The big three who can help save Afghanistan

[SamantK]

Is this even a thing to talk about , mate ? He was a military dictator and hence tried to enhance the defense of his country ...

No , you are wrong ! The entire Western anti communist bloc and Arabs were responsible for that " manufactured fear " at that time , you are conviently skipping all others and putting the blame on one man ... Seriously !

At least you agree that he was a military dictator.. He tried to enhance the defence but did mistakes in doing that, huge mistakes.

The history goes against the notion that he was scared into taking onto soviet.. His cabinet advised him not to interfere in the war.. And it was the then DG ISI Akhtar Abdur Rahman who gave him the idea to use Mujhaideen. Operation Cyclone was already underway, Pakistan enhanced it and added fuel into the fire..

Leave Kashmir for another thread or else be ready for a troll/flame war here ... Your country wasn't a saint either , fuelling insurgencies in Pakistan ...

India at that time did not, please get you facts clear..

Well , majority of the Pakistanis still hold that believe that only army with a stick can put the country into the right track and its even justified given the amount of corruption , mismanagement and screwing the country during civilian rule ... PA's not the only force in the world with significant influence on the country and politics and I think rightly so !

Army has businesses of its own what is bigger corruption of an profession military organization that this?

Not really , the history of Afghanistan if you read it in an unbiased way would tell a more sinister story , War is business for those people , the day you realize it , the day you will understand why the country has been messed up for the last 200 years and even before that ... Actually , Pakistan wasn't ready for US simply abandoning leaving us to clean the whole mess ... Multiple sanctions were imposed on us after that period ... " Strategic Depth " is a myth not supported by any credible source or any Pakistani politician or General making any comment about that ...

It should have known its limts before jumping into a war, your DG wanted Kabul "to burn" and Zia went for it..

Would you expect them to say it openly? Read on these..

Here read upon these
Strategic Depth, Strategic Assets and the Changing Dynamics of Pakistan’s Kashmir Game Plan
Musharraf's Last Jam | Foreign Policy
Benazir the Matchless | BaltimoreChronicle.com
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-8-2004_pg7_33

I do not think he ever gave any legitimacy to TTP , he was just ready for peace talks with them which the US badmouthed Pakistan for in the past but at the moment , it is doing it itself and asking for assistance from Pakistan ...

Peace talks mean showing that there is something to talk, some concern which can be addressed, some concessions can be made.. you do not talk to terrorist like that.. you give them legitimacy..

 

[Serpentine]

A Taliban dominated Afghanistan is much more dangerous for Iran than a government that is in U.S line.Because those Taliban nutjobs don't care about the people,they just want to enforce their own religious will on the country and people.But a U.S supported government will at least try to rebuild Afghanistan,in which it heavily needs Iran's help,the same as India and even Pakistan if it's interested.
I don't still understand why Pakistan supported the Taliban government in 90s,can any Pakistani member elaborate?

 

[KingMamba]

Let's see - going by their recent performance I must say they are pretty effective and will definitely get better in the future. The confidence is also improving by the results that they are able to notch up and are asking for complete control of the security. Let's see whether the training provided by us has been any good too. The internal attacks are a shame and will be taken care of in time...i hope.



Plenty with India too, till they become operational I guess we will need to fund them.

Their recent performances have been attacks on ISAF and suspension of joint ops hardly confidence building.

 

[SamantK]

Their recent performances have been attacks on ISAF and suspension of joint ops hardly confidence building.

Yeah, another strategy being used by Talibs to force US to come to their terms..

 

[KingMamba]

The anti NA gang of CIA, Pakistan, Taliban and Arabs have fallen apart from their objective and bigger issues have taken over.

The chances of revival of NA depends on Russian initiative. India and Iran by default supports them, so does CAS.

But a conflict between Taliban - NA clash is highly unlikely now.

I dont think there is plan to revive, atleast based on the news that have been coming around the issues so far.

CIA was never anti NA they chose to not get involved, it was Taliban who took them on by themselves. Pakistan, KSA, and UAE only recognized Taliban rule.

Yeah, another strategy being used by Talibs to force US to come to their terms..

Well it is working right now.

A Taliban dominated Afghanistan is much more dangerous for Iran than a government that is in U.S line.Because those Taliban nutjobs don't care about the people,they just want to enforce their own religious will on the country and people.But a U.S supported government will at least try to rebuild Afghanistan,in which it heavily needs Iran's help,the same as India and even Pakistan if it's interested.
I don't still understand why Pakistan supported the Taliban government in 90s,can any Pakistani member elaborate?

They were Pathan and they had taken control of Afghanistan which was before a warlord state.

 

[SamantK]

Well it is working right now.

Only till US stays invested in large troop presence, after that they will hardly finds blues to kill

 

[Secur]

The US got busy in other parts and Pakistan got busy using its proxies to take over what it figured as warlords and taking out its opposition in Afg - the drug money controlled by the Taliban bought the weapons for the run over of the devastated country and the fine dream of living under the freedom fighters became a nightmare for the Afghan people. Transforming the freedom fighters to become nation runners installing their brand of Talibani justice was a master stroke. But the Frankenstein messed around in the wrong places and brought the WOT to the region and to top that a number of newer factions went out of control.

This obviously goes to prove that Pakistan is incapable of handling Afghanistan on its own and a group of nations is what is required to bring back some semblance of decency to Afghanistan and its working in parts and would have been successful if Pakistan could have not sheltered the Taliban or the Haqqani's.

Pakistan claims it cannot close its porous borders and cannot take on the Taliban and its various off shoots so what's the solution for that?

We are on the same wavelength that controlling Afghanistan is not Pakistan's cup of tea so ideally Pakistan should get out of the way and let bigger countries try their hand at it and Pakistan can give a helping hand if it can.

Exactly what did the US get busy into ? Care to explain ... After the end of Soviet war and dissolution of USSR , the US of A was more than free to try to rebuild Afghanistan because the world had become uni-polar and there was no one to oppose it , the US simply had no problems to take care of , the Cold war had ended ... So what did the Americans do ? They simply abandoned Afghanistan to rot because their mission was accomplished and interests well taken care of instead of trying to rebuild it , they should have installed a proxy Govt maybe and an army like ANA like they doing now , did they do so ? ... Sanctions were slapped on Pakistan again ... What choice did our Govt have instead of negotiating / compromising between different warlords in Afghanistan and of course just like any other state taking care of its interests ? The Talibans were ideal candidates at that time , since the NA was funded by India ( another part your lot conveniently skips ) and considered anti-Pakistani by the Govt ... Yes , we thought they could one day lead the country properly and unlike some at least we tried ! The Frankenstein was created by the US but now being blamed on Pakistan , ironic isn't it ?

Let me tell you one thing ... Pakistan has decades of experience dealing in that country and if we accept that we cant handle that country and bring peace , prosperity and stability to Afghanistan then believe it or not , none else can ! The Americans learned it the hard way asking Islamabad again to participate in the Afghan peace process , the same people who earlier spit venom against us for finding a way out of this mess by starting peace talks ... We all saw the results of Bonn Conference and Chicago summit without the Pakistani participation which essentially became an all expense paid trip to " sit , talk , leave " sort of thing with zero results !

You talk of the Durand Line ? Do you really have any idea about the geography and condition of that particular region ? I bet you do not ! So before talking of the impossible sealing of the border , research a little ...

Yes it isn't , but if it isn't then its nobody's cup of tea ... Why exactly should we get out of the way ? ... Yes , we have seen the progress of " bigger " countries in Afghanistan from 2001 till present and it was enough of an eye opener ... If a International Coalition force couldn't control the country in a decade , what hope do you have for ANA which is itself infiltrated by various militias ? ... Actually , you would ask us to give a hand otherwise all your efforts will be in vain ...

Yeah, another strategy being used by Talibs to force US to come to their terms..

Actually , its the mighty US of A keen , eager or shall i say anxious and desperate to negotiate with Taliban and get out of that country ...

 

[Secur]

At least you agree that he was a military dictator.. He tried to enhance the defence but did mistakes in doing that, huge mistakes.

The history goes against the notion that he was scared into taking onto soviet.. His cabinet advised him not to interfere in the war.. And it was the then DG ISI Akhtar Abdur Rahman who gave him the idea to use Mujhaideen. Operation Cyclone was already underway, Pakistan enhanced it and added fuel into the fire..

Army has businesses of its own what is bigger corruption of an profession military organization that this?

It should have known its limts before jumping into a war, your DG wanted Kabul "to burn" and Zia went for it..

Would you expect them to say it openly? Read on these..

Peace talks mean showing that there is something to talk, some concern which can be addressed, some concessions can be made.. you do not talk to terrorist like that.. you give them legitimacy..

Yes , he was ... What is there to agree or disagree on a fact ? The term " dictator " doesn't necessarily means a bad person ...

Who was scared to take on the Soviets ? Americans perhaps since they never engaged them directly ? Let me remind you of the Soviet jets Pakistan shot down who intruded in our airspace without any fear ... You are repeating the same things again and again ...

The business of army in Pakistan is/must be larger than that of a professional fighting force because the corrupt politicians to say the least aren't able to run the country properly ... PA assists them and when things get out of the control , takes matter in its own hands ... Nobody's buying that corruption argument ...

I said before " Caught between a devil and a deep sea " ... We had to jump in the war and unintended consequences followed ...
Nobody wanted " Kabul " to burn which was already burning at that time ... A couple of articles from International sources basing the whole story on a never proven theory of " Strategic Depth " ... I have read and researched all ... The plan if even for the sake of argument ever considered was never put into action ... Prove ? There's no such thing as Pakistani military base in that country ...

Yes , US is doing peace talks too ... What would you call it ? Will you deny ? How is it wrong when the state of Pakistan or any Pakistani politician tries to do it but suddenly becomes legitimate when US does the same ? Hypocrisy much ?

 

[SamantK]

Yes , he was ... What is there to agree or disagree on a fact ? The term " dictator " doesn't necessarily means a bad person

his polcies were the ones which hurt Pakistan he most.. I certainly do not care how he as a person was..

Who was scared to take on the Soviets ? Americans perhaps since they never engaged them directly ? Let me remind you of the Soviet jets Pakistan shot down who intruded in our airspace without any fear ... You are repeating the same things again and again ...

Dude, read my sentence, I said he was not scared about Soviet capturing Pakistan.. "notion against"

Read slowly..

The business of army in Pakistan is/must be larger than that of a professional fighting force because the corrupt politicians to say the least aren't able to run the country properly ... PA assists them and when things get out of the control , takes matter in its own hands ... Nobody's buying that corruption argument ...

You are wrong, that is the reason Pakistan has been mishandled.. Mandate of an Army is to defend the nation not to make foreign policy or how the country should be run.. That is on the civilian govt to do, it takes time to root out corruption, you expect that in 5 years all the corruption can be rooted out?

Why has not the army taken action against TTP yet?

I said before " Caught between a devil and a deep sea " ... We had to jump in the war and unintended consequences followed ...

And I said before, that is the propaganda fed to the people, Pakistani army did it many times, it got fluent in distorting facts..

Nobody wanted " Kabul " to burn which was already burning at that time ...

Read this book Silent soldier: The man behind the Afghan Jehad by Mohammad Yousaf

A couple of articles from International sources basing the whole story on a never proven theory of " Strategic Depth " ... I have read and researched all ... The plan if even for the sake of argument ever considered was never put into action ... Prove ? There's no such thing as Pakistani military base in that country ...

Tell me where and what have you read and researched.. certainly I have not seen one reference yet of your claims..

Yes , US is doing peace talks too ... What would you call it ? Will you deny ? How is it wrong when the state of Pakistan or any Pakistani politician tries to do it but suddenly becomes legitimate when US does the same ? Hypocrisy much ?

Dude, it is about your country, why do you have to compare yourself with what US is doing? Why dont you compare the development of you country to US if you want to, which will actually help you..

 

[Secur]

his polcies were the ones which hurt Pakistan he most.. I certainly do not care how he as a person was..

Dude, read my sentence, I said he was not scared about Soviet capturing Pakistan.. "notion against"

Read slowly..


You are wrong, that is the reason Pakistan has been mishandled.. Mandate of an Army is to defend the nation not to make foreign policy or how the country should be run.. That is on the civilian govt to do, it takes time to root out corruption, you expect that in 5 years all the corruption can be rooted out?

Why has not the army taken action against TTP yet?

And I said before, that is the propaganda fed to the people, Pakistani army did it many times, it got fluent in distorting facts..



Read this book Silent soldier: The man behind the Afghan Jehad by Mohammad Yousaf

Tell me where and what have you read and researched.. certainly I have not seen one reference yet of your claims..

Dude, it is about your country, why do you have to compare yourself with what US is doing? Why dont you compare the development of you country to US if you want to, which will actually help you..

There's no denial ... But your insistence on using the word " dictator " necessarily as bad is what I replied to ...

Well to be honest , the fear was always there of USSR coming to the warm waters ... Whether they would have done that - one can only speculate ...

Well , if past and present political leadership is any indication then I am not wrong to say the least ... Yes it is , they are doing it exceptionally well and it never hurts if they take the wheel when the corrupt politicians lose control ... I know it shouldn't be like this but what to do , such is the way it is ... They were given a lot of time to mend their ways , sad to say they never learned any lesson from it ... No , I do not expect anyone to root out corruption in 5 years but the democratic rule was much longer than that ...

Are you kidding me ? Are you saying that PA hasn't taken any action against TTP ? ... Do me a favor , read the entire article on " War in North West Pakistan " on Wiki and compare the situation then and now with refugees returning to their areas and situation getting normal ... I honestly didn't expect a comment like that from you ... My army has been more successful than their Western counterparts in controlling the Taliban menace , taking control of areas formerly under their control , rehabilitating the refugees and etc ...

So , we had any other choice apart from taking part in the war against Soviets after the fear of them trying to invade our country next ? Alright , what was it ?

Discussed again and again , Kabul was burning since decades , what more fuel could we add to the fire and why ?

Here on this very forum , there's a thread - sticky one if my memory doesn't deceive me that you may want to check ...

Yes it is and we are doing what is in our interests ... Yes , there are concerns that need to be addressed , compromises to be made as stated in our earlier post ... With the US planning to abandon Afghanistan again , we really need to get the peace talks started again ... You haven't answered my question yet ... How does it become a crime when Pakistan negotiates with Taliban but suddenly legitimate when US does the same ? WHY ? Hypocrisy ? The country which has a declared policy of " not negotiating with terrorist " ... Please spare this random development argument , you know what we are talking about ...

 

[Hashshāshīn]

off topic- but these talibani people are totally ***@ole.. means just look at them.. they can not afford shoes but can afford machine guns, RPG etc. They think music and tv is dangerous but they carry explosive in their pockets

You know why they have machine guns? because they are provided to them by CIA.

 

[Hashshāshīn]

A Taliban dominated Afghanistan is much more dangerous for Iran than a government that is in U.S line.Because those Taliban nutjobs don't care about the people,they just want to enforce their own religious will on the country and people.But a U.S supported government will at least try to rebuild Afghanistan,in which it heavily needs Iran's help,the same as India and even Pakistan if it's interested.
I don't still understand why Pakistan supported the Taliban government in 90s,can any Pakistani member elaborate?

Because they were Pakistan's production. Pakistan created them to fight off the Soviets, and of course, the Taliban in 90's were pro-Pakistan too. It was better for Pakistan to have a Pro neighbor than a neutral one.

 

[KillTech]

There's no denial ... But your insistence on using the word " dictator " necessarily as bad is what I replied to ...

Well to be honest , the fear was always there of USSR coming to the warm waters ... Whether they would have done that - one can only speculate ...

Well , if past and present political leadership is any indication then I am not wrong to say the least ... Yes it is , they are doing it exceptionally well and it never hurts if they take the wheel when the corrupt politicians lose control ... I know it shouldn't be like this but what to do , such is the way it is ... They were given a lot of time to mend their ways , sad to say they never learned any lesson from it ... No , I do not expect anyone to root out corruption in 5 years but the democratic rule was much longer than that ...

Are you kidding me ? Are you saying that PA hasn't taken any action against TTP ? ... Do me a favor , read the entire article on " War in North West Pakistan " on Wiki and compare the situation then and now with refugees returning to their areas and situation getting normal ... I honestly didn't expect a comment like that from you ... My army has been more successful than their Western counterparts in controlling the Taliban menace , taking control of areas formerly under their control , rehabilitating the refugees and etc ...

So , we had any other choice apart from taking part in the war against Soviets after the fear of them trying to invade our country next ? Alright , what was it ?

Discussed again and again , Kabul was burning since decades , what more fuel could we add to the fire and why ?

Here on this very forum , there's a thread - sticky one if my memory doesn't deceive me that you may want to check ...

Yes it is and we are doing what is in our interests ... Yes , there are concerns that need to be addressed , compromises to be made as stated in our earlier post ... With the US planning to abandon Afghanistan again , we really need to get the peace talks started again ... You haven't answered my question yet ... How does it become a crime when Pakistan negotiates with Taliban but suddenly legitimate when US does the same ? WHY ? Hypocrisy ? The country which has a declared policy of " not negotiating with terrorist " ... Please spare this random development argument , you know what we are talking about ...

We never had a stable democracy, 10 continuous years is the longest.. This military has screwed out country

PA should kill them all, today they have shot the poor 14 year kid.. Drones are doing with so much casualty which we should be doing.. we might prolly succeed..

 

[The Vicious Kind]

Check with the Iranians and Russia they would love to get involved, Iran has major plans for Afghanistan and beyond with its Chabahar port and rail links connecting majority Afghanistan - Russia oh yes they would want to put a stop to terrorists and the drugs that make their way into Russia.

And does Iran's plans feature Permanent US bases or the interest US has to the vast mineral riches that afghanistan has .So basically what your trying to say is that both US and Iran (mortal enemies) would not only peacefully coexist but also help development in afghanistan in the name of northern alliance ,Without conflicting with each other's interest.?

And the Russia's problems with drugs is bigger then US strategic presence in the region?

You better read up! its called the new great game in Afghanistan !

 

[MilSpec]

Northen Alliance again? Were they not beaten like dogs before? Today Taliban are much more stronger then they were at the time they defeated Indian supported Northern Alliance. Another Phoka Shot!

Lets burst you bubble, Northern alliance commanded by the great, Ahmed Shah Masoud, handed over the biggest defeat to taliban (with it's pakistani commanders embedded fighting units) in its all glory in kabul. Thats what NA is!

There was direct military assistance to the taliban scumbags from pakistan, do not forget your history, do not wish for direct Indian involvement.

Nah , there's plenty of matter available on what happened during that era after the Soviet war ended and civil war returned to Afghanistan and I think I can deduct the most logical interpretations from that ...

Again , all the Americans and Arabs who dragged us into this war in the first place are conveniently skipped by you , the people who made us believe that USSR would try to invade Pakistan next for access to warm waters - not sure if it would have happened or not ... So my country was merely acting for its own interests , caught between the devil and the deep sea ... Zia was a no one without the support of US and the Arab money and fighters ... Except for military assistance , we didn't do any better in economy in the 80's ... Do you not think we would purchased more weapons with a developing economy instead of this useless FMS which came with an unending war ? ... There's a reason why 90's is called " Lost Decade " for PAF ... The state of Pakistan from that day still bears the burden of Afghan refugees ... Islamization of Pakistan in that era is something that people still loath Zia for , contrary to one of your most popular beliefs ...

Useless for this thread , whatever Pak Army owns isn't the topic ...

My interpretation is the same , Afghanistan is something beyond anyone's control for the foreseeable future ...

Another one of your misconceptions / a popular myth ... IK is a politician like any other so my answer becomes very obvious

The difference between taliban and mujhhideen is just as the difference between kullah omar and Ahmed Shah Massoud.