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The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

In terms of our own insurgency, it is another mismanagement of the country fueled by misunderstandings and external fingerings. Musharraf was good at taking troops into battle, at fighting and yes he had leadership. But I am keen to believe he isn't too bright in most other areas of running a country. Otherwise he'd still be in power.
 
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"This is because the US is creating deep rifts in society by mis-labeling and inciting civil tension."

Puh-leez!:disagree:

Deep rifts created by us? Certainly true that these rifts exist. We're the late-comers, though, when it comes to stirring those pots and they were already boiling over when we arrived in 2001.

Nope, Kharian Beast, the problem may more properly lie with Pakistanis who've no interest in the rest of Afghanistan besides the Pashtu. Damned near none. No leverage either. That means you're all for a rump Pashtu state that shatters the nation and many here happily work towards those ends. THAT's "...mis-labeling and inciting civil tension."

It also removes any notion of Pakistan being a good-faith partner to the Afghan gov't and people. Matters ring of disingenuousness when those like yourself speak otherwise.
 
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S-2 says :

Nope, Kharian Beast, the problem may more properly lie with Pakistanis who've no interest in the rest of Afghanistan besides the Pashtu. Damned near none. No leverage either. That means you're all for a rump Pashtu state that shatters the nation and many here happily work towards those ends.

This is one example of creating rifts. Actually, Pakistan wants a unified Afghanistan, but it is not keen in seeing US backed puppets using the entire world to conduct ethnic cleansing. Nobody actually wants to see a "Pashtu state" but according to your military it is in their interests.

ARMED FORCES JOURNAL - Blood borders - June 2006
 
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"Actually, Pakistan wants a unified Afghanistan, but it is not keen in seeing US backed puppets using the entire world to conduct ethnic cleansing."

No. Actually that's you attempting to conflate the desires and expressed observations of the Pakistani gov't with your own. You shouldn't do that and, instead, post a link to this observation foreign minister or his spokeman.

OTOH, were it you private observation (and it is) you'd certainly be keen upon seeing your own puppets installed in Afghanistan.

1,000,000-1,500,000 died in the Soviet-Afghan War. 400,000 or more in the ensuing eleven-twelve year ongoing civil war. Nobody has come close to those numbers and Afghanistan has never garnered so much global attention-long overdue.

Were it not for so many old guard of all sides, serious change could be possible. The taliban and N.A. both, along with various pashtu sympathizers/syncophants in Pakistan share that burden for holding at bay the progress deemed necessary by the rest of mankind-beginning with the U.N. and trickling down to the 41 NATO and non-NATO allies who are there NOW as well as the officially-expressed desires of the GoP.

From your 2006-07 Ministry of Foreign Affairs yearbook

Ministry of Foreign Affairs 2006-07, Gov't of Pakistan-

"No country has a greater stake than Pakistan in peace, stability and prosperity of Afghanistan. We supported every initiative that could help the Afghans to achieve national reconciliation and rebuild their country. We have also contributed to the reconstruction efforts in Afghanistan. It remains our policy not to allow our territory to be used by elements that want to destabilize Afghanistan. Afghanistan has continued to suffer ever since the Soviet invasion of that country almost 30 years ago. The situation in Afghanistan has created conditions of instability in the area with an adverse impact on Pakistan.

Our tribal areas have been affected by the Afghan jehad which has generated forces of extremism. In recent years, some elements of Al-Qaeda have escaped to our border areas placing a heavy responsibility on us to counter this challenge. We have deployed a large number of our forces. The international community has also expectations from us in this regard. While we can differ on the means to counter these forces, there can be no difference in the objectives because we all reject terrorism and extremism. Pakistan as a developing country needs conditions of peace and security for its own economic, social and political development. We are cooperating fully to counter the common challenges. The recent Joint Peace Jirga between Afghanistan and Pakistan in Kabul registered some success in that direction. Pakistan is also cooperating with G-8 countries in building a peaceful and stable Afghanistan."


Oh yeah, Ralph Peters- I had to giggle at that one-

"...according to your military it is in their interests."

Again, no. According to only Ralph Peters, Major, (rtd.) U.S.A. A former army officer-turned novelist/columnist uses a military journal as a sounding board years past but ne'r to be forgotten by certain elements addicted to conspiracy fantasies. Hardly the U.S. armed forces or even U.S. Army. Beaten to death to boot.

Just one guy at one point in his life.

Lighten up, Francis.:lol:
 
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"I stand by what I say!"

Just so you don't conflate your thoughts with the expressed intent of the GoP we'll be fine if in eternal disagreement.

I can't keep you from choosing to swim upstream against the rest of mankind.
 
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They are showing greater resolve now than they showed in Afghanistan which they ruled in 2001!

Why did they run on their donkeys and the backs of motorcycles when the time was there to stand up and fight?

Idiots, they will die a useless death.

our biggest mistake. we let them retreat into our areas. now they are being squeezed from both sides. they have no where to run and no where to hide, thus the "greater resolve".
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM : I do fully respect your views, but beg to disagree with the fundamental premises on which they are based.

Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan guaranteed the autonomous status of FATA back in 1947. He was a visionary, had deep insight into the specific demographic and geographical compulsions of this area. Within 3 months of the creation of Pakistan, an estimated 30,000 remnants of former Indian Army, stationed in FATA since 19th century were withdrawn.

US / NATO played the game of “bombing into the stone age” with the Musharraf regime and won without firing a shot. The assumption that in the event Pakistan Army did not launch operations the US forces would have invaded FATA does not stand to reason. In fact, the US forces should have been encouraged to try their luck, probably that would have brought their Afghan adventure to an end much ealier! In the event of an outright US invasion Pakistan would have rid itself of the self imposed “obligation” to provide logistics, bases, air space and force protection. The US would have quickly learnt the hard lesson that it is very easy to capture FATA, but very expensive to hold on.

Pakistan Government forfeited its writ for the simple fact that it had forfeited its own sovereignty and dignity as a Nation State by acting as a surrogate for the US (at least that is the way majority of Pakistani citizens see it. “Disarm and Comply” is not a viable option on two counts (i) Pashtun tradition and the right to bear arms (a la the US constitution) (ii) Getting butchered like lambs without putting up a fight is not a very bright idea.

Pakistan was carved out of British India on the basis of Islamic ideology; in fact the NWFP joined Pakistan per choice in the 1946 referendum. No matter how much we tout our enlightened moderation and secularist credentials; ideology remain our only differentiator as a Nation.
 
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our biggest mistake. we let them retreat into our areas. now they are being squeezed from both sides. they have no where to run and no where to hide, thus the "greater resolve".

I guess it also has to do with their perception that they would be successful if they can sustain it, that they have sufficient backing from some powerful quarters and that the USA will cut their losses at some point and go back.

Once they are given some well directed good beatings and this perception of the ultimate victory changes (mainly by making sure they have no strong backing), they will melt away.
 
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A hidden enemy on the frontier

Hot spot ... a Pakistani tank on patrol in the Bajur region on the Afghan border where Pakistan is trying to rout militant groups.

Paul McGeough US Outpost 4, Afghanistan

December 17, 2008

THE pointy end of war is a dirty business. Lieutenant Joe Walsh and his men at this pimple-on-a-bunion observation post on the Afghan border have gone more than three weeks without a shower.

Personal hygiene stops at baby wipes. Charged with the business of monitoring Taliban fighters sneaking in from Pakistan, Walsh maintains a small friendly gesture in what has become a tense stand-off between Washington and Islamabad over how best to deal with an ethereal cross-border insurgency.

This war may be fought at the cutting edge of US technology but the gesture comes in the form of a World War II leftover: a 1944 US military field phone.

Walsh's six-box outpost - called OP4 - is on a high, windswept ridge, about 700 metres short of where the disputed frontier is thought to be. Down the valley and up the opposite slope is what the Americans call the Grey Castle, an other-worldly construction that is a Pakistani outpost.

Several months ago, a US soldier was sent down the valley, dragging a wire behind him. At a hole in the fence he passed the wire and antiquated phone to one of the Pakistanis. Now they talk to each other on a daily basis, how usefully is a moot point.

For some years, the US has reserved the right to launch air strikes in Pakistan, some by unmanned Predator drones. In July, the US President, George Bush, took even greater liberty with Pakistan's sovereignty when he authorised secret cross-border ground operations by US Special Forces - without seeking Islamabad's approval.

The Americans appear to be working a good-cop, bad-cop strategy.

In background briefings to reporters in Washington, senior US officials bad-mouth Islamabad's lack of will or capacity to counter the insurgents. And they foster a belief in sections of the Pakistani security services that they can manipulate the Taliban to weaken the Kabul Government, which, from Islamabad, is seen as part of a pincer move by India and the US to weaken Pakistan, the world's only nuclear-armed Muslim power.

In Afghanistan, however, senior US military officials speak in qualified praise for the Pakistani military effort on sections of the border. They cite Pakistani crackdowns as a reason for increased violence in Afghanistan as militants flee across the frontier. At the same time, the Americans praise the attendance of Pakistani officers at contact meetings with their US counterparts and their subsequent battlefield co-operation.

A US general, who spoke to the Herald on background because of the sensitivity of some of the issues discussed, insists that his Pakistani counterparts are undergoing a genuine change of heart. "My take is this," he says. "Pakistan has a professionally trained army with limited counterinsurgency experience, which, in strategic terms, sees India as a greater threat than whatever is happening in the tribal areas on the border."

Describing fear as a "wonderful" motivator, he says: "At least some of them now realise that there is a significant threat to Pakistan by the Islamists and, unless they do something about it quickly, that threat might equal or exceed the threat from India."

Using military jargon to describe his Pakistani counterparts, he says that "PakMil" effectively is the state in Pakistan. "The preservation of the state and the prestige of the army are the two essentials - if there is a threat to either, PakMil will react to it …

"I sense there is a big shift. They understand al-Qaeda and the rest of that bunch and they don't like them. They are not faking it."

For the US observers at OP4, the lack of water is not at the top of their list of discomforts.

Higher on the list are the regular barrages of rockets and mortars: 16 mortars in a matter of hours recently; and later, 40 rockets over nine straight days.

Close to the top of the ridge is the near-vertical staircase of 230 thigh-testing steps, which link the mountaintop boxes from which they maintain their watch to a supply-and-service depot lower on the mountain.

Some of the men go up and down as many as six or eight times a day. At the top of the mountain the wind bites but the view is stunning. In one direction, the rolling ridges look like Bass Strait in late December, except the water had turned a frozen shade of brown. In another direction, more distant ridges fade one into the next, in deepening shades of blue. And in a third direction is the Dashta - a desert-like plain that bleeds from Afghanistan into Pakistan.

The US soldiers use powerful telescopes to scan all approaches. Suspicious movements are reported for aerial or ground investigation.

The launch point of any incoming bombs or rockets is reported, too: they go up the line for approval to have the attackers wiped out by mortar fire from OP4; or by the 155mm Howitzer cannons stationed at nearby Forward Operating Base Tillman; or with a missile strike fired from one of the US aircraft that seem to be overhead permanently.

During a visit to OP4, Captain Dave Conner, who is the unwashed Walsh's commanding officer, tries to talk up the new era of co-operation with the Pakistanis. "Here, we have a working relationship with an English-speaking commander - it's good."

Walsh is not so sure. "Yeah, sir," he says. "I think they tell us what they think we want to hear.

"When we give them the co-ordinates for the bad guys and ask them to patrol, they come back with nothing. Then they tell us that everything is fine."

Sydney Morning Herald - Business News, World News & Breaking News in Australia
 
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This war may be fought at the cutting edge of US technology but the gesture comes in the form of a World War II leftover: a 1944 US military field phone.

absolutely amazing! anyway if it works, why fix it!
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM : I do fully respect your views, but beg to disagree with the fundamental premises on which they are based.

Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan guaranteed the autonomous status of FATA back in 1947. He was a visionary, had deep insight into the specific demographic and geographical compulsions of this area. Within 3 months of the creation of Pakistan, an estimated 30,000 remnants of former Indian Army, stationed in FATA since 19th century were withdrawn.

US / NATO played the game of “bombing into the stone age” with the Musharraf regime and won without firing a shot. The assumption that in the event Pakistan Army did not launch operations the US forces would have invaded FATA does not stand to reason. In fact, the US forces should have been encouraged to try their luck, probably that would have brought their Afghan adventure to an end much ealier! In the event of an outright US invasion Pakistan would have rid itself of the self imposed “obligation” to provide logistics, bases, air space and force protection. The US would have quickly learnt the hard lesson that it is very easy to capture FATA, but very expensive to hold on.

Pakistan Government forfeited its writ for the simple fact that it had forfeited its own sovereignty and dignity as a Nation State by acting as a surrogate for the US (at least that is the way majority of Pakistani citizens see it. “Disarm and Comply” is not a viable option on two counts (i) Pashtun tradition and the right to bear arms (a la the US constitution) (ii) Getting butchered like lambs without putting up a fight is not a very bright idea.

Pakistan was carved out of British India on the basis of Islamic ideology; in fact the NWFP joined Pakistan per choice in the 1946 referendum. No matter how much we tout our enlightened moderation and secularist credentials; ideology remain our only differentiator as a Nation.


I am very much in-synch with your last paragrapgh but trust me if you didnt enter the FATA US would have and that would have been a dream come true from strategic prespective for them, we had no option and try to persuade these thick heads with carrot and stick that they are providing the reasoning for long term ulterior goal chalked out by US for Pakistan.

No one gives a Damn to WoT but can't you see that Taliban are ruling the villages in FATA just like they did in in Afghanistan. With absolute perfection and deadly accuracy they are destroying the local culture and ruling system of FATA. The very basis of FATA society is their reliance on Jirga and "Amiadin of the areas". Can you tell me how many local tribal elders have been killed by Taliban and why? and many more have zipped up their mouths against the horrors of Taliban.
I dont subscribe to Taliban Ideology nor should we as a Nation. If for any reason as Nation we decide to follow these detracked and mislead thugs trust me we have very bumpy road ahead and the first thing popping and falling out of our lap in these bumps are our nuclear assests. These Talibans have been forced on our Tribal Areas very systematically .
 
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These Talibans have been forced on our Tribal Areas very systematically .

wrong my dear friend. we allowed them the sanctuary when they were fleeing from afghanistan. had we stopped them cold at the borders, which by the way we could have if we had the political and military will at that time, and therefore, we would not be in the quagmire we are in the FATA. it is going to take some time. one reaps what one sows !!!
 
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AgNoStIc MuSliM : I do fully respect your views, but beg to disagree with the fundamental premises on which they are based.

Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan guaranteed the autonomous status of FATA back in 1947. He was a visionary, had deep insight into the specific demographic and geographical compulsions of this area. Within 3 months of the creation of Pakistan, an estimated 30,000 remnants of former Indian Army, stationed in FATA since 19th century were withdrawn.

US / NATO played the game of “bombing into the stone age” with the Musharraf regime and won without firing a shot. The assumption that in the event Pakistan Army did not launch operations the US forces would have invaded FATA does not stand to reason. In fact, the US forces should have been encouraged to try their luck, probably that would have brought their Afghan adventure to an end much ealier! In the event of an outright US invasion Pakistan would have rid itself of the self imposed “obligation” to provide logistics, bases, air space and force protection. The US would have quickly learnt the hard lesson that it is very easy to capture FATA, but very expensive to hold on.
I have to disagree with the fundamental premise you base your argument on.

What you have argued for is any and all abdication of responsibility and sovereignty as a state over FATA and the actions emanating from it.

Even if Pakistan had not supported the WoT, the fact is that FATA is a part of Pakistan, and therefore Pakistan has a responsibility to ensure that its territory is not used for attacks domestically or on other nations. You suggest that we should have just pulled back and let the Americans do whatever they want - a shameless argument if I ever heard one. While Pakistan has not entirely prevented US intervention in FATA, that intervention is nowhere close to what would happen were we to allow the US carte blanche in FATA as you suggest, had we not supported the WoT.

Secondly, the war would not have remained limited to FATA, were the US allowed in. The militants would merely move deeper and deeper into Pakistan as their sanctuaries in FATA ceased to provide safety. And what next, when the violence and sanctuaries in FATA shift East, as they most likely will under relentless US assaults?

Would you then also surrender Dir, Swat, Chitral, the NWFP and Peshawar, the Northern Areas?

Should we just let the Yanks go in wherever they are attacked from and 'try their luck', as you suggest?

You may be perfectly fine living in a nation that is reduced to rubble like Afghanistan is, and then when one day the US tires and leaves, exhibiting a show of bravado by standing tall upon the ruins of hopes, dreams and lives and declaring, in the name of Allah of course, that 'we have achieved victory by chasing the infidels from our land'.

I am not.
Pakistan Government forfeited its writ for the simple fact that it had forfeited its own sovereignty and dignity as a Nation State by acting as a surrogate for the US (at least that is the way majority of Pakistani citizens see it. “Disarm and Comply” is not a viable option on two counts (i) Pashtun tradition and the right to bear arms (a la the US constitution) (ii) Getting butchered like lambs without putting up a fight is not a very bright idea.

Pakistan was carved out of British India on the basis of Islamic ideology; in fact the NWFP joined Pakistan per choice in the 1946 referendum. No matter how much we tout our enlightened moderation and secularist credentials; ideology remain our only differentiator as a Nation
Pakistan did not forfeit its writ until the Taliban militias forced that upon us.

Pakistan allowed logistical support and overflights for the NATO invasion of Afghanistan - that had nothing to do with Pakistani writ or actions taken by NATO on Pakistani territory. NATO could have, with more expense, gotten her supplies through the CAR's. For a nation spending billions a month in Iraq that is not an insurmountable hurdle.

The Taliban chose to seek refuge in Pakistan, which perhaps can be excused. The Taliban militias then chose to attack targets in Afghanistan from Pakistani territory, that is not fine - the Taliban militias had now conducted military operations from Pakistani soil on another nation, they had therefore put all of Pakistan at risk and violated the writ of the Pakistani State.

The GoP's actions occurred after her writ had been challenged by the Taliban militias.

On your points raised about disarmament:

1. The 'right to bear weapons' is a canard raised to deflect attention form the real issue here and what the 'disarmament' condition by the GoP implies.

The 'right to bear weapons' does not allow for rocket launchers, AA Guns, IED's, rockets and mortars. They want to keep a rifle and AK-XX's, be our guest - no one is questioning that. Disarming also means the disbanding of militias that have destroyed the traditional form of administration and imposed their own law. These are perfectly reasonable conditions.

2. The disarmament condition is a prerequisite to halting operations. If the Taliban militias are not fighting, they won't be getting butchered.

I prefer that Pakistan fulfill her responsibilities as a state, and maintain her honor and dignity in the comity of nations, by herself acting to prevent hostile acts from being initiated from her territory, as well as preventing hostile acts being committed on her territory, such as the demolition of schools, businesses and the forced imposition of a perverted form of Islam.
 
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The Taliban chose to seek refuge in Pakistan, which perhaps can be excused.

no AM this was the start of the problem and therefore can not be excused !!!
 
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