The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

[Anwar2]

Why should we be on the defensive? The Government of Pakistan did not sponsor the terror attack on Bombay.
Pakistan has done more than any other nation on earth to fight the American war on terror. Now we are expected to fight for India too. Then India too must contribute to the effort through demilitarization of Kashmir. 195 innocent peoploe lost their lives in Bombay, and so are the estimated 80,000 Kashmiris who have lost their lives in the past 20 years.

 

[fatman17]

Why should we be on the defensive? The Government of Pakistan did not sponsor the terror attack on Bombay.
Pakistan has done more than any other nation on earth to fight the American war on terror. Now we are expected to fight for India too. Then India too must contribute to the effort through demilitarization of Kashmir. 195 innocent peoploe lost their lives in Bombay, and so are the estimated 80,000 Kashmiris who have lost their lives in the past 20 years.

i dont have any disagreement with what u say but we have to be honest with ourselves. our policy of aiding and abetting the jihadi groups has become a huge problem. we thought by aiding them indirectly they would not attack their benefactors and would toe the line. well the opposite has happened. i liken it to a runaway train hurtling towards us and we have no quick fix for it.

the writ of the govt has to be established in all areas which are part of pakistan.

we can shout all we want that we r not involved in these terrorist attacks, but the international community will not buy-in until we act strongly and clean up our act. skeptism abounds!

our country is under immense pressure at this time (internally and externally). how many more fronts we want to open up!

we need to co-operate with india (or for that matter any country) and if the evidence is there that stateless elements are involved, we should act decisively. having said that india itself is not so squeaky-clean as it lets itself to be. they need to also stop interfearing in our affairs. this tit-for-tat has got to stop!

 

[Anwar2]

Dear fatman17:

Sponsorship of Jehadi groups began as foreign / strategic policy compulsions; (i) Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, when Pakistan found itself between the double Soviet-Indian pincers. (ii) the Festering wound of Kashmir, where Indian Army perpetuated rapacious attrocities killing an estimated 80,000 people since 1982.

Both Pakistani and Afghan Jehadi groups were instrumental in the the defeat and ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union.

Pakistan government lost control when our political governments in the 90's "transferred" their control to the US. Taleban were originally raised with overt US support and financing, basically to give Iran a run for its money on its Northern border. The US continued to support them till early 2001 (Taleban Consulate in Queens, NY paid for by the US Govt remained functional till June 2001!

Government of Pakistan finally lost the writ after its blind and slavish u-turn on Afghanistan and Kashmir in 2002.

Pakistan government resorted to an irrational policy of regaining its writ through US directed operations on its own territory. Finally the 3rd of motion in physics took over, ""for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"".

Pakistan is for sure under tremendous pressure; the US known fully well that they get their objectives without firing a shot through bullying of our weakling military and political leaders in Islamabad.

We will not be under pressure if the US fully understands that the root causes of extremist mentality have to be addressed. On Kashmir the US / NATO have to assert on India to respect the UN Resolutions, and hold a plabescite a la East Timor. On Afghnaitsn they have to declare clear objectives and a time table.

Non State players have been legitimately used by the US government to further its policy objectives. They could be in the form of Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet occupation, Taleban in the 90's and the Rose, Velvet, Orange and multi-colored "Revolutions" to setup pro-western governments in Georgia, Czech Republic and Ukraine. Therefore there is nothing intrinsically sinister about this phenomenon.

 

[parihaka]

And just can't get beyond the personal insults when cornered can you? First it was the absurd 'soldier' comment, and now its my location. My nation has its warts and flawed policies and all - but atleast I don't go around pretending like my **** doesn't stink like you and that closet racist Parihaka and his 'Western Civilization' crap do.

Well, goodness me AgNoStIc MuSliM, posts on this forum do keep disappearing don't they? So, care to explain?

 

[fatman17]

Non State players have been legitimately used by the US government to further its policy objectives. They could be in the form of Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet occupation, Taleban in the 90's and the Rose, Velvet, Orange and multi-colored "Revolutions" to setup pro-western governments in Georgia, Czech Republic and Ukraine. Therefore there is nothing intrinsically sinister about this phenomenon

not sure of the taliban being supported by the US. on the others the key difference is that these non-state elements never went against their sponsor which is the opposite case with organisations like LeT and JeM.

 

[S-2]

"Pakistan government lost control when our political governments in the 90's "transferred" their control to the US. Taleban were originally raised with overt US support and financing, basically to give Iran a run for its money on its Northern border. The US continued to support them till early 2001 (Taleban Consulate in Queens, NY paid for by the US Govt remained functional till June 2001!"

This eminates from your fourth point of contact and is beyond smelling badly. It stinks. "Consulate"? Formal recognition? Please provide the dates in which we formally recognized the taliban regime of Afghanistan and the date in which that recognition was broken.

You and I both know it didn't happen.

Here's what did happen. Following the Soviet withdrawal, the ISI and GoP threw it's support right behind Hekmatyar which led NOWHERE. Desperate to displace Rabbani/Massoud, et al, the ISI LATCHED onto a populist rebellion gaining momentum out of the south in Kandahar- the taliban. The arabs and them tossed in with the taliban and rode that pony to the winner's circle- if such existed in civil war torn Afghanistan.

Three nations. ONLY three recognized the taliban gov't- KSA, U.A.E. and Pakistan. Find the U.S. gov't dollars spent to EXPLICITLY support the taliban regime and you've a real coup. Until then, you're terribly far off the mark.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, goodness me AgNoStIc MuSliM, posts on this forum do keep disappearing don't they? So, care to explain?

Explain my opinion of you anymore than is apparent from my comment? No.

That particular back and forth is over and done with.

Stick to the thread subject please.

 

[parihaka]

Explain my opinion of you anymore than is apparent from my comment? No.

That particular back and forth is over and done with.

Stick to the thread subject please.

I am sticking to the subject AgNoStIc MuSliM, it was after all you who raised these issues in this very thread.
I had written more detailed questions to your assertions but your friend keysersoze saw fit to first soft and then perma-delete them, out of embarrassment on your behalf I expect?

I'll reiterate them here for you.

In the one paragraph you berate S-2 for perceived personal attacks and then promptly proceed to slander me in direct contradiction of your previous sentence and more importantly your own forum rules, despite the fact I hadn't even posted on that thread nor indeed on this forum for quite some time prior.
I'll post them here for you

Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.

Ranting is prohibited
A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and are helpful, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.

Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated.

As the only interaction we've had prior to this has been on WAB I can only conclude you were too scared to continue any form of discussion there and instead had to run here to make your slurs.
While I found most of your arguments false at WAB I had regarded that you at least had integrity and were an honest broker but alas, I see I was wrong.

So, what's it to be AgNoStIc MuSliM?
Put up, delete, run away, or just continue trans-forum trolling?

 

[Awesome]

I am sticking to the subject AgNoStIc MuSliM, it was after all you who raised these issues in this very thread.
I had written more detailed questions to your assertions but your friend keysersoze saw fit to first soft and then perma-delete them, out of embarrassment on your behalf I expect?

I'll reiterate them here for you.

In the one paragraph you berate S-2 for perceived personal attacks and then promptly proceed to slander me in direct contradiction of your previous sentence and more importantly your own forum rules, despite the fact I hadn't even posted on that thread nor indeed on this forum for quite some time prior.
I'll post them here for you


As the only interaction we've had prior to this has been on WAB I can only conclude you were too scared to continue any form of discussion there and instead had to run here to make your slurs.
While I found most of your arguments false at WAB I had regarded that you at least had integrity and were an honest broker but alas, I see I was wrong.

So, what's it to be AgNoStIc MuSliM?
Put up, delete, run away, or just continue trans-forum trolling?

Pfft,

Pari, you pick up fights and then show your ugly mug in 2-3 months and complain why you're being dissed around? If you got a grudge to grind, do it through PMs, stop crappin all over my board, be a freakin professional. Least of all you shouldn't be baiting anyone of being too scared of you! How you reacted to a little aggression is there in the public domain for all to see.

As the moderator explained, now get back on topic and utilize the PMs.

 

[parihaka]

Pfft,

Pari, you pick up fights and then show your ugly mug in 2-3 months and complain why you're being dissed around? If you got a grudge to grind, do it through PMs, stop crappin all over my board, be a freakin professional. Least of all you shouldn't be baiting anyone of being too scared of you! How you reacted to a little aggression is there in the public domain for all to see.

As the moderator explained, now get back on topic and utilize the PMs.

And where to see is that 'reaction' pray tell Asim? There's obviously a private discourse concerning what you view as my opinions that you gentlemen have been discussing, I'd love to know exactly what basis you have.
As for professionalism, tell that to your American chum AgNoStIc MuSliM who decided to publicly slander me against your own rules in a forum I hadn't been attending.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Parihaka,

My previous comment stands. I'm not interested in your baiting and trolling - stick to the thread subject please.

On the issue of 'proving my arguments false', I disagree, and you are welcome to pick up on this forum, in the relevant thread, where we left off.

 

[parihaka]

Parihaka,

My previous comment stands. I'm not interested in your baiting and trolling - stick to the thread subject please.

On the issue of 'proving my arguments false', I disagree, and you are welcome to pick up on this forum, in the relevant thread, where we left off.

Actually the only time we've ever talked is on threads on other forums AgNoStIc MuSliM, never on this forum, your getting confused.
Irrelevant anyway.
I've had a chat with Asim and asked him to please pass on my comments to you.
Otherwise, we consider this matter closed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually the only time we've ever talked is on threads on other forums AgNoStIc MuSliM, never on this forum, your getting confused.

I am not confused about the forum we ended our last discussion on.

I deliberately suggested that the discussion could be continued on this forum (if you desired to), since, at this point, I have no intention of posting on the WAB.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One last thing - regardless of my opinions about you, I shouldn't have expressed them as I did in my exchange with S-2.

Call it a bit of a 'in the heat of the debate' thing if you will.

Apologies on that count, and best of luck with whatever.

Wanted to post this before I checked in with Asim on any 'nasties' you may have left.

 

[fatman17]

The Pakistan Problem: Success in FATA Depends on Aid to Civilians

Ahmed Humayun | 08 Dec 2008

World Politics Review

In August, the Pakistani army launched a full scale military offensive in the Bajaur agency of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). Since then, fierce clashes have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of militants and the destruction of key Taliban strongholds. This forceful demonstration of Pakistani resolve is a positive change from past efforts. However, military operations will fail if they undermine the single most important principle for victory: winning the support of the local population. And currently Pakistan is not aiding the war-ravaged Pashtun tribes of the FATA.

There is no doubt that significant force is required to eliminate the insurgent sanctuaries that infest Pakistan's tribal areas. The fighting thus far has revealed an extraordinarily sophisticated militant infrastructure: Subterranean passages connect heavily fortified compounds, and jihadists utilize heavy weaponry that includes anti-tank missiles.

But the eradication of some Taliban bases will be a Pyrrhic victory if the Pashtun populace perceives the assault to be against them, rather than against the extremists. An estimated 7 million Pashtuns live in the FATA, in addition to 28 million in the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) and 15 million in neighboring Afghanistan. The tribesmen viscerally distrust federal intervention -- and not without cause. Unlike the four provinces of Pakistan, the FATA is administered by undemocratically appointed autocrats with colonial-era powers; development indicators in the region rank among the world's worst.

Prolonged fighting has shattered Pashtun homes and livelihoods. Up to 300,000 people have fled the FATA in order to avoid being caught in the crossfire. Refugees are scattered across NWFP and eastern Afghanistan, desperately seeking shelter in improvised camps with no electricity or running water. Women find it difficult to maintain veiled segregation, a deep affront to conservative tribal sensibilities.

It will not take much more for the government to lose any lingering support for the counterinsurgency operations altogether. Troublingly, nearly four months into the military assault, government representatives admit that plans for basic health and educational services -- let alone large scale reconstruction and economic development -- have yet to get off the ground.

To prevail against the jihadists, Pakistan will have to integrate humanitarian assistance and long-term development into the counterinsurgency strategy.

The immediate, short-term priority needs to be ensuring that the refugees' most elementary needs -- shelter, food, water, clothing and electricity -- are attended to, particularly as winter descends. According to the United Nations, relief agencies have barely obtained half the funds needed to help the displaced persons. The United States and other donors should prioritize the fulfillment of funding shortfalls.

In the long term, reconstruction and economic development in the FATA has to be pursued with the same vigor as military incursions. The FATA Civil Secretariat, the principal Pakistani agency responsible for development in the tribal areas, has a multi-year plan that provides a useful agenda for action. The job programs envisioned in USAID's $750 million aid package for the FATA are also invaluable.

However, existing programs have to adjust to the grim reality that many refugees may not be able to return to their homes anytime soon. Fighting in the FATA is far from over and reconstruction and development in several areas will be delayed -- in some cases for years to come. The Pakistani government and international partners should think about feasible medium-term plans to integrate the refugees in the settled areas of NWFP.

Realizing these goals will be difficult given the challenging security conditions on the ground. Aware of the impact of humanitarian assistance in swaying Pashtun hearts and minds, the insurgents are steadily escalating attacks on aid workers. Therefore, increased security for aid personnel is critical. As part of this effort, the Pakistani military will have to participate in the actual provision of assistance in the most insecure areas.

There is time yet to prevent the Pashtuns from becoming permanently estranged from the rest of Pakistan. The raising of anti-Taliban tribal militias in recent weeks shows growing awareness among many Pashtuns of the threat posed to them by the insurgents. But if the government continues to communicate primarily in the language of guns and bombs, then the struggle against extremism may soon be perceived as a war against the Pashtun people. And neither Islamabad nor Washington can afford for this to happen.

Ahmed Humayun is a Joe S. Nye Jr. intern at the Center for a New American Security, and spent the summer of 2007 in the FATA and NWFP researching Islamist politics.