The big three who can help save Afghanistan

[Sinnerman108]

Actually for the record , there was reason for us to get scared , USSR had supported India against us well before ... What it would have done if it had managed to take control of Afghanistan is a known unknown ! ... No to whom ? ... Back then , there was no threat , just calls from the Americans to support them against communism ...



Change this last one , it is racist !

am I discriminating ?

How is that racist ? We can look upon the defition of racism and find out ?

I have listed my observation based upon experiences.
You are free to list your experiences which suggest otherwise.

 

[illusion8]

Exactly what did the US get busy into ? Care to explain ... After the end of Soviet war and dissolution of USSR , the US of A was more than free to try to rebuild Afghanistan because the world had become uni-polar and there was no one to oppose it , the US simply had no problems to take care of , the Cold war had ended ... So what did the Americans do ? They simply abandoned Afghanistan to rot because their mission was accomplished and interests well taken care of instead of trying to rebuild it , they should have installed a proxy Govt maybe and an army like ANA like they doing now , did they do so ? ... Sanctions were slapped on Pakistan again ... What choice did our Govt have instead of negotiating / compromising between different warlords in Afghanistan and of course just like any other state taking care of its interests ? The Talibans were ideal candidates at that time , since the NA was funded by India ( another part your lot conveniently skips ) and considered anti-Pakistani by the Govt ... Yes , we thought they could one day lead the country properly and unlike some at least we tried ! The Frankenstein was created by the US but now being blamed on Pakistan , ironic isn't it ?

Let me tell you one thing ... Pakistan has decades of experience dealing in that country and if we accept that we cant handle that country and bring peace , prosperity and stability to Afghanistan then believe it or not , none else can ! The Americans learned it the hard way asking Islamabad again to participate in the Afghan peace process , the same people who earlier spit venom against us for finding a way out of this mess by starting peace talks ... We all saw the results of Bonn Conference and Chicago summit without the Pakistani participation which essentially became an all expense paid trip to " sit , talk , leave " sort of thing with zero results !

You talk of the Durand Line ? Do you really have any idea about the geography and condition of that particular region ? I bet you do not ! So before talking of the impossible sealing of the border , research a little ...

Yes it isn't , but if it isn't then its nobody's cup of tea ... Why exactly should we get out of the way ? ... Yes , we have seen the progress of " bigger " countries in Afghanistan from 2001 till present and it was enough of an eye opener ... If a International Coalition force couldn't control the country in a decade , what hope do you have for ANA which is itself infiltrated by various militias ? ... Actually , you would ask us to give a hand otherwise all your efforts will be in vain ...



Actually , its the mighty US of A keen , eager or shall i say anxious and desperate to negotiate with Taliban and get out of that country ...

No one's denying the part where the US left Afghanistan after their purpose was served even the US acknowledges it, did you ask them to stay behind? you got busy with your proxies who wanted a reward for the efforts they put in in overthrowing USSR from the region - so you gave them Afghanistan on a platter.

Secondly your decades of experience in dealing with Afghanistan is on what criteria? the drug industry, the successful management of the civil war orchestrated in Afghanistan after Soviets left, letting Afghanistan become a base for all Islamic extremist groups, Proxy running of the Taliban backed group, Al Qaeda's recruitment base and propagation of Global Jihad?

Afghanistan did not exactly prosper under your watch - in fact it became a breeding ground for radicals - so was this your experience at play?

If this the experience you want to bring back to Afghanistan then sorry to say no one wants a part of it least of all the Afghan people.

The porous borders is just a reason - what comes into play is the propensity of Pakistan in developing insurgency groups from its experience from the India border. These groups are highly networked so you are in no position to ask them to stop fighting in a certain sector and carry on fighting in another. You are either for them or you are against them and the desire to have strategic depth does not let you give away your control of them.

Having established that handling Afghanistan and taking them in the right direction is neither Pakistan's cup of tea neither its desire - it becomes the priority of others to do that. It is high time that the Afghanis are treated as people rather than as pawns for your benefit.

Others may or may not be successful but other than that there's no option left. Either its the US group or the Russian group or any kind of mix and matches that can be worked out - but not a solo Pakistan. Pakistan can become a part of a group.

 

[illusion8]

And does Iran's plans feature Permanent US bases or the interest US has to the vast mineral riches that afghanistan has .So basically what your trying to say is that both US and Iran (mortal enemies) would not only peacefully coexist but also help development in afghanistan in the name of northern alliance ,Without conflicting with each other's interest.?

And the Russia's problems with drugs is bigger then US strategic presence in the region?

You better read up! its called the new great game in Afghanistan !

As I said check back with Iran and Russia - Iran's involvement helps in two ways - US becomes neutral to them and Iran wants the US to continue in Afghanistan till it gets sorted and then leave so does Russia - But they don't want continued US presence in Afghanistan for sure. My point is Iran and Russia will be more than willing to take up the job of stabilizing Afghanistan - and that's for sure.

 

[SamantK]

Actually for the record , there was reason for us to get scared , USSR had supported India against us well before , who was to say it wouldn't have acted anti-Pakistan again and flared up tensions at our Western borders ? ... What it would have done if it had managed to take control of Afghanistan is a known unknown ! ... We can never know for sure ... No to whom ? ... Back then , there was no threat , just calls from the Americans to support them against communism ...

Did I deny that there was no reason to fear in the scenario you believe in?

USSR supported India in the third war, before that it was always Pakistan which agressed upon India, another mistake (or shall we say fear?) Regarding 71, India did not expect Pakistan's Operation Searchlight.. Training Mukti bahini was a matter of national security, a Country which attacked before was a potential threat and that too on two side, India was a third world and a poor nation then.. So, USSR, which was present on the request of the then govt of Afghanistan, was not there to occupy Pakistan. Soviet was US' throne in the neck because of the influence, which it wanted removed.. and btw I do not believe in your theory of Zia getting scared..

Having the balls to say no to America and not use the Religious card (according to your scenario)

 

[Secur]

No one's denying the part where the US left Afghanistan after their purpose was served even the US acknowledges it, did you ask them to stay behind? you got busy with your proxies who wanted a reward for the efforts they put in in overthrowing USSR from the region - so you gave them Afghanistan on a platter.

Secondly your decades of experience in dealing with Afghanistan is on what criteria? the drug industry, the successful management of the civil war orchestrated in Afghanistan after Soviets left, letting Afghanistan become a base for all Islamic extremist groups, Proxy running of the Taliban backed group, Al Qaeda's recruitment base and propagation of Global Jihad?

Afghanistan did not exactly prosper under your watch - in fact it became a breeding ground for radicals - so was this your experience at play?

If this the experience you want to bring back to Afghanistan then sorry to say no one wants a part of it least of all the Afghan people.

The porous borders is just a reason - what comes into play is the propensity of Pakistan in developing insurgency groups from its experience from the India border. These groups are highly networked so you are in no position to ask them to stop fighting in a certain sector and carry on fighting in another. You are either for them or you are against them and the desire to have strategic depth does not let you give away your control of them.

Having established that handling Afghanistan and taking them in the right direction is neither Pakistan's cup of tea neither its desire - it becomes the priority of others to do that. It is high time that the Afghanis are treated as people rather than as pawns for your benefit.

Others may or may not be successful but other than that there's no option left. Either its the US group or the Russian group or any kind of mix and matches that can be worked out - but not a solo Pakistan. Pakistan can become a part of a group.

Actually , everyone's here denying that part and putting the whole blame on Pakistan as if US is some sort of angel ... Yes we did but the US has suddenly realized the open secret that Islamabad was developing nuclear weapons ( Enlightened after their interests were met ! ) and imposed sanctions on us ... Again what you refer to as proxies were mere warlords controlled by different countries for their interests , Pakistan wasn't any exception ... How exactly did we give Afghanistan to anyone if we didn't have it in the first place ?

What part of dealing in Afghanistan did you not understand ? That piece of land which lacked coherence as a nation was filled with different warlords and factions which we had to balance out / compromise between , make sure that our borders were safe and our interests secured ... The drug industry was the main source of income for these warlords , where does Pakistan come in between ? Actually , evidence suggests that we tried to stabilize the country by encouraging them to settle their differences ... What Afghanistan became wasn't our fault or something we could control ...

Yes it didn't prosper under our watch , but neither it did under the last 200 years of Civil war , nor under Communist rule , nor under Soviet one and not exactly under 10 years of ISAF watch ! Afghanistan was a breeding ground of radicals long before ... The point being ? ... We want to bring peace to Afghanistan without screwing up ourselves too ... Taking care of interests , as long as it is not anti-Pakistan , its fine ...

There are many other reasons which you have conveniently skipped just because they dont suit you ... First of all , I asked you to research a little about the geography of that particular region - the contacts , relations and inter-marriages that Pashtuns on this side of the border have with their fellow Pashtun on the other side of the Durand Line ... Impossible it is , for the Govt of Pakistan to stop the movement of common people ... Your beloved ISAF has tried it for long , if it cant seal the border , then why do you expect it from my country ?

Having established that handling Afghanistan is nobody's cup of tea and the country's screwed up beyond repair ... Are you trying to say that a stable Afghanistan is not in interest of Pakistan ? Do you know of the damage to our economy and deterioration of law and order , add the causalities in our country due to the situation in Afghanistan ?

Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to do anything in that country ... The US asks for our assistance in peace talks and the results of Bonn conference and Chicago summit are well known ... The influence of Pakistan in that country is simply too much to ignore - Russians , Americans , Iran and the CAR countries have realized it ...

Did I deny that there was no reason to fear in the scenario you believe in?

USSR supported India in the third war, before that it was always Pakistan which agressed upon India, another mistake (or shall we say fear?) Regarding 71, India did not expect Pakistan's Operation Searchlight.. So, USSR, which was present on the request of the then govt of Afghanistan, was not there to occupy Pakistan. Soviet was US' throne in the neck because of the influence, which it wanted removed.. and btw I do not believe in your theory of Zia getting scared..

You kind of , did

I conveniently skipped over the earlier wars and their reason for it was not the topic of the thread and I will not comment on that ... I only mentioned why USSR was seen as the " bad guy " by Pakistanis in the 80's ... Involvement of that country with our adversary certainly didn't make it our friend ... So , USSR future aims if it had controlled Afghanistan remain a topic of debate and something which we can never know for sure or be certain of ... But it was a cause of alarm in Pakistan back then ...

 

[illusion8]

Actually , everyone's here denying that part and putting the whole blame on Pakistan as if US is some sort of angel ... Yes we did but the US has suddenly realized the open secret that Islamabad was developing nuclear weapons ( Enlightened after their interests were met ! ) and imposed sanctions on us ... Again what you refer to as proxies were mere warlords controlled by different countries for their interests , Pakistan wasn't any exception ... How exactly did we give Afghanistan to anyone if we didn't have it in the first place?

I very well remember numerous statements from the US that they left Afghanistan to fend for itself.

What part of dealing in Afghanistan did you not understand ? That piece of land which lacked coherence as a nation was filled with different warlords and factions which we had to balance out / compromise between , make sure that our borders were safe and our interests secured ... The drug industry was the main source of income for these warlords , where does Pakistan come in between ? Actually , evidence suggests that we tried to stabilize the country by encouraging them to settle their differences ... What Afghanistan became wasn't our fault or something we could control ...

Afghanistan is a land locked country and the drugs are a major portion of that drugs is transited through Pakistan - hope you will not deny that - you could have controlled that but then that was a source of income for the Taliban, and the balancing out part was something done brilliantly by you..right?? did you try out any sort of Governance setup in Afghanistan and bringing all the different groups together - don't think so - you backed the Mujahids and the Talibs to fight out the other groups - just because they were backed by others resulting in a civil war between different entities, your interests were paramount so if allowed that's going to happen again right? What evidence do you have that you wanted the NA to bring them into active Governance?

Yes it didn't prosper under our watch , but neither it did under the last 200 years of Civil war , nor under Communist rule , nor under Soviet one and not exactly under 10 years of ISAF watch ! Afghanistan was a breeding ground of radicals long before ... The point being ? ... We want to bring peace to Afghanistan without screwing up ourselves too ... Taking care of interests , as long as it is not anti-Pakistan , its fine ...

Yes it did not prosper under your watch it got messed up and lets forget about the 200 year old history there was no Pakistan 200 years ago, The Soviets tried but then they ended up fighting the US, Afghanistan became a proxy playground for two superpowers of that time. Take care of your interests by all means but do not train and send Jihadii's into others territory - Afghanistan, India and Iran and China have the same complaints against you.

There are many other reasons which you have conveniently skipped just because they dont suit you ... First of all , I asked you to research a little about the geography of that particular region , the contacts , relations and inter-marriages that Pashtuns on this side of the border have with their fellow Pashtun on the other side of the Durand Line ... Impossible it is , for the Govt of Pakistan to stop the movement of common people ... Your beloved ISAF has tried it for long , if it cant seal the border , then why do you expect it from my country ?

On one hand you say you secured your borders - on the other you talk of not having control on your own territories - agreed Pakistan does not have the resources neither the means to monitor or soldier its own territory and lot of the border areas are out of your control. Let's find a solution for that.

Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to do anything in that country ... The US asks for our assistance in peace talks and the results of Bonn conference and Chicago summit are well known ... The influence of Pakistan in that country is simply too much to ignore - Russians , Americans , Iran and the CAR countries have realized it ...

Not necessarily - Don't think the ISAF or the USSR consulted with Pakistan on Afghan affairs till date - Pakistan is a transit route - and its influence is with the proxies on its ground namely the Taliban centers, Haqqanis, Al qaeda and numerous groups. Neither China nor India or Iran consulted with Pakistan to get mining leases in Afghanistan or put up rail links or roads in Afghanistan. Pakistan does need the permission of the Afghan Government and now the permission of the international community, you do need a passport to enter Afghanistan territory legally - I don't think that Afghanistan is Pakistan's property. You need the permission of the Afghan authorities to do anything in that country and that's if what you do is of any positive value.

Looks like you need a major rethink on Afghanistan and start treating it more as a country rather than your personal property.

 

[SamantK]

You kind of , did

I conveniently skipped over the earlier wars and their reason for it was not the topic of the thread and I will not comment on that ... I only mentioned why USSR was seen as the " bad guy " by Pakistanis in the 80's ... Involvement of that country with our adversary certainly didn't make it our friend ... So , USSR future aims if it had controlled Afghanistan remain a topic of debate and something which we can never know for sure or be certain of ... But it was a cause of alarm in Pakistan back then ...

In your version of the history, no I did not...

I will ask you again to quote your research before even a sensible debate can be started..

Last time you rubbished my links saying that they week b.s.

 

[Secur]

I very well remember numerous statements from the US that they left Afghanistan to fend for itself.

Afghanistan is a land locked country and the drugs are a major portion of that drugs is transited through Pakistan - hope you will not deny that - you could have controlled that but then that was a source of income for the Taliban, and the balancing out part was something done brilliantly by you..right?? did you try out any sort of Governance setup in Afghanistan and bringing all the different groups together - don't think so - you backed the Mujahids and the Talibs to fight out the other groups - just because they were backed by others resulting in a civil war between different entities, your interests were paramount so if allowed that's going to happen again right? What evidence do you have that you wanted the NA to bring them into active Governance?



Yes it did not prosper under your watch it got messed up and lets forget about the 200 year old history there was no Pakistan 200 years ago, The Soviets tried but then they ended up fighting the US, Afghanistan became a proxy playground for two superpowers of that time. Take care of your interests by all means but do not train and send Jihadii's into others territory - Afghanistan, India and Iran and China have the same complaints against you.



On one hand you say you secured your borders - on the other you talk of not having control on your own territories - agreed Pakistan does not have the resources neither the means to monitor or soldier its own territory and lot of the border areas are out of your control. Let's find a solution for that.



Not necessarily - Don't think the ISAF or the USSR consulted with Pakistan on Afghan affairs till date - Pakistan is a transit route - and its influence is with the proxies on its ground namely the Taliban centers, Haqqanis, Al qaeda and numerous groups. Neither China nor India or Iran consulted with Pakistan to get mining leases in Afghanistan or put up rail links or roads in Afghanistan. Pakistan does need the permission of the Afghan Government and now the permission of the international community, you do need a passport to enter Afghanistan territory legally - I don't think that Afghanistan is Pakistan's property. You have to talk to the Afghan authorities to do anything in that country.

Looks like you need a major rethink on Afghanistan and start treating it more as a country rather than your personal property.

Read my post again , I didn't dispute their statements , I merely said that their admission of the mistake didn't make the situation right / make Afghanistan peaceful and stable ... US didn't try to mend its mistake until it was attacked at the mainland in 2001 ...

Yes it is , hugely dependent on Pakistan and there's no denial that drugs are a major source of income for that country ... But the allegation that my country facilitated the trade of drugs officially when we ourselves are affected by it is pure bull **** , each and every neighboring country of Afghanistan had to bear that menace ! Drug trafficking is done around the world and Pakistan is no exception ... Every single faction in that country including NA was asked by Govt of Pakistan to settle their differences ... Yes we tried to balance out and we failed but we at least we tried to bring some stability to that country ! We backed the Mujahids or almost the whole anti-Communists bloc backed them ? ... Good to see you admit that the backing of other warlords by different countries worsened the situation ... Why so keen to put all blame on Pakistan then ? Each country's interests are considered as paramount by itself but a stable Afghanistan is in the best interest of my country ...

Not my problem , if you cant read posts in the right context ... How would you explain the 200 years before then ? Before US-USSR fought for world domination ... Except for you , no country has any complaints with us ...

Yes we secured our borders back then , there was no law and order situation deteriorating in Pakistan at that time ... Not having control on our own territories ? Where exactly did I say anything that sort , point me to that comment ? ... Making up stuff by yourself ... ... Hey ! We are talking about a border called the Durand Line , not territory ... Except for North Waziristan , writ of the Govt is established in every single part of Pakistan ... So you might want to update yourself on " lot of border areas " and ponder why doesn't ISAF and ANA do not control their side of the border ... Each time there is a operation in FATA , they left the borders wide open and the militants flee ... Any explanation ?

I said Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to deal in that country , how exactly does it translate to " others " have to take our permission ? ... Twist not the words ! My country has significant influence in Afghanistan besides that on different factions , the currency of Pakistan is used in major Afghan cities and what not ... Neither China , Iran and India are making any progress on the ground , are they ? ... The Americans want to pack their bags and run , their major allies want that piece of hell abandoned and Western analysts are already warning of Afghanistan " being on the verge of collapse after 2014 " ... Sorry to burst your bubble , but there's no central Afghan Govt Whom should we talk to ? Permission of the International community which is itself in trouble and needs our assistance ? There's a reason why Karzai is called " Mayor of Kabul " since he enjoys no real power except in the Presidential palace in Kabul ... The rest of what you said were all imagined " best case scenarios " which again sorry to say aren't happening in the foreseeable future ... Look up Pakistan-Afghanistan relations from the beginning and you will get an idea ... There are some here who need a major rethink , not us ...

 

[Secur]

I will ask you again to quote your research before even a sensible debate can be started..

Last time you rubbished my links saying that they week b.s.

Which one ? That USSR was seen as a bad guy ? I have already answered every single of your queries in that debate and I am not really interested in repeating same things again and again ...

I didn't ... You just provided me some 3-4 links on a never proven theory ... Doesn't make it a fact

 

[illusion8]

Read my post again , I didn't dispute their statements , I merely said that their admission of the mistake didn't make the situation right / make Afghanistan peaceful and stable ... US didn't try to mend its mistake until it was attacked at the mainland in 2001 ...

Yes it is , hugely dependent on Pakistan and there's no denial that drugs are a major source of income for that country ... But the allegation that my country facilitated the trade of drugs officially when we ourselves are affected by it is pure bull **** , each and every neighboring country of Afghanistan had to bear that menace ! Drug trafficking is done around the world and Pakistan is no exception ... Every single faction in that country including NA was asked by Govt of Pakistan to settle their differences ... Yes we tried to balance out and we failed but we at least we tried to bring some stability to that country ! We backed the Mujahids or almost the whole anti-Communists bloc backed them ? ... Good to see you admit that the backing of other warlords by different countries worsened the situation ... Why so keen to put all blame on Pakistan then ? Each country's interests are considered as paramount by itself but a stable Afghanistan is in the best interest of my country ...

Not my problem , if you cant read posts in the right context ... How would you explain the 200 years before then ? Before US-USSR fought for world domination ... Except for you , no country has any complaints with us ...

Yes we secured our borders back then , there was no law and order situation deteriorating in Pakistan at that time ... Not having control on our own territories ? Where exactly did I say anything that sort , point me to that comment ? ... Making up stuff by yourself ... ... Hey ! We are talking about a border called the Durand Line , not territory ... Except for North Waziristan , writ of the Govt is established in every other part of Pakistan ... So you might want to update yourself on " lot of border areas " and ponder why doesn't ISAF and ANA do not control their side of the border ... Each time there is a operation in FATA , they left the borders wide open and the militants flee ... Any explanation ?

I said Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to deal in that country , how exactly does it translate to " others " have to take our permission ? ... Twist not the words ! My country has significant influence in Afghanistan besides that on different factions , the currency of Pakistan is used in major Afghan cities and what not ... Neither China , Iran and India are making any progress on the ground , are they ? ... The Americans want to pack their bags and run , their major allies want that piece of hell abandoned and Western analysts are already warning of Afghanistan " being on the verge of collapse after 2014 " ... Sorry to burst your bubble , but there's no central Afghan Govt Whom should we talk to ? Permission of the International community which is itself in trouble and needs our assistance ? There's a reason why Karzai is called " Mayor of Kabul " since he enjoys no real power except in the Presidential palace in Kabul ... The rest of what you said were all imagined " best case scenarios " which again sorry to say aren't happening in the foreseeable future ... Look up Pakistan-Afghanistan relations from the beginning and you will get an idea ... There are some here who need a major rethink , not us ...

Unbelievable - one sentence that suits you is - you are part of the problem when you could have been a part of the solution.

Going by the present trends Pakistan is in worse shape than Afghanistan so yeah whatever is your opinion about Afghanistan the same works for Pakistan in a more worse form.

Except for you , no country has any complaints with us ...

Afghanistan has been crying itself hoarse about this, China has problems with the insurgency from Pakistan, India obviously has. You need me to search for the links and post them here?

Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to do anything in that country

I said Pakistan doesn't need anyone's permission to deal in that country

Don't think both those sentences have the same meaning.

the currency of Pakistan is used in major Afghan cities and what not

Yeah in a couple of trading outpost towns,But the US dollar is the king.

Sorry to burst your bubble , but there's no central Afghan Govt Whom should we talk to ?

So who was Zardari talking to in the numerous visits if not to the President of Afghanistan the ghost of Kandahar perhaps? - Whom did China/ India/ US sign security agreements with - not your Taliban I am sure of that.

There's a reason why Karzai is called " Mayor of Kabul " since he enjoys no real power except in the Presidential palace in Kabul ...

Yeah nobody except Pakistan keeps ranting that.

Each time there is a operation in FATA , they left the borders wide open and the militants flee ... Any explanation ?

I don't have any explanations for your conspiracy theories so I'll let it pass.

We backed the Mujahids or almost the whole anti-Communists bloc backed them ?

Either the US left you high and dry or they backed you after the Soviet withdrawal - only one of it can be true - make up your mind and tell me which. Also Taliban as an entity was recognized by who exactly other than Pakistan and SA (not sure). Did any other anti communist block country back them or recognize them other than you

But the allegation that my country facilitated the trade of drugs officially when we ourselves are affected by it is pure bull ****

Bull*** according to you, not according to the world.

Every single faction in that country including NA was asked by Govt of Pakistan to settle their differences ... Yes we tried to balance out and we failed but we at least we tried to bring some stability to that country !

Any proof of that fairy tale?? if true so because you failed the Taliban went on a civil war? was this lack of success in bringing about a settlement brought to the notice of the world or the UN or your buddies the US?

there was no law and order situation deteriorating in Pakistan at that time ..

.

There was no law and order situation because there was no law and order in Afg - Taliban were the king and Shariah was the law.

Neither China , Iran and India are making any progress on the ground , are they ?

Are you sure?? - there is a lot of infra activity and investments happening in Afghanistan and its being rebuilt from the ground up, except the few Talib areas most of Afghanistan is getting back on track slowly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8678564.stm
http://www.afghanistan-today.org/article/?id=113

 

[Secur]

Unbelievable - one sentence that suits you is - you are part of the problem when you could have been a part of the solution.

Going by the present trends Pakistan is in worse shape than Afghanistan so yeah whatever is your opinion about Afghanistan the same works for Pakistan in a more worse form.

Afghanistan has been crying itself hoarse about this, China has problems with the insurgency from Pakistan, India obviously has. You need me to search for the links and post them here?

Don't think both those sentences have the same meaning.

Yeah in a couple of trading outpost towns,But the US dollar is the king.

So who was Zardari talking to in the numerous visits if not to the President of Afghanistan the ghost of Kandahar perhaps? - Whom did China/ India/ US sign security agreements with - not your Taliban I am sure of that.

Yeah nobody except Pakistan keeps ranting that.

I don't have any explanations for your conspiracy theories so I'll let it pass.

Either the US left you high and dry or they backed you after the Soviet withdrawal - only one of it can be true - make up your mind and tell me which. Also Taliban as an entity was recognized by who exactly other than Pakistan and SA (not sure). Did any other anti communist block country back them or recognize them other than you

Bull*** according to you, not according to the world.

Any proof of that fairy tale?? if true so because you failed the Taliban went on a civil war? was this lack of success in bringing about a settlement brought to the notice of the world or the UN or your buddies the US?

There was no law and order situation because there was no law and order - Taliban were the king and Shariah was the law.

Are you sure?? - there is a lot of infra activity and investments happening in Afghanistan and its being rebuilt from the ground up, except the few Talib areas most of Afghanistan is getting back on track slowly.

No , the country's itself is a problem whilst we try to keep ourselves safe because hey there's no solution ... Do not ridicule yourself by comparing Afghanistan with Pakistan !

Actually , Afghanistan has been crying since the day Pakistan was created , do we look like we give a damn **** ? ... China has internal problems with Xinjiang Muslims and has ruled out any involvement from groups operating in FATA long before , do you want me to get that link ? Leave your country aside , it has problems with almost all its neighbors ...

When read in the right context , they have

So it is , the point being ? Are you comparing the Pakistani influence with the US one now ?

A mere puppet installed by the Americans who doesn't have any power outside Kabul but since he's internationally recognized by the coalition for obvious reasons , countries are dealing with him ... But once the US leaves , he will find himself in deep trouble and all the signed agreements will be worth no more than toilet paper ... You can start by telling me the area under the control of Afghan Govt at the moment ?

The " Mayor of Kabul " isn't a Pakistani coined phrase ...

Conspiracy theory ? ... Why do you think my country doesn't want to interfere in North Waziristan at the moment ? Because we know , the terrorist will simple cross the border ... Have you heard of the cross border attacks on PA in Dir District ? Where exactly are those militants coming from and the most important question of all , what is ISAF and ANA doing while it happens ?

Nah , they abandoned and ran just like they are doing now ... Yes they were , suited our interests ... KSA was another story ... Are you under the delusion that we would have by any chance allowed an anti-Pakistan alliance to rule Afghanistan ? Their interests were met and they left and we had to clean the whole mess !

Really ? Any prove of that claim or just talking out of behind ?

Plenty ... Look up the " Civil War in Afghanistan " section in Wikipedia and you will find many references to the Pakistani Govt initiatives to finally bring stability to the country ... We asked the warlords to sit down , talk and try and settle their differences ... We could do only this much and we didn't fail , they failed themselves ... Was the world even interested in Afghanistan after the end of Cold War ?

Random gibberish ai'nt gonna get you nowhere ...

Yes , I am sure

 

[SamranAli]

i laugh reading the word india here, india had not any role nor will have, its only there because of americans, once america gone india back to india.

 

[SamantK]

Which one ? That USSR was seen as a bad guy ? I have already answered every single of your queries in that debate and I am not really interested in repeating same things again and again ...

I didn't ... You just provided me some 3-4 links on a never proven theory ... Doesn't make it a fact

Regarding Pakistan not wanting strategic depth rather than the fear of bigot Zia who used Jehad for nefarious purposes.. not fear..


Those are good links, I can provide you many but alas, does it matter when you have formed an opinion without quoting your sources.. that my dear is not how you discuss and put so many assertions- back them up with proof else you just are brainwashed and you don't know it

 

[Secur]

Regarding Pakistan not wanting strategic depth rather than the fear of bigot Zia who used Jehad for nefarious purposes.. not fear..


Those are good links, I can provide you many but alas, does it matter when you have formed an opinion without quoting your sources.. that my dear is not how you discuss and put so many assertions- back them up with proof else you just are brainwashed and you don't know it

A questionable and never proven theory ... Impossible for obvious incapability of my country to seek any strategic depth and lack of any support and military infrastructure in that unstable , hostile and war torn Afghanistan ... So unless you are able to get me a quote from any senior General of Pakistan Army regarding such a thing or point me to any Pakistani base anywhere in that country , it will remain what it is - a mere assumption ... Why you have mentioned only Zia again ? ... Not only he , but others used religion for their aims ... Zia was just protecting Pakistan and its interests ... What sort of hypocrisy is that ? Where are the others who provided covert and open support and money for the whole thing ? The aims of USSR were uncertain ...

Good links based on never proven theory ? Sorry ! ... I have seen many more like these from different Western sources and hence asked you to check that thread which debunks this hard coded myth in your brains ...

 

[ajtr]

i laugh reading the word india here, india had not any role nor will have, its only there because of americans, once america gone india back to india.

Well india has high opinion about itsef in everything but then when its comes to reality everything falls flat on its face on the ground be it afghanistan or be it hifi weaponry indian labs claim to be making for decades.