the "lost" culture..

You do realize sir, given that most people here ARE Pakistanis, your arguement regarding their 'yearning for lost Hindu cultures' is not very credible. And at best can be regarded as childish and wishful thinking by those who are way too sure of their own culture and are in complete disregard for and in ignorance of the sovereignty of other, equalily independent and developed (if not more) cultures, like that being represented by the Muslims of the Subcontinent.

 

[muse]

Unfortunately our indian interlocutor is regurgitating Hindutva ideology instead of thinking and our Pakistani interlocutors are going into defensive mode.

It's got absolutely nothing with what I think, whether Indian is better than somali dancing -

the answer to what's ghanged and why is the statement of one, Ahmad, quoted in the article:

Indian culture is now seen as "powerful, strong and better than ours" whereas previously it was not, is because it, indian culture, is accepted by the dominant culture, Western - and Pakistani or islamist "culture" (or lack thereof) is seen as unacceptable.

notice what Ahmad says about, the success of "marketing" of Indian culture.

So, the pakistanis interviewed and quoted in the article see indian culture asa winning or acceptable culture, one with which they can identify themselves with -- So why have they not identified with the dominant Western culture?? What cultural/political ideas prevent them from doing so?? And what relation does this have with geo-politics??

In whic cultural reference do these pakistanis think their "core values" are preserved?? Obviously the indian -- why? Which "core value" is in conflict with Western culture?? could it be belief in God or religion?? The Western notion of God and religion is exactly what exists in Pakistan and islamia, what then explains deposition of core vlaues in the Indian culture?? Could it have something to do with women???

What about women and core values of Pakistanis would find security in Indian culture???

 

[su-47]

Gentle Indian friends -

Are religion and culture the same thing? Well, let reasonable people decide.

But allow me pose a few more questions:

If religion (Islam) and culture are not the same thing, what are "Islamists" all about???

Religion and culture are different. Their definitions (from wikipedia) are as follows:

A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate")generally refers to patterns of human activity and the symbolic structures that give such activities significance and importance. Cultures can be "understood as systems of symbols and meanings that even their creators contest, that lack fixed boundaries, that are constantly in flux, and that interact and compete with one another"

Religion can remained unchanged for millennias, whereas culture is constantly changing. Also, they influence each other. The system of women covering their faces and whole body in burkhas were part of arab culture before the advent of islam. now burkhas are seen as a mark of islam, than that of arab culture. but a lot of muslims world over dont wear burkhas as it is not part of their culture. also muslim in saudi arabia and muslim in india are very different. most indian muslims can identify himself more with a indian hindu than with arabs. i hope this explains difference between culture and religion.

about islamists, even they are influenced by culture. islamists in chechnya operate and behave in a different way than the taleban in afghanistan. that is due to cultural differences.

I would like to point out one example from my region in the country.. Tamilnadu.. here the Sun God is worshipped by the farmers. its like thanking the Sun God for the bountiful Harvest.. Although it can be assumed its a hindu festival, the festival called as Pongal is associated more with the Tamil region and language( In other places, the festival is called by other names) and all people irrespective of religion celebrate it(including christians and muslims) Coz its with the land and the blood of the people here.

In Kerala we have a similar festival called Onam. it is very much a cultural festival than a religious one, though its traditions are rooted in Hinduism. Hindus outside Kerala dont celebrate it, but within Kerala, Hindus, muslims and christians alike celebrate the festival. Even here in Botswana, the keralite community celebrates Onam, with Christians and Muslims making a sizable chunk of the attendance.

 

[su-47]

Unfortunately our indian interlocutor is regurgitating Hindutva ideology instead of thinking and our Pakistani interlocutors are going into defensive mode.

It's got absolutely nothing with what I think, whether Indian is better than somali dancing -

the answer to what's ghanged and why is the statement of one, Ahmad, quoted in the article:

Indian culture is now seen as "powerful, strong and better than ours" whereas previously it was not, is because it, indian culture, is accepted by the dominant culture, Western - and Pakistani or islamist "culture" (or lack thereof) is seen as unacceptable.

notice what Ahmad says about, the success of "marketing" of Indian culture.

So, the pakistanis interviewed and quoted in the article see indian culture asa winning or acceptable culture, one with which they can identify themselves with -- So why have they not identified with the dominant Western culture?? What cultural/political ideas prevent them from doing so?? And what relation does this have with geo-politics??

In whic cultural reference do these pakistanis think their "core values" are preserved?? Obviously the indian -- why? Which "core value" is in conflict with Western culture?? could it be belief in God or religion?? The Western notion of God and religion is exactly what exists in Pakistan and islamia, what then explains deposition of core values in the Indian culture?? Could it have something to do with women???

What about women and core values of Pakistanis would find security in Indian culture???

The reason western culture is not identified with in pakistan is coz western culture is seen as distant and unconnected with pakistan's existing culture, whereas indian culture is more identified with.

 

[Spring Onion]

I would rather you use that people are rightfully scared that their cultures are being over-run.. Happens everywhere and happens all the time, although humans in general are nostalgic about anything and everything and are comfortable when there is no change.. In the end , its Darwin's theory that wins.. People whose culture adapts the new culture to their culture are the ones who survive.. on the same way, the adaptible religion or religion with a stronger will power, survives..

well those who have own strong values they dont see any fear nor they are scared that their culture is over-run.

AS i had already stated many times that what is Indian culture exactly ?????


Is it wearing Saris or buying Indian jewlery or cloths that is precieved as adopting Indian culture ????

People in Pakistan and arround the world also wear jeans, pants, shirts, skirts. We buy Western clothing, other daily-used items as well. Chines products have flooded not only Pakistani markets but the world over.

So does it mean out culture is being over run by Western, Chines or Indian culture????
I am so amazed to see people here are advocating that buying Indian products means they are over runing us culturaly????


Plus the Indians are fast adopting the more daring bold dresses copied from the West does it mean Indian culture is being over-run by the West???

I think in case of Pakistan its more to do with things which are within limits as prescribed by our faith.

 

[donrahul]

Dear Muse.. I am not a believer of Hindutva idealogy.. I love people the way they are, they are my opinions only.. All I am saying is culture is rooted with the land and the people living there and in their blood.. So you see the influence of the land in the people.. Lahoris with bangra and bangladeshis with Bengali.. Islamic values are religion oriented rather than being oriented with the land.. so even if Pakistanis worship the Supreme lord Allah, their cultural values, like food/dance/weddings are influenced by the land.. No where did i bring in Hinduism.. If Pakistan was closer to China, where the chinese culture spills over to them, then the outcome would be different and vice versa.. Since Pakistani Punjab and Indian punjab share a common history/land/influences, you see that the people prefer that culture, which is alien to Islamic values..

 

[muse]

Su47. Rahul, Jana

Religion and culture not the same??

Exactly, they are not the same - now some one please tell the islamistas who have done irrevocable damage to the entire idea of culture in Pakistan.

What does the pakistanis deposition of core values in Indian culture and not in Western culture have to do with women??

Women, in Pakistan, are non entities, non persons. Pakistanis will choose many aspects of Western culture as sources to admire and emmulate, but the stop when it comes to WOMEN -- Why? Because women scare them, especially women who think for themselves and worse still, beave as if they do not need the money (security) men seek to provide.

So why security indian culture? Why would Pakistani women seek to define themselves in Indian culture as opposed to the dominant world culture?

Pakistani women cannot identify woth the dominant world culture because the melieu in whic they function, rejects women as persons (thank you tradition and Islamistas) - however; in Indian culture there is a venue for sensual and sexual expression, that is, acceptable to the fragile Pakistani male culture - in Indian culture the leash is longer for Pakistani women.

And women are carriers of culture, more so than men - you want to look at the reality of a society, look at the roles of women in society - in the lead article posted by boblo, notice who it is that is enthusiastic about Indian culture and the sensuous and sexual expression within that culture - it's the clothes, the jewelry -- now fancy clothes and jewlry is available elsewhere, so why Indian clothes and jewelry? because it's acceptable and Western is not.

What does any of this suggest about "values" as they relate to popular culture??

Well, for one thing, Pakistanis want to associate with a culture they percieve as winning and as acceptable by the West. Pakistani attitudes towards things indian went from rejection to enthusiastic approval because Pakistanis percieve Indians rising material success as a affirmation of a culture they can identify with, previously Indian and things Indian were associate with poverty and it's not the same.

The culture of West is something ordinary Pakistanis cannot succeed in, even the women cannot succeed in it, and they cannot "safely" interact in either sensuous and sexual expression - the only venues they have experience with.
Men in Pakistani culture cannot succeed in western culture either, which then means that they adhere to islamists ideas in the guise of tradition.

Frequent Interaction between men and women is a "western idea" - the open expression of sensuality and sexuality is a "western idea" -- however; histories of the subcontinent does not bear this out -- so what accounts for these notions - could it be that the rejection of these notions is expressed in terms of Islamic values? You bet! Once couched as islamic values, any challenge to these is posed as a challenge to islam itself.

So why is it that indian culture is not seen as a challenge to islam??

Who says, that it's not? Just look at the political discourse.

Lost in all of this, is any notion of Pakistani culture -- You will note that none of the interlocutors, Indian or pakistani will have anything to do with whatever, is, Pakistani culture - don't you find that curious??

 

[donrahul]

Atleast we have agreed on one point... That Islam rewrites the culture of the land...

 

[muse]

All religions effect culture, how could they not - but ISLAMISTS seek to replace culture itself with their definition of religion as culture.